Jefferson quote on Christianity

[amy31416]

The saints who you called flawed middlemen who wrote the bible are amongst the most beautiful things to study in nature.

God is certainly glorified in nature and in His handiworks, such as in the cosmos and in the rivers and under the microscopes and beyond human perception, but nowhere is He more glorified and His beauty more clearly shown from nature than in His saints who are the children of God made in His image and likeness. The human act of selfless mercy and love for the love of another is the greatest 'thing' this universe can do and the greatest proof of His existence. Science has beauty in it, no doubt, and through the study of science, the person can come to find God in the order and beauty of it, but the culmination of science, the reason there is a material science, is so that His children might share in full and eternal loving communion with all and in all by the grace of God.

I think you get what I'm saying, but humanity is so incredibly flawed (myself included) that I won't take too many people's word for it. I'm a ground-up sort of person, not top-down.

[jmdrake]

Why are you willing to accept the Annunaki story and not the Jesus story? If the Annunaki came from another world, mined our gold, and fused us with the humanoid already evolving here, (which is the theory) right, the THEORY - how is that so different from a man being sent to earth by a Creator; a man who was given, by the Creator, extraordinary powers that were witnessed by thousands, written down, and changed humanity forever; a man who was brought back to life and ascended into the heavens? Why is one story more credible than the other?

Because in the previous theory, Ronin won't have to answer for his sins.

Uhhh, did you just conveniently forget about the sins of the world part?

Ronin, let me see if I understand you. Under your understanding TER's theory you don't have to answer for your sins either because Jesus' died for them?

[TER]

Uhhh, did you just conveniently forget about the sins of the world part?

Not at all. You will rise again because Christ has vanquished the power of death. He did this by uniting His divine nature with our human nature, living sinlessly and dying blamelessly, and in doing so has rendered the wages of sin, namely death, impotent against our nature. Christ took upon Himself the sins of the world, including your and mine and all future sins no matter how grievous, so that by His perfect obedience and purity, these sins could not have the power of eternal death upon us.

That being said and established, He then taught and promised that after all of us rise from the dead in the General Resurrection on the Final Day, we will then be judged for the sins we have committed against Him and our neighbors. This is the teachings of the fathers of the Church of which you might not have been aware. Christ has done the work of giving us a chance at eternal life, but we must willingly take this path and follow His commandments to the best of our abilities if we wish to enter through the gates into the Kingdom of Heaven.

[Ronin Truth]

Not at all. You will rise again because Christ has vanquished the power of death. He did this by uniting His divine nature with our human nature, living sinlessly and dying blamelessly, and in doing so has rendered the wages of sin, namely death, impotent against our nature. Christ took upon Himself the sins of the world, including your and mine and all future sins no matter how grievous, so that by His perfect obedience and purity, these sins could not have the power of eternal death upon us.

That being said and established, He then taught and promised that after all of us rise from the dead in the General Resurrection on the Final Day, we will then be judged for the sins we have committed against Him and our neighbors. This is the teachings of the fathers of the Church of which you might not have been aware. Christ has done the work of giving us a chance at eternal life, but we must willingly take this path and follow His commandments to the best of our abilities if we wish to enter through the gates into the Kingdom of Heaven.

So making a long story shorter my sins are covered because Jesus died to have them forgiven. I still think I much prefer my version of reality to yours.

[TER]

So making a long story shorter my sins are covered because Jesus died to have them forgiven. I still think I much prefer my version of reality to yours.

No, you misunderstand me. You will be responsible for your sins. They may not be enough to keep your soul separated from the body which turned to dust, but they might be enough to keep you out of the eternal Kingdom of God.

And you are of course free to prefer whatever version you like. I stand by the truth given by Jesus Christ over yours.

[Crashland]

Not at all. You will rise again because Christ has vanquished the power of death. He did this by uniting His divine nature with our human nature, living sinlessly and dying blamelessly, and in doing so has rendered the wages of sin, namely death, impotent against our nature. Christ took upon Himself the sins of the world, including your and mine and all future sins no matter how grievous, so that by His perfect obedience and purity, these sins could not have the power of eternal death upon us.

That being said and established, He then taught and promised that after all of us rise from the dead in the General Resurrection on the Final Day, we will then be judged for the sins we have committed against Him and our neighbors. This is the teachings of the fathers of the Church of which you might not have been aware. Christ has done the work of giving us a chance at eternal life, but we must willingly take this path and follow His commandments to the best of our abilities if we wish to enter through the gates into the Kingdom of Heaven.

So Jesus released all of us from the grip of death due to sin, but then when we don't die, we still get judged for our sins and we only get eternal life if we believed/did the right things?

Or is it that we get eternal life either way, but when we are judged if we didn't believe/do the right things then we get something even worse than death?

[TER]

So Jesus released all of us from the grip of death due to sin, but then when we don't die, we still get judged for our sins and we only get eternal life if we believed/did the right things?

Or is it that we get eternal life either way, but when we are judged if we didn't believe/do the right things then we get something even worse than death?

The second sentence. As long as God wills it, we will remain eternal, that is our souls are eternal as long as God has His grace upon us. Because of Christ's work on the cross and His resurrection, all will reunite with their bodies. We have been freed from the wages of sin (which is death) that was brought upon our nature by our forefather Adam. Now, death has no eternal power over us and we all will rise again. God has not left us in the pit because of the sin of Adam, but rather has raised our nature out of the pit when He united Himself with our nature and lifted it up and healed and restored it in perfect communion at the right hand of the Father.

After we arise in our new bodies, we will then be judged for the sins we have personally done in our life, for we will have no one other than ourselves to blame for our sins. Jesus Christ than will judge us according to our works and our hearts, and if it wasn't for His mercy, no one would be saved.

[Ronin Truth]

No, you misunderstand me. You will be responsible for your sins. They may not be enough to keep your soul separated from the body which turned to dust, but they might be enough to keep you out of the eternal Kingdom of God.

And you are of course free to prefer whatever version you like. I stand by the truth given by Jesus Christ over yours.

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." -- Bertrand Russell

[robert68]

If you believe that God created the universe, skip the flawed middlemen who wrote the bible and study nature.

A little circular thinking and you can get rid of those “flaws”.

[Deborah K]

EVIDENCE!

What evidence?? Where is the EVIDENCE that the Annunaki existed? Unearthly DNA extracted from bones? Space ships? Or just stuff written down? And some art.

[TER]

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." -- Bertrand Russell

Wow, that almost sounded like a quote demonstrating humility on the part of Bertrand Russell. I wonder if you can find any more!

[heavenlyboy34]

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." -- Bertrand Russell

"The problem with quotes without citation on the internet is that one never knows if they're accurate or support the quoter's point in context". ~Mr Wizard

[Crashland]

The second sentence. As long as God wills it, we will remain eternal, that is our souls are eternal as long as God has His grace upon us. Because of Christ's work on the cross and His resurrection, all will reunite with their bodies. We have been freed from the wages of sin (which is death) that was brought upon our nature by our forefather Adam. Now, death has no eternal power over us and we all will rise again. God has not left us in the pit because of the sin of Adam, but rather has raised our nature out of the pit when He united Himself with our nature and lifted it up and healed and restored it in perfect communion at the right hand of the Father.

After we arise in our new bodies, we will then be judged for the sins we have personally done in our life, for we will have no one other than ourselves to blame for our sins. Jesus Christ than will judge us according to our works and our hearts, and if it wasn't for His mercy, no one would be saved.

It would have been better for non-believers then if God had simply allowed them to die in the first place instead of saving them from death just so that they will live forever in eternal torment.

[Deborah K]

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." -- Bertrand Russell

ugh...Bertand Russell, the Fabian Socialist. He also quoted this:

"In future such failures are not likely to occur where there is dictatorship. Diet, injections, and injunctions will combine, from a very early age, to produce the sort of character and the sort of beliefs that the authorities consider desirable, and any serious criticism of the powers that be will become psychologically impossible. Even if all are miserable, all will believe themselves happy, because the government will tell them that they are so.”

[Crashland]

ugh...Bertand Russell, the Fabian Socialist. He also quoted this:

He sure did! It would be quite fallacious to assume that Bertrand Russell is always wrong or always right. I'm sure that's not what you were hinting at though

[Deborah K]

He sure did! It would be quite fallacious to assume that Bertrand Russell is always wrong or always right.

Yeah, like Hitler. Not always wrong or always right.

[TER]

It would have been better for non-believers then if God had simply allowed them to die in the first place instead of saving them from death just so that they will live forever in eternal torment.

No, because they would have never had the opportunity to truly live.

Adam and Even were banished from the Garden after they were corrupted in sin and were under the sentence and power of death. This was on account of their sin (for sin is separation from God, and since God is Life, then sin is separation from life). But even in this, according to the fathers, God is demonstrating His love and mercy upon mankind. For having sinned, He did not allow them to then suffer the fate of eternal separation from Him due to sin, but allowed death so that there might be an end to the separation. For by His providence and wisdom and in the appointed time, God would come down Himself and remove the stain upon our nature which caused us separation from Him, tear the veil separating God from us, deify our soul and bodies and grant us the ability to rise like Him into the newness of eternal and whole and loving communion with God. This is the return to paradise, the re-entrance into Eden given to us by God according to our love in His image and likeness.

But for such a great reward, there also comes a price, and that price is trust, faith, obedience, and loving devotion to Him Who has made all of this possible. And those who reject Him then reject too His gifts, and then they will be cast into the fire to be eternally consumed having rejected life itself which comes from God.

[Ronin Truth]

What evidence?? Where is the EVIDENCE that the Annunaki existed? Unearthly DNA extracted from bones? Space ships? Or just stuff written down? And some art.

How much would you like?

[Ronin Truth]

ugh...Bertand Russell, the Fabian Socialist. He also quoted this:

True, also much much more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertrand_Russell

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/russell/

[Ronin Truth]

"The problem with quotes without citation on the internet is that one never knows if they're accurate or support the quoter's point in context". ~Mr Wizard

http://atheisme.free.fr/Quotes/Russell.htm

[Ronin Truth]

Ronin, let me see if I understand you. Under your understanding TER's theory you don't have to answer for your sins either because Jesus' died for them?

Yep, that's the way I was raised. Yeah, I can play that hand. Not being a Christian makes that a whole lot easier.

[Crashland]

No, because they would have never had the opportunity to truly live.

Adam and Even were banished from the Garden after they were corrupted in sin and were under the sentence and power of death. This was on account of their sin (for sin is separation from God, and since God is Life, then sin is separation from life). But even in this, according to the fathers, God is demonstrating His love and mercy upon mankind. For having sinned, He did not allow them to then suffer the fate of eternal separation from Him due to sin, but allowed death so that there might be an end to the separation. For by His providence and wisdom and in the appointed time, God would come down Himself and remove the stain upon our nature which caused us separation from Him, tear the veil separating God from us, deify our soul and bodies and grant us the ability to rise like Him into the newness of eternal and whole and loving communion with God. This is the return to paradise, the re-entrance into Eden given to us by God according to our love in His image and likeness.

Seems reasonable enough.

But for such a great reward, there also comes a price, and that price is trust, faith, obedience, and loving devotion to Him Who has made all of this possible. And those who reject Him then reject too His gifts, and then they will be cast into the fire to be eternally consumed having rejected life itself which comes from God.

Suppose I have an email account and I receive 100 solicitations, and they tend to have the same types of messages. One of them reads something like "If you send your entire life's savings via bank wire to this account, I promise I will reward you ten times over. Check out my website you can read all about it. Btw, you don't even want to know what will happen to you if you don't." I check out the email, maybe visit the website, do some due diligence and it looks like a scam just like the other 99 solicitations. *Delete*. I also warn people about it so that they don't get duped or driven by fear because of the threat.

I can't speak for all non-believers, but for myself that's the kind of "rejection" we are talking about here. If I end up being wrong and something terrible happens to me, well that would suck but in retrospect I can't say that I should have done anything differently. If God is the kind of God who considers that kind of a "rejection" worthy of such punishment I don't think I would have wanted to spend eternity with him anyway.

[TER]

Seems reasonable enough.



Suppose I have an email account and I receive 100 solicitations, and they tend to have the same types of messages. One of them reads something like "If you send your entire life's savings via bank wire to this account, I promise I will reward you ten times over. Check out my website you can read all about it. Btw, you don't even want to know what will happen to you if you don't." I check out the email, maybe visit the website, do some due diligence and it looks like a scam just like the other 99 solicitations. *Delete*. I also warn people about it so that they don't get duped or driven by fear because of the threat.

I can't speak for all non-believers, but for myself that's the kind of "rejection" we are talking about here. If I end up being wrong and something terrible happens to me, well that would suck but in retrospect I can't say that I should have done anything differently. If God is the kind of God who considers that kind of a "rejection" worthy of such punishment I don't think I would have wanted to spend eternity with him anyway.

It has to do with our very ontology, our very being and source of being. Everything comes to us from God. Apart from God, we have no existence. God has written in the hearts of all men the law and has endowed them with the voice of God which is in their conscious. Our moral foundations which are deep seated in our psyche have been placed there by God in our created natures made in His image. Thus, it is not as if God is sending us an email from an unknown source amidst the cacophony of other email solicitations as much as it is Him knocking at the door of our hearts so that we can truly become human beings. We become truly human when we are confirmed in the image of Christ. God is no more far and unreachable from us, such as unknown email sender. He knows us, can truly empathize with us having put on our nature, and He speaks in our conscious and in our hearts so that we might do the good He wills of us so as to confirm greater into His image and likeness, and grow into deeper and fuller communion with Him. And in this communion, we find the gifts of divinity including eternal life. In this we find our true personhood, our true humanity.

When we reject these knockings on the doors of our hearts (and they can happen every day, and several times a day as we simply glance over them or think them to be coincidental), then our punishment is in actuality self-inflicted, namely on account of pride and vainglory. We have denied the very source of life and chosen something else (even our own three pound brain) over Him, then we are less human and eventually become spiritually dead already.

Every person who has learned about about the story, life, and teachings of Jesus Christ have had for at least one single moment the thought that perhaps Jesus Christ truly is Who He claimed to be. Our very nature desires it to be true in its very material fiber. For some people, this one single thought may have been enough to convert them to the truth and toward the path He paved. For some, it takes repeated wrestling and research until this becomes clear and the door of the heart is fully opened and He is allowed in. For others, these thoughts have been so repeatedly drowned out by doubt and pride that they cannot even barely hear it any more, even though by nature, by their conscious, and by their deep seated psyche it is there and ready to be activated again and answered if the heart is softened and humbled.

We will not be able to blame God for our rejection of Him, nor for our rejection of life being that God is our life. It is instead often times our own habitual self-will and doubt and the passions we had allowed to become masters over us which cloud our conscious, dull our ears and numb our minds from humbling ourselves and accepting Christ in faith into our hearts and allowing Him to grant us understanding, reassurance and eternal life.

[Crashland]

It has to do with our very ontology, our very being and source of being. Everything comes from us from God. Apart from God, we have no existence. God has written in the hearts of all men the law and has endowed them with the voice of God which is in their conscious. Our moral foundations which are deep seated in our psyche have been placed there by God in our created natures made in His image. Thus, it is not as if God is sending us an email from an unknown source amidst the cacophony of other email solicitations as much as it is Him knocking at the door of our hearts, awaiting us to hear Him speak in our conscious so that we might do the good He wills of us so as to confirm greater into His image and likeness and grow into deeper and fuller communion with Him. And in this communion, we find the gifts of divinity including eternal life. When we reject these knockings on the doors of our hearts (and they can happen every day, and several times a day though he simply glance over them or think them to be coincidental), then our punishment is in actuality self-inflicted, namely on account of pride and vainglory. We have denied the very source of life and chosen something else (even our own three pound brain) over Him.

The cacophony of other emails are the other religions with different claims. The rest of what you are saying is certainly consistent within the Christian supposition but does not help outside of that when one has not established the authenticity of the email in the first place.

Every person who has learned about about the story, life, and teachings of Jesus Christ have had for at least one single moment the thought that perhaps Jesus Christ truly is He Who claimed to be. Our very nature desires it to be true in its very material fiber.

I agree that it is natural. Desiring that which we cannot have is indeed something that is in our nature. I think that people usually desire for these things to be true because it provides an easier way to cope with things like death, loneliness, feelings of guilt/regret, or injustice.

For some people, this one single thought may have been enough to convert them to the truth and toward the path He paved. For some, it takes repeated wrestling and research until this becomes clear and the door of the heart is fully opened and He is allowed in. For some, these thought have been so repeatedly numbed out by doubt and pride that they cannot even barely hear it ever more, even though by nature, by their conscious, and by their deep seated psyche it is there and willingly to be activated again if the heart is softened and humbled.

We will not be able to blame God for our rejection of Him and in like manner, life itself which He is the Source of. It would have been our own habitual self-will and the passions we had allowed to become masters over us which clouded our conscious, dulled our ears and numbed our minds from humbling ourselves and accepting Christ in faith, opening our hearts and allowing Him to grant us understanding and eternal life.

Yes, it is always good to remain open-minded. However if one does their due diligence to the very best of their ability and still currently believes the email from John Smith is a scam, even if the email was actually the truth, it is not a rejection of John Smith, it is a lack of belief that there is actually a person named John Smith who will do what the email says he will. A person cannot control that which they are or aren't convinced of. Is it the recipient's fault for rejecting a true claim when it looks to them exactly like a hundred other false ones? And if it is their fault, is it really a moral fault worthy of judgment, or is it just that they weren't intelligent enough to see it?

[TER]

Thank you for the discussion, but I need to get some rest. We should continue this tomorrow. Goodnight.

[Crashland]

Thank you for the discussion, but I need to get some rest. We should continue this tomorrow. Goodnight.

Good night, and thank you too, always a good discussion

[Deborah K]

How much would you like?

How about whatever it was that convinced you to believe the Annunaki story over the Jesus story?

[Ronin Truth]

How about whatever it was that convinced you to believe the Annunaki story over the Jesus story?

I guess that I'm pretty close to TJ's view on the Jesus story. I really like both Jesus and TJ.

My introduction to the Anunnaki came from reading about 5 of Zecharia Sitchin's books, several additional books by other authors, watching some related Utube videos, a few associated web articles and a couple of related episodes of "Ancient Aliens" on TV, all over several (7) years.

I'd probably suggest that you just start here, it's much shorter and easier. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zecharia_Sitchin

Enjoy!

[Deborah K]

I guess that I'm pretty close to TJ's view on the Jesus story. I really like both Jesus and TJ.

My introduction to the Anunnaki came from reading about 5 of Zecharia Sitchin's books, several additional books by other authors, watching some related Utube videos, a few associated web articles and a couple of related episodes of "Ancient Aliens" on TV, all over several (7) years.

I'd probably suggest that you just start here, it's much shorter and easier. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zecharia_Sitchin

Enjoy!

I've done some research on it myself. Thanks for the added info. I wouldn't exactly call that evidence though...

On another note: Are you aware that Bernard Russell was an advocate for global governance and eugenics?

[Ronin Truth]

I've done some research on it myself. Thanks for the added info. I wouldn't exactly call that evidence though...

Do you have an alternative guess/opinion on how Sumer became responsible for and started all of those human civilization firsts right out of the stone age?
When the Sumerians were asked about how learned to do all of that stuff, they always replied that the Gods (Anunnaki) taught them.

I call that evidence.

On another note: Are you aware that Bernard Russell was an advocate for global governance and eugenics?

Yes, I am aware. Russell has been dead and buried for over 40 years. I seriously doubt that he will bite you or endanger your health in any way. To the degree that you know me, you probably know that I'm absolutely NO booster of the Fabian Socialists. Have you seen any global governance or eugenics references mentioned in the posted Russell quotes? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertrand_Russell