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Thread: What is Your Position on Global Warming / Climate Change?

  1. #1

    What is Your Position on Global Warming / Climate Change?

    Please read the following carefully before making any replies.

    I am curious to know the positions of those active on the forum with respect to Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW) (otherwise known as Climate Change). I am interested to know largely because I've found that there exists ambiguity surrounding the issue, and this includes a general vagueness in the terms used to describe the (alleged) phenomenon. Therefore, I provide definitions in the hope of achieving clarity. Please try to operate within these definitions.

    AGW is the phenomenon by which the green house gas (GHG) emissions associated with human activities (including but not limited to CO2 derived from the combustion of fossil fuels) is increasing the net concentration of GHG's in the atmosphere. The resulting dynamic acts to increase average global temperatures to levels higher than they would achieve otherwise (i.e. without the emissions). In any case, the climate is affected by the process. Note that this definition does not imply that our GHG emissions will necessarily cause a warming trend. Rather, it implies that it could cause a warming trend, merely contribute to a warming trend, or perhaps it might only mitigate a cooling trend.

    By this definition, it's possible for many to accept the AGW position, yet take widely disparate views. For example, one proponent of AGW might take the position that climate science is young and incomplete. Therefore, we do not yet have the understanding nor the tools with which to make accurate forecasts. Those on this end of the AGW spectrum advise against any interventions (governmental or otherwise) designed to alleviate the AGW dynamic. Conversely, those on the other end of the AGW spectrum might argue that the science is settled, and that it indicates GHG emissions derived from human activities to be affecting climate in ways that will prove detrimental to ecosystems and life on Earth in general. Among these AGW proponents include those who advocate for aggressive governmental interventions including all manner of taxes and regulations, as well as those who do not advocate for such interventions by considering them unlikely to have a net benefit. At the far end of the spectrum are those who argue that it's too late - our GHG emissions to date will cause the imminent extinction of the human race along with other species.

    Now, I realize this is a broad definition. However, I selected it because I've come to understand that the oft-cited "consensus" among scientists on the AGW issue can include individuals with positions that lie anywhere along this spectrum. By contrast, there are those who deny emphatically that GHG emissions by humans can have any effect whatever on climate.

    So, what position do you take:
    (1) Do you accept the AGW position, or
    (2) Do you deny it categorically.

    ... furthermore, if (1), then where on the spectrum does your position lie? Also, if (2), then what evidence might convince you otherwise (if any)?

    NOTE: Please refrain from engaging in dialog during the course of this thread as I hope to limit its scope.
    Last edited by buenijo; 07-08-2014 at 05:51 PM.
    "There are no solutions. There are only trade-offs." Thomas Sowell



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  3. #2
    there is no such thing as man made global warming.
    “[T]he enshrinement of constitutional rights necessarily takes certain policy choices off the table.” (Heller, 554 U.S., at ___, 128 S.Ct., at 2822.)

    How long before "going liberal" replaces "going postal"?

  4. #3
    A better question is why were temperatures warmer back in the 1300s and why were CO2 concentrations higher in the 1300s and why was the ocean level about the same and why did crops yields grow in so many areas?

    Why don't people consider that we just came out of a mini-ice age in the late 1700s and why wouldn't the climate be in a general warming trend after coming out of a mini-ice age?

    Just asking those questions pretty much debunks MMGW theories because those theories assume that temperatures are higher than they have been for thousands of years and that atmospheric CO2 concentrations have been higher than they ever were before industrialization and that just isn't true.
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  5. #4
    I am not convinced that human actions have enough of an impact to actually change the climate. Certainly, we can effect the atmosphere to a certain extent, but with all of the other factors, it's hard to know if it has any substantial effect on climate. We know that we can pollute the environment and the air, especially ground level air pollution, but I would never categorize the common components of the lower troposphere as pollution.

    The AGW hypothesis is untestable. Too many uncontrolled parameters, and many with far more weight than human actions.
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    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by mrsat_98 View Post
    there is no such thing as man made global warming.
    I would agree and add that since we clearly are not in an ice age.
    the climate has both changed and global warming has also occurred.
    both had NOTHING to do with us.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

    "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. - Thomas Jefferson.

  7. #6
    Recently, past few years, there was some significant evidence that several planets in the solar system were experiencing planetary climate warming at the same time. I really doubt that humans are/were responsible for all (any) of them.

  8. #7
    I think the yearly 100,000+ acre wildfires out west probably put more carbon into the atmosphere than a billion internal combustion engines do in a decade.
    I too have been a close observer of the doings of the Bank of the United States...When you won, you divided the profits amongst you, and when you lost, you charged it to the bank...You are a den of vipers and thieves. I have determined to rout you out, and by the Eternal, I will rout you out!

    Andrew Jackson, 1834

  9. #8
    I take the position that, while I accept the premise that GHG emissions from human activities can affect the climate system, I emphasize that we do not have the means to quantify or characterize how these effects will manifest. I state with perfect confidence that there is no reason (i.e. there is insufficient evidence) to expect climate to change in any material manner due to the GHG emissions from human activities. Furthermore, I note that many politicians have exaggerated some claims of the underlying science, and that the objectivity of scientists working in the field has been compromised by a resulting public outcry. The institutions that support the science of climate and environmental science in general have expanded many fold in the face of a widely perceived threat of global warming. Today, these institutions are now wholly dependent on the tax dollars derived from this perceived threat. I do not believe it's possible for the science to be objective under these conditions. Under these conditions, people will see (and have seen) what they want to see. My position is scientific skepticism.
    Last edited by buenijo; 07-08-2014 at 05:53 PM.
    "There are no solutions. There are only trade-offs." Thomas Sowell



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    Recently, past few years, there was some significant evidence that several planets in the solar system were experiencing planetary climate warming at the same time. I really doubt that humans are/were responsible for all (any) of them.
    THIS^

    There is no such thing as man-made climate change.

  12. #10
    It was mini ice age in the 70/80s, then global scamming in the 90s, and now they rename it to climate change. Whatever it is next that the liberal communist think of next, more money will go into their coffer. It's not about the environment stupid!

    Here's a report from the guy who founded the Weather Channel, if anyone should have any authority about environmental expertise.

    Oh, and a little bit of where the global warming scare came from. The mentor of Al Gore warned that global warming should not be politicized until the data are in. Too bad for him they are now using his name for a scam award against his own will. He must be spinning in his grave.

    Last edited by Nolan; 07-08-2014 at 06:50 PM.

  13. #11
    xxxxx
    Last edited by Voluntarist; 05-08-2016 at 04:19 PM.
    You have the right to remain silent. Anything you post to the internet can and will be used to humiliate you.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by buenijo View Post
    I am curious to know the positions of those active on the forum with respect to Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW) (otherwise known as Climate Change).
    I'm lock-step with Hillary on this:

    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by mrsat_98 View Post
    there is no such thing as man made global warming.
    I take it you flat out deny it

    I hope you're not the same conspiracy theorist who thinks chemtrails cause weather modification and HAARP causes earthquakes

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Nolan View Post
    It was mini ice age in the 70/80s, then global scamming in the 90s, and now they rename it to climate change.
    Please refrain from posting PRATT http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Point_r...thousand_times

    1. No, the scientific consensus in 70s was NOT forecasting a mini ice age (it was media sensationalism)
    http://www.skepticalscience.com/ice-...s-in-1970s.htm

    2. Climate change was not a recent Orwellian change in terms, what do you think IPCC founded in 1988 stands for?
    http://www.skepticalscience.com/clim...al-warming.htm

    So, when you want to share a snarky talking point, try to spare yourself the embarrassment and look up whether there's a response to it first, will ya?

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by willwash View Post
    I think the yearly 100,000+ acre wildfires out west probably put more carbon into the atmosphere than a billion internal combustion engines do in a decade.
    that's like saying natural deaths exceed murders, therefore we should act like murders never happen or do nothing to prevent them.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post

    The AGW hypothesis is untestable. Too many uncontrolled parameters, and many with far more weight than human actions.
    It's untestable?

    So any and all predictions of future climate and temperatures are equally valid?

    What's your list of uncontrolled parameters we need to pay attention to?

    You ALREADY know they outweigh human actions huh? So you must know what they are and how great its impact is.



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  20. #17
    We burn ungodly joules of fossilized $#@! daily,

    that would have otherwise been trapped underground for eons.

    I don't give a $#@! about carbon.

    If a butterfly can flap its wings and cause a typhoon,

    the ongoing fire alone undoubtedly makes the climate different.


    The only quick things I can think of that I want my government to do about it:

    Deregulate the auto industry.
    Stop subsidizing the oil and electric industries.
    Stop pissing out fuel on foreign empire building.
    Outlaw building codes.
    Provide tax breaks to citizens before BP Exxon and Shell
    Stop providing government financed indemnification to energy companies
    End EPA permits for environmental destruction and allow individuals to sue for damages.
    Defund the DOE
    End the "emmissions" regulations for wood burning appliances

    I guess I could go on and on...
    Last edited by presence; 07-08-2014 at 10:52 PM.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    Recently, past few years, there was some significant evidence that several planets in the solar system were experiencing planetary climate warming at the same time. I really doubt that humans are/were responsible for all (any) of them.
    http://www.skepticalscience.com/glob...termediate.htm

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    If a butterfly can flap its wings and cause a typhoon,
    Who said that?

  23. #20
    Do we have an effect? Sure.

    Is it something that is a significant contributor that makes a real difference to the climate? (Real difference being what would have happened anyway due to natural climate change that has always and will always occur). I don't think the case has been made at all that we do, I also feel that Al Gore and many others have a vested financial interest in promoting the global warming, erm, global climate change agenda. There have been numerous cases where Al Gore in his book, and various scientists in their studies have been caught fudging the numbers and also discussing amongst themselves fudging the numbers - i.e. its not honest human error, it is manipulation.

    I remember in 5th grade many eons ago being taught how the earth does have a natural ability to correct things. Extra CO2 causes warming, this causes Algae to grow more plentifully in the ocean, this absorbs the CO2 and temperatures drop. That's what I remember from 40 years ago. Also climate isn't something that is measured over years or decades - climate is extremely long term and tends to level out fluctuations which we have (in the 70s and 80s we were being scare mongered with global cooling and the coming Ice Age). So now they have settled on climate change so now any movement in either direction can be blamed on CO2 and we need those carbon credits that Al Gore has been saving up to sell us.

    I wouldn't say I am a denier, but I am a skeptic.
    "The journalist is one who separates the wheat from the chaff, and then prints the chaff." - Adlai Stevenson

    “I tell you that virtue does not come from money: but from virtue comes money and all other good things to man, both to the individual and to the state.” - Socrates

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Original_Intent View Post
    So now they have settled on climate change so now any movement in either direction can be blamed on CO2 and we need those carbon credits that Al Gore has been saving up to sell us.
    First of all, no, we do not need anybody's carbon credits, or taxes, for the matter. Whether you accept the scientific conclusions do not mean you must accept regulations as a result.

    Next,
    Please refrain from posting PRATT http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Point_r...thousand_times


    1. No, the scientific consensus in 70s was NOT forecasting a mini ice age (it was media sensationalism)
    http://www.skepticalscience.com/ice-...s-in-1970s.htm


    2. Climate change was not a recent Orwellian change in terms, what do you think IPCC founded in 1988 stands for?
    http://www.skepticalscience.com/clim...al-warming.htm

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by PRB View Post
    Who said that?
    Lorenz

    In chaos theory, the butterfly effect is the sensitive dependency on initial conditions in which a small change at one place in a deterministic nonlinear system can result in large differences in a later state. The name of the effect, coined by Edward Lorenz, is derived from the theoretical example of the details of a hurricane (exact time of formation, exact path taken) being influenced by minor perturbations equating to the flapping of the wings of a distant butterfly several weeks earlier. Lorenz discovered the effect when he observed that runs of his weather model with initial condition data that was rounded in a seemingly inconsequential manner would fail to reproduce the results of runs with the unrounded initial condition data. A very small change in initial conditions had created a significantly different outcome.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  26. #23
    If our impact is significant, I'm pretty sure the government will do all the wrong things about it. They will not, for example, stop using afterburners every weekend training weekend warriors to fly obsolete fighter jets (jet engines not only burning a hell of a lot of fuel, but dumping their exhaust high in the atmosphere rather than down where the plants are). And they will make the rich richer and the poor poorer in the process. The government plays at developing alternatives, subsidizing corn squeezin' for fuel when there are far better alternatives, and all the while fights (with jet aircraft) all of the Middle East for their oil.

    That said, we aren't doing anything that one good eruption from Krakatoa won't more than neutralize, at least for a couple of years.

    We like to be arrogant enough to think we are the major impact on the earth. We aren't. But government will play on that desire, and use it to screw us. I don't care to be a party to that. And so long as government is playing this game, I don't think it will be possible to know what our net effect is.

    We need to make intelligent decisions about this. We won't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You only want the freedoms that will undermine the nation and lead to the destruction of liberty.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    If our impact is significant, I'm pretty sure the government will do all the wrong things about it. They will not, for example, stop using afterburners every weekend training weekend warriors to fly obsolete fighter jets (jet engines not only burning a hell of a lot of fuel, but dumping their exhaust high in the atmosphere rather than down where the plants are). And they will make the rich richer and the poor poorer in the process. The government plays at developing alternatives, subsidizing corn squeezin' for fuel when there are far better alternatives, and all the while fights (with jet aircraft) all of the Middle East for their oil.

    That said, we aren't doing anything that one good eruption from Krakatoa won't more than neutralize, at least for a couple of years.

    We like to be arrogant enough to think we are the major impact on the earth. We aren't. But government will play on that desire, and use it to screw us. I don't care to be a party to that. And so long as government is playing this game, I don't think it will be possible to know what our net effect is.

    We need to make intelligent decisions about this. We won't.
    The government can play the game, but you don't need to.

    i can't change the government's mind, but I don't need to lie about the science to reject its regulations.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by PRB View Post
    The government can play the game, but you don't need to.

    i can't change the government's mind, but I don't need to lie about the science to reject its regulations.
    I find it camouflages the science so effectively I can't make head nor tail out of it. If we could drag the government kicking and screaming out of the scientists' wallets, we might be able to figure out what is going on and what to do about it. Until then, we're mushrooms. We're kept in the dark and fed $#@!.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You only want the freedoms that will undermine the nation and lead to the destruction of liberty.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    I find it camouflages the science so effectively I can't make head nor tail out of it. If we could drag the government kicking and screaming out of the scientists' wallets, we might be able to figure out what is going on and what to do about it. Until then, we're mushrooms. We're kept in the dark and fed $#@!.
    do you know this skepticism to ALL parts of science? or just climate?

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by PRB View Post
    do you know this skepticism to ALL parts of science? or just climate?
    Do I know this skepticism? I don't even know what you mean by asking if I know this skepticism.

    I apply this skepticism to all science and pseudo-science which involves more variables than we can possibly account for (psychology fits that description), and take a very careful look at all science that is seriously overfunded by the government or other entities which have an agenda.

    Don't you?
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You only want the freedoms that will undermine the nation and lead to the destruction of liberty.

  32. #28
    It happens, man has very little effect.
    Libertarians - trying to improve the world through ideas and free markets rather than legislation and prisons.

  33. #29
    you should have made a poll
    We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false. -- William Casey, CIA Director

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  34. #30
    Which part of my post is causing you difficulties?

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