View Poll Results: Is the Federal Reserve System a scam?

Voters
38. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, the Fed is a private for-profit institution that's secretly stealing the wealth of the nation

    37 97.37%
  • No, the Fed is a non-profit organization that returns it's profits to the US Treasury

    1 2.63%
  • I'm not sure

    0 0%
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Results 31 to 57 of 57

Thread: Is the Federal Reserve System a scam?

  1. #31
    Money is just a commodity. As such, it can be produced, distributed, etc., like any other commodity.



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  3. #32
    I think it is more a medium of exchange than a commodity. You can use a commodity as a medium of exchange but you can't use money the way you can commodities. A commodity can be combined with something else to produce things. Wheat can be used to produce bread. Gold can be used to produce jewelry or electronics. Oil can produce heat and can lubricate machines. Most money is just electronic.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 07-24-2014 at 02:14 PM.



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    So we would have Bank of America, Wells Fargo, and the like in charge of the money supply- able to produce as much as they want.
    Would have?

    Would have?

    Cute attempt at dishonesty. Yeah, that sounds horrible. What's more, it is horrible. And it has been horrible for the last hundred years.

    We've told the Zippy Account dozens of times who owns the Fed. Quiz time, newbie. Who owns the Federal Reserve?
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You only want the freedoms that will undermine the nation and lead to the destruction of liberty.

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    I think it is more a medium of exchange than a commodity. You can use a commodity as a medium of exchange but you can't use money the way you can commodities. A commodity can be combined with something else to produce things. Wheat can be used to produce bread. Gold can be used to produce jewelry or electronics. Oil can produce heat and can lubricate machines. Most money is just electronic.
    Money can be whatever people want it to be. In a free market, and even in an un-free one. Depending on what people freely decide what they want to use as money, people can then create, distribute, supply, and produce it (whatever "it" is) however they wish. Effective attempts and methods will outcompete ineffective ones, etc. This is the same way the market currently creates, distributes, supplies, and produces sunscreen, as well as many other products and services and abstractions. It is a system that is proven. It works very well.

    I hope that answers your question.

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Interesting combo. Protecting themselves yet hurting themselves. If they do decide to sell their Treasuries, it will cause interest rates to rise and bond prices to fall- causing them to lose money. (I don't think the intend to sell their Treasury holdings but eventually allow them to mature).

    The part about low interest rates forcing investors into other investments than US government bonds is true though.
    In what way would allowing the deflationary event to happen while holding copious amounts of bonds hurt themselves? Credibility wise, maybe. But in this scenario it would be a loss in credibility of the fed to stave off deflation, which means more perceived risk, which means more demand for bonds.

  8. #36
    Under a debt based currency system, as debts are liquidated, "money" (so called) is destroyed. Zero national debts = Zero national monetary base.

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    I think it is more a medium of exchange than a commodity. You can use a commodity as a medium of exchange but you can't use money the way you can commodities. A commodity can be combined with something else to produce things. Wheat can be used to produce bread. Gold can be used to produce jewelry or electronics. Oil can produce heat and can lubricate machines. Most money is just electronic.


    So Zippy no luck in finding the Jeyll part on the Federal Scam website???? I guess they still want to keep that part secret.

  10. #38
    Yah, OK... lets be clear on what you are doing: you are offering a Federal Reserve Bank article stating that they are audited where the question of audits is one of central importance, the absence of such audits representing a major threat to the economic security of America. It is clear they have no incentive to lie or distort the truth in any fashion.

    Hooboy...
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    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

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    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    What or who would you rather see in charge of the money system? Congress? The banks?
    How about a free market? And before you regale us with and endless torrent of fallacious reasoning designed to make us wet ourselves with fear because the market never comes through, I will remind you that if the market is truly free, it will be strong, which means more and more people will be on that bandwagon and it will be in everyone's better interests to ensure that the market remains strong, since their livelihoods depend entirely on it. That translates into a very strong incentive to be well educated in economics and to ensure that the money or monies in circulation are real and remain that way in perpetuity. This means that those people in the markets will take a decidedly dim view of chicanery. I think you can dope out the rest for yourself.

    I would add that a return to real money and the prosperity that it brings will provide all the reason in the world for someone, somewhere, to develop fast, inexpensive, and reliable technologies for non-destructively validating currencies offered in payment of debts.
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

  12. #40
    Well golly gee wilickers!

    I. Wonder. Who. Voted. No?
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    How about a free market? And before you regale us with and endless torrent of fallacious reasoning designed to make us wet ourselves with fear because the market never comes through, I will remind you that if the market is truly free, it will be strong, which means more and more people will be on that bandwagon and it will be in everyone's better interests to ensure that the market remains strong, since their livelihoods depend entirely on it. That translates into a very strong incentive to be well educated in economics and to ensure that the money or monies in circulation are real and remain that way in perpetuity. This means that those people in the markets will take a decidedly dim view of chicanery. I think you can dope out the rest for yourself.

    I would add that a return to real money and the prosperity that it brings will provide all the reason in the world for someone, somewhere, to develop fast, inexpensive, and reliable technologies for non-destructively validating currencies offered in payment of debts.
    If you mean gold or metal backed currency as "real money", we had "real money" during the Great Depression.

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    If you mean gold or metal backed currency as "real money", we had "real money" during the Great Depression.
    Sort of. The dollar wasn't completely decoupled from gold until 1971. Which is when the middle class stopped growing and started shrinking. It's also the first time since the Civil War that people's life savings began to evaporate, and they had to learn to gamble on the stock market to have any prayer of keeping even.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You only want the freedoms that will undermine the nation and lead to the destruction of liberty.

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    If you mean gold or metal backed currency as "real money", we had "real money" during the Great Depression.
    Until FDR confiscated the publicly owned gold and made it almost totally illegal to own. Confiscated at $20.00/ounce then raised the price to $35.00/ounce. What a scumbag.

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    If you mean gold or metal backed currency as "real money", we had "real money" during the Great Depression.

    Oh the Great Depression which was engineered by the bankers? That one?

    BERNANKE: FEDERAL RESERVE CAUSED GREAT DEPRESSION
    Fed chief says, 'We did it. ... very sorry, won't do it again'
    Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2008/03/59405/#4MKF4KpXoLAlDjoM.99
    http://www.wnd.com/2008/03/59405/
    Last edited by AFTFNJ; 07-26-2014 at 04:14 PM.

  18. #45
    Yes.

    I want to finish reading 'The Creature from Jekyll Island' by G. Edward Griffin.... I had to return it before I could finish it. I remember being extremely pissed off when I learned about how it was set up and how corrupt the whole thing is. And I think many Americans aren't aware of that (maybe that has changed, I don't know). I wish everyone would read that book.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    If you mean gold or metal backed currency as "real money", we had "real money" during the Great Depression.
    The currency supply was expanded on the order of 2/3 during the 1920's whereas the gold stock expanded only on the order of 10-15%. Calling a thing A does not bestow the qualities of A upon the thing.

    For example, one might call you a "brilliant economist" - of course, that doesn't make it so.
    Last edited by buenijo; 07-27-2014 at 10:04 AM.
    "There are no solutions. There are only trade-offs." Thomas Sowell

  20. #47
    This poll is too limited to warrant participation. It presents a false dichotomy. The Fed is best understood as a hybrid of both private and government. It is a government sanctioned banking cartel. It is a partnership between the federal government and the financial industry.

    So it's not private, yet it is "secretly" stealing the wealth of the nation ("secretly" as in a manner not widely perceived nor understood).
    Last edited by buenijo; 07-27-2014 at 09:05 AM.
    "There are no solutions. There are only trade-offs." Thomas Sowell

  21. #48
    It is a partnership between the federal government and the financial industry.
    The 12 Federal Reserve Banks are owned by their private member banks, like Bank of America, Citigroup, and JPM.

    And on the government side, the head of the Fed is appointed by the President and has to testify in front of Congress on I believe a semi-annual basis.

    But the Fed Chief can tell them anything he wants, he's not legally required to tell them anything he doesn't want to



    The whole testimony before Congress is a farce and only presents the illusion that the politicians have some measure of control over the Fed, when in truth, they do not.

    So if member banks own the Fed through stock, and Congress can't tell them what to do in really any regard, this is more in line with a completely private corporation than with an entity which is half public and half private.

    There's no "partnership" at all; it's just the banks doing whatever the Hell they want.
    Last edited by DFF; 07-27-2014 at 11:05 PM.



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  23. #49
    DFF, if you prefer, you might consider it a partnership between elements of the federal government and elements of the financial industry. It might also be considered that elements of the financial industry have infiltrated the federal government. In any case, it is absurd to consider the Federal Reserve as a private entity.

    The banks are afforded special privileges by federal law. Are these same privileges afforded to all "private" entities? Not making a distinction between the Fed and "private" entities is just plain disingenuous and/or sloppy.

    Do you not see that the federal government (or at least elements therein) benefit with a central bank? Do not partnerships afford benefits to all members? If you haven't read Griffin, then do not reply.
    Last edited by buenijo; 07-29-2014 at 11:22 AM.
    "There are no solutions. There are only trade-offs." Thomas Sowell

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    If you mean gold or metal backed currency as "real money", we had "real money" during the Great Depression.
    We had "real money" and "fiat currency" at the same time. The Fiat Currency is what caused the Great Depression because they turned on the printing presses. And the following Depression, and the next one, and the one after that too, and every Depression since.
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  25. #51
    For those who have +repped me, thanks. For those who may also be interested, here's a link to a better free PDF copy of:

    THE CREATURE FROM JEKYLL ISLAND
    A Second Look at the Federal Reserve
    Third edition
    http://api.ning.com/files/tEqTVE0uvp...Island1994.pdf

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by DFF View Post
    The 12 Federal Reserve Banks are owned by their private member banks, like Bank of America, Citigroup, and JPM.

    And on the government side, the head of the Fed is appointed by the President and has to testify in front of Congress on I believe a semi-annual basis.

    But the Fed Chief can tell them anything he wants, he's not legally required to tell them anything he doesn't want to


    The whole testimony before Congress is a farce and only presents the illusion that the politicians have some measure of control over the Fed, when in truth, they do not.

    So if member banks own the Fed through stock, and Congress can't tell them what to do in really any regard, this is more in line with a completely private corporation than with an entity which is half public and half private.

    There's no "partnership" at all; it's just the banks doing whatever the Hell they want.

    "Owning" isn't quite accurate. It is technically true that they own "shares" in the Federal Reserve, but those are not like typical stock shares- they are more "membership fees" like you might pay to join a Credit Union. To join the Federal Reserve System, a member bank is required to turn over to the Fed ten percent of their total assets- in exchange they are given "shares". Those shares, unlike traditional shares, cannot be sold to anybody else or traded and they carry no voting power or say in what the Fed does. They do get paid a six percent annual dividend on the value of those shares and they give the member bank access to the services the Federal Reserve offers but that is all.

    http://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/about_14986.htm

    Who owns the Federal Reserve?

    The Federal Reserve System fulfills its public mission as an independent entity within government. It is not "owned" by anyone and is not a private, profit-making institution.

    As the nation's central bank, the Federal Reserve derives its authority from the Congress of the United States. It is considered an independent central bank because its monetary policy decisions do not have to be approved by the President or anyone else in the executive or legislative branches of government, it does not receive funding appropriated by the Congress, and the terms of the members of the Board of Governors span multiple presidential and congressional terms.

    However, the Federal Reserve is subject to oversight by the Congress, which often reviews the Federal Reserve's activities and can alter its responsibilities by statute. Therefore, the Federal Reserve can be more accurately described as "independent within the government" rather than "independent of government."

    The 12 regional Federal Reserve Banks, which were established by the Congress as the operating arms of the nation's central banking system, are organized similarly to private corporations--possibly leading to some confusion about "ownership." For example, the Reserve Banks issue shares of stock to member banks. However, owning Reserve Bank stock is quite different from owning stock in a private company. The Reserve Banks are not operated for profit, and ownership of a certain amount of stock is, by law, a condition of membership in the System. The stock may not be sold, traded, or pledged as security for a loan; dividends are, by law, 6 percent per year.

  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    I think it is more a medium of exchange than a commodity. You can use a commodity as a medium of exchange but you can't use money the way you can commodities. A commodity can be combined with something else to produce things. Wheat can be used to produce bread. Gold can be used to produce jewelry or electronics. Oil can produce heat and can lubricate machines. Most money is just electronic.
    How about another perspective:

    Federal Reserve Notes are not money. They are certainly a medium of exchange. However, this quality was only one of many that money possessed. Gold is no longer a medium of exchange. Nor is silver. Therefore, these also are not money. Sure, most definitions would suggest otherwise. However, consider that gold and silver when they were used as a medium of exchange or used as a base for the currency, then the medium of exchange had certain qualities not presently achieved by any other medium of exchange. If something does not have the same qualities as what was once called money, then it should not be called money. Money has ceased to exist.
    "There are no solutions. There are only trade-offs." Thomas Sowell

  28. #54
    Money has ceased to exist.
    What does your employer give you in exchange for your labor? What do you use to pay your bills with?

    However, consider that gold and silver when they were used as a medium of exchange or used as a base for the currency, then the medium of exchange had certain qualities not presently achieved by any other medium of exchange.
    What were these qualities?

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    What does your employer give you in exchange for your labor? What do you use to pay your bills with?

    What were these qualities?
    Note that I am presenting this perspective only to illustrate a certain dynamic. You or anyone else will not likely appreciate the argument without accepting the underlying definitions. That's fine - it's not my intention. In any case, there is a difference between one system that uses a currency with the feedback (which is physical in nature) provided by a base in the precious metals (which was money by tradition), and the system we have today that provides a very different feedback (which is political in nature). The point I wish to make is that considering these two radically different systems as using "money" obscures the distinctions between the two systems and can even destroy underlying concepts (as Orwell argued).

    So, under the rhetorical definitions I am considering, I say my employer gives me currency in exchange for my labor where currency is a medium of exchange. I consider money to have all the qualities of a currency plus providing a store of value over indefinitely long periods. However, the most important quality of money is not its ability to store value, but its ability to coordinate production in a capital intensive economy. It does this by generating stable money prices that allow profits to be a reliable guide for the creation of value. Without stability in the price structure, then capital cannot be allocated efficiently and value creation cannot be optimized nor sustained. The effects of this process (often called "malinvestment" by the so-called Austrian economists) are cumulative over time. Maintaining the system finally makes wealth creation on net balance impossible while also introducing the perverse incentives of war and other interventions to shore up the system including the disgusting euphemism "financial oppression" (otherwise known as looting) which describes the practice of maintaining negative interest rates that punishes savers (the source for capital and the foundation for all capitalist economies).
    Last edited by buenijo; 07-28-2014 at 07:04 PM.
    "There are no solutions. There are only trade-offs." Thomas Sowell

  30. #56
    Thank you for elaborating on your point.



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  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    "Owning" isn't quite accurate. It is technically true that they own "shares" in the Federal Reserve, but those are not like typical stock shares- they are more "membership fees" like you might pay to join a Credit Union. To join the Federal Reserve System, a member bank is required to turn over to the Fed ten percent of their total assets- in exchange they are given "shares". Those shares, unlike traditional shares, cannot be sold to anybody else or traded and they carry no voting power or say in what the Fed does. They do get paid a six percent annual dividend on the value of those shares and they give the member bank access to the services the Federal Reserve offers but that is all.

    http://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/about_14986.htm
    So it is a public corporation?
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