The Holy Spirit Rules the Church

[TER]

The Holy Spirit Rules the Church

by St. Leo the Great

---

The bishop of Rome during difficult times, he was an eminent scholar of Scripture and rhetoric. During an invasion by Attila the Hun, St. Leo met him outside the gates of Rome. After some short words, to everyone’s surprise, Attila turned and left. Three years later, during an invasion by Genseric the Vandal, St. Leo’s intercession again saved the Eternal City from destruction. Now that’s great preaching.

I. The Giving of the Law by Moses Prepared the Way for the Outpouring of the Holy Spirit

The hearts of all Catholics, beloved, realize that to-day’s solemnity is to be honored as one of the chief feasts, nor is there any doubt that great respect is due to this day, which the Holy Spirit has hallowed by the miracle of His most excellent gift. For from the day on which the Lord ascended up above all heavenly heights to sit down at God the Father’s right hand, this is the tenth which has shone, and the fiftieth from His Resurrection, being the very day on which it began, and containing in itself great revelations of mysteries both new and old, by which it is most manifestly revealed that Grace was fore-announced through the Law and the Law fulfilled through Grace.

For as of old, when the Hebrew nation were released from the Egyptians, on the fiftieth day after the sacrificing of the lamb the Law was given on Mount Sinai, so after the suffering of Christ, wherein the true Lamb of God was slain on the fiftieth day from His Resurrection, the Holy Spirit came down upon the Apostles and the multitude of believers, so that the earnest Christian may easily perceive that the beginnings of the Old Testament were preparatory to the beginnings of the Gospel, and that the second covenant was rounded by the same Spirit that had instituted the first.

II. How Marvelous Was the Gift of “Divers Tongues”

For as the Apostles’ story testifies:

“while the days of Pentecost were fulfilled and all the disciples were together in the same place, there occurred suddenly from heaven a sound as of a violent wind coming, and filled the whole house where they were sitting. And there appeared to them divided tongues as of fire and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Holy Spirit gave them utterance.”

Oh! how swift are the words of wisdom. and where God is the Master, how quickly is what is taught, learnt. No interpretation is required for understanding, no practice for using, no time for studying, but the Spirit of Truth blowing where He wills, the languages peculiar to each nation become common property in the mouth of the Church. And therefore from that day the trumpet of the Gospel-preaching has sounded loud: from that day the showers of gracious gifts, the rivers of blessings, have watered every desert and all the dry land, since to renew the face of the earth the Spirit of God

“moved over the waters,”

and to drive away the old darkness flashes of new light shone forth, when by the blaze of those busy tongues was kindled the Lord’s bright Word and fervent eloquence, in which to arouse the understanding, and to consume sin there lay both a capacity of enlightenment and a power of burning.

III. The Three Persons in the Trinity are Perfectly Equal in All Things

But although, dearly-beloved, the actual form of the thing done was exceeding wonderful, and undoubtedly in that exultant chorus of all human languages the Majesty of the Holy Spirit was present, yet no one must think that His Divine substance appeared in what was seen with bodily eyes. For His Nature, which is invisible and shared in common with the Father and the Son, showed the character of His gift and work by the outward sign that pleased Him, but kept His essential property within His own Godhead: because human sight can no more perceive the Holy Spirit than it can the Father or the Son. For in the Divine Trinity nothing is unlike or unequal, and all that can be thought concerning Its substance admits of no diversity either in power or glory or eternity. And while in the property of each Person the Father is one, the Son is another, and the Holy Spirit is another, yet the Godhead is not distinct and different; for whilst the Son is the Only begotten of the Father, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father and the Son, not in the way that every creature is the creature of the Father and the Son, but as living and having power with Both, and eternally subsisting of That Which is the Father and the Son. And hence when the Lord before the day of His Passion promised the coming of the Holy Spirit to His disciples, He said,

“I have yet many things to say to you, but ye cannot bear them now. But when He, the Spirit of Truth shall have come, He shall guide you into all the Truth. For He shall not speak from Himself, but whatsoever He shall have heard, He shall speak and shall announce things to come unto you. All things that the Father hath are Mine: therefore said I that He shall take of Mine, and shall announce it to you.”

Accordingly, there are not some things that are the Father’s, and other the Son’s, and other the Holy Spirit’s: but all things whatsoever the Father has, the Son also has, and the Holy Spirit also has: nor was there ever a time when this communion did not exist, because with Them to have all things is to always exist. In them let no times, no grades, no differences be imagined, and, if no one can explain that which is true concerning God, let no one dare to assert what is not true.

For it is more excusable not to make a full statement concerning His ineffable Nature than to frame an actually wrong definition. And so whatever loyal hearts can conceive of the Father’s eternal and unchangeable Glory, let them at the same time understand it of the Son and of the Holy Spirit without any separation or difference. For we confess this blessed Trinity to be One God for this reason, because in these three Persons there is no diversity either of substance, or of power, or of will, or of operation.

IV. The Macedonian Heresy is as Blasphemous as the Arian

As therefore we abhor the Arians, who maintain a difference between the Father and the Son, so also we abhor the Macedonians, who, although they ascribe equality to the Father and the Son, yet think the Holy Spirit to be of a lower nature, not considering that they thus fall into that blasphemy, which is not to be forgiven either in the present age or in the judgment to come, as the Lord says:

“whosoever shall have spoken a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him, but he that shall have spoken against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him either in this age or in the age to come.”

And so to persist in this impiety is unpardonable, because it cuts him off from Him, by Whom he could confess: nor will he ever attain to healing pardon, who has no Advocate to plead for him. For from Him comes the invocation of the Father, from Him come the tears of penitents, from Him come the groans of suppliants, and

“no one can call Jesus the Lord save in the Holy Spirit,”

Whose Omnipotence as equal and Whose Godhead as one, with the Father and the Son, the Apostle most clearly proclaims, saying,

“there are divisions of graces but the same Spirit; and the divisions of ministrations but the same Lord; and there are divisions of operations but the same God, Who works all things in all.”

V. The Spirit’s Work is Still Continued in The Church

By these and other numberless proofs, dearly-beloved, with which the authority of the Divine utterances is ablaze, let us with one mind be incited to pay reverence to Whitsuntide (Pentecost), exulting in honor of the Holy Spirit, through Whom the whole catholic Church is sanctified, and every rational soul quickened; Who is the Inspirer of the Faith, the Teacher of Knowledge, the Fount of Love, the Seal of Chastity, and the Cause of all Power. Let the minds of the faithful rejoice, that throughout the world One God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, is praised by the confession of all tongues, and that that sign of His Presence, which appeared in the likeness of fire, is still perpetuated in His work and gift.

For the Spirit of Truth Himself makes the house of His glory shine with the brightness of His light, and will have nothing dark nor lukewarm in His temple. And it is through His aid and teaching also that the purification of fasts and alms has been established among us. For this venerable day is followed by a most wholesome practice, which all the saints have ever found most profitable to them, and to the diligent observance of which we exhort you with a shepherd’s care, to the end that if any blemish has been contracted in the days just passed through heedless negligence, it may be atoned for by the discipline of fasting and corrected by pious devotion.

On Wednesday and Friday, therefore, let us fast, and on Saturday for this very purpose keep vigil with accustomed devotion, through Jesus Christ our Lord, Who with the Father and the Holy Spirit lives and reigns for ever and ever. Amen.

[kjw47]

Out of the 33,000 choices( 1Cor 1:10) how does one find the 1 who actually has the HS? All claim to be lead by it--

[TER]

Out of the 33,000 choices( 1Cor 1:10) how does one find the 1 who actually has the HS? All claim to be lead by it--

This is a brief summary that may be of help in your investigation as to which is the one ascribed to in the Holy Scriptures. The attributes by which the ancient Church proclaimed and still proclaims.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...-and-Apostolic

[kjw47]

This is a brief summary that may be of help in your investigation as to which is the one ascribed to in the Holy Scriptures. The attributes by which the ancient Church proclaimed and still proclaims.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...-and-Apostolic

Would it not be a wiser path to learn Jesus' truths and apply them daily? Isnt this how one measures all truth by?

[TER]

Would it not be a wiser path to learn Jesus' truths and apply them daily? Isnt this how one measures all truth by?

To learn Jesus' truths and apply them daily is what it means to become a member of His Body, the Church. Did you read the link I posted?

[kjw47]

To learn Jesus' truths and apply them daily is what it means to become a member of His Body, the Church. Did you read the link I posted?

Sorry, i never open links. I attended many churches in my years-talked with JW,s, Mormons Jewish, Muslim,

The only teachers I ever found that teach Jesus' truth' are the JW teachers. And teach each individual to apply them daily.

[TER]

Sorry, i never open links.

But then how, my friend, can you be corrected if you are wrong? The link I provided says much better what I believe, so if you cared at all what I believe, you would read it and we can discuss it as brothers debating the wonders of God. But if you don't care what I believe, which I can accept, why do you run from information? You say you talked with Mormons, and Jews, and Muslims, but you know that that alone does not mean you have all the knowledge in the world or now have the authority to proclaim what should be held worthy to be read and which should be thrown out! You know better then that! For example, how much do you know about the Orthodox Christian Church? Did you know that if you go back far enough, you spiritual Christian ancestors where practicing Orthodox Christians? The article I link is not offered to hurt but to educate you, so there is nothing to fear. A true believer, as you know, should have no such fear and be willing to be challenged so that like a knife being sharpened, they can more easily cut through those things which are soul destroying to those things which lead to salvation. However, this is the knife we use against our own will and not to destroy our neighbor. Indeed, we are to care for them and pray for them, and caring about the other person means listening to them and trying to understand them. Curt replies like 'I never open links' do not invoke any kind of confidence of expectation towards unity in love and understanding. I am not singling you out, I say this generically. I do worse myself! I am just trying to have you understand where I am coming from and how you might be perceived.

The only teachers I ever found that teach Jesus' truth' are the JW teachers. And teach each individual to apply them daily.

I am quite sure there are many good JW teachers, who live lives full of virtue. But this exists everywhere and in every religion. Granted, I would contend that the Orthodox Church has the greatest saints, including numerically, and I mean that as objectively as possible, having read their hagiography and the hagiography of the saints of the other major religions. (of course, I make no claim to have all the knowledge, so I may be wrong, but am willing to be disproven and will look at the evidence.) My understanding is that no body of believers has the wonder of saints of the Christian Church who were so full of the Holy Spirit that they lived in the world but were not of the world, having being transfigured by the very Divine Light of God while still in the flesh. The Holy Spirit has and continues to work wonders within the Church and through the saints, even after they have left this world. God is glorified in His saints Whom He loves and have made to be for us examples to learn from and emulate.

Likewise, I would never say or imply that JW are all going to hell. Not at all, I dont believe that for a moment. There are JW who live more Christ-like lives then I, and I do not put myself above them at all. I know that God alone is Judge and will judge each person according to their heart as only God knows them. I have enough sins of my own I have to work on.

Nevertheless, the fullness of the truth did not start in the mid-nineteenth century, but has been experienced and lived within the Church which goes back to the very Apostles. We should not turn our face from those believers who came before us or blind ourselves from the truths revealed to them. Rather, we should look to know greater those who have maintained the faith through all adversity and tribulations and have made Christ true when He said that He would never leave them and that the gates of hell would not prevail on them. We should learn from them who proclaimed the truth of the Church and all the believers they were made shepherds of by the will of God. We should explore the one communion and faith which can trace back through every century to the days of Christ, - one apostolic faith proclaimed and defended and united mystically in sacramental communion with all the baptized believers of Christ in this world and concomitantly in the Kingdom of Heaven. As one body, in communion. This is the Church, one divine-human body of this world and the Kingdom.

This Church was initiated by Christ alone and is an icon of His Body. It was not begun by any other man, whether in the first few centuries like Arias or these later times, but by the unified voice of the body which has through the centuries and the severest persecutions known to man faithfully handed down to us even until today the teachings of the saints before them. Unless one humbles themselves, they will not enter the Kingdom, no matter which faith they practice.

That means that an Orthodox Christian does not have a free pass. Yet neither does that mean that JW faith is the faith of the Apostles of Christ. Therefore, in humility, we should know how little we actually know, live virtuous Christ-like lives in love and mercy and sacrifice for the other, and conform ourselves in faith and obedience to the teachings of Christ which He revealed to His Apostles and who by the grace of God in the Holy Spirit pass it down to us today.

[heavenlyboy34]

But then how, my friend, can you be corrected if you are wrong? The link I provided says much better what I believe, so if you cared at all what I believe, you would read it and we can discuss it as brothers debating the wonders of God. But if you don't care what I believe, which I can accept, why do you run from information? You say you talked with Mormons, and Jews, and Muslims, but you know that that alone does not mean you have all the knowledge in the world or now have the authority to proclaim what should be held worthy to be read and which should be thrown out! You know better then that! For example, how much do you know about the Orthodox Christian Church? Did you know that if you go back far enough, you spiritual Christian ancestors where practicing Orthodox Christians? The article I link is not offered to hurt but to educate you, so there is nothing to fear. A true believer, as you know, should have no such fear and be willing to be challenged so that like a knife being sharpened, they can more easily cut through those things which are soul destroying and those things which lead to salvation. Caring about the other person means listening to them and trying to understand them. Curt replies like 'I never open links' do not invoke any kind of confidence of expectation towards unity in love and understanding. I am not singling out you. I do worse! I am just trying to have you understand where I am coming from.



I am quite sure there are many good JW teachers, who live lives full of virtue. But this exists everywhere and in every religion. Granted, I would contend that the Orthodox Church has the greatest saints, including numerically, and I mean that as objectively as possible, having read their hagiography and the hagiography of the saints of the other major religions. (of course, I make no claim to have all the knowledge, so I may be wrong, but am willing to be disproven and will look at the evidence.) My understanding is that no body of believers has the wonder of saints of the Christian Church who were so full of the Holy Spirit that they lived in the world but were not of the world, having being transfigured by the very Divine Light of God while still in the flesh. The Holy Spirit has and continues to work wonders within the Church and through the saints, even after they have left this world. God is glorified in His saints Whom He loves and have made to be for us examples to learn from and emulate.

Likewise, I would never say or imply that JW are all going to hell. Not at all, I dont believe that for a moment. There are JW who live more Christ-like lives then I, and I do not put myself above them at all. I know that God alone is Judge and will judge each person according to their heart as only God knows them. I have enough sins of my own I have to work on.

Nevertheless, the fullness of the truth did not start in the mid-nineteenth century, but has been experienced and lived within the Church which goes back to the very Apostles. We should not turn our face from those believers who came before us or blind ourselves from the truths revealed to them. Rather, we should look to know greater those who have maintained the faith through all adversity and tribulations and have made Christ true when He said that He would never leave them and that the gates of hell would not prevail on them. We should explore the one which can trace back through every century to the days of Christ one apostolic faith proclaimed and defended and united mystically in sacramental communion with all the baptized believers of Christ in this world and in the Kingdom of Heaven. As one body, in communion. This is the Church. It is not begun by any man, whether in the first few centuries like Arias or the mid-nineteenth, but by the unified voice of the body which has through the centuries and the severest persecutions known to man faithfully handed down to us today the teachings of the saints before them. Does that mean being an Orthodox Christian gets in free ahead of a virtuous and Christ-like JW? Of course not! But neither does that mean that JW faith is the faith of the Apostles of Christ. We should live virtuous Christ-like lives and conform ourselves in faith and obedience to the teachings of Christ spread through his Apostles and those they chose and ordained in the Holy Spirit.

+rep Excellent testimony, bother. ~hugs~

[jmdrake]

Originally God spoke directly to everyone. In fact He spoke the 10 commandments in Exodus 20. The people did not want to hear directly from God. Likely this is because inwardly they wanted to keep sinning.

Exodus 20:18-21
18 When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear. They stayed at a distance 19 and said to Moses, “Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die.”

20 Moses said to the people, “Do not be afraid. God has come to test you, so that the fear of God will be with you to keep you from sinning.”

21 The people remained at a distance, while Moses approached the thick darkness where God was.

After the people rejected the direct communication with God, God instituted the old covenant. But the people continually broke it. So He promised a New Covenant.

Jeremiah 31:31-34
31 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to[d] them,[e]”
declares the Lord.
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”


Hebrews 10:11 - 18
11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:

16 “This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”

17 Then he adds:

“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”

18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.

Hebrews 8:7 - 13
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said[b]:

“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”[c]

13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

1 John 2:27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him.

Jesus alluded to this in His interaction with the woman of Samaria.

John 4:21-24
21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

People worry about whether their sect is correct. God is concerned with whether your heart is correct.

[kjw47]

But then how, my friend, can you be corrected if you are wrong? The link I provided says much better what I believe, so if you cared at all what I believe, you would read it and we can discuss it as brothers debating the wonders of God. But if you don't care what I believe, which I can accept, why do you run from information? You say you talked with Mormons, and Jews, and Muslims, but you know that that alone does not mean you have all the knowledge in the world or now have the authority to proclaim what should be held worthy to be read and which should be thrown out! You know better then that! For example, how much do you know about the Orthodox Christian Church? Did you know that if you go back far enough, you spiritual Christian ancestors where practicing Orthodox Christians? The article I link is not offered to hurt but to educate you, so there is nothing to fear. A true believer, as you know, should have no such fear and be willing to be challenged so that like a knife being sharpened, they can more easily cut through those things which are soul destroying to those things which lead to salvation. However, this is the knife we use against our own will and not to destroy our neighbor. Indeed, we are to care for them and pray for them, and caring about the other person means listening to them and trying to understand them. Curt replies like 'I never open links' do not invoke any kind of confidence of expectation towards unity in love and understanding. I am not singling you out, I say this generically. I do worse myself! I am just trying to have you understand where I am coming from and how you might be perceived.



I am quite sure there are many good JW teachers, who live lives full of virtue. But this exists everywhere and in every religion. Granted, I would contend that the Orthodox Church has the greatest saints, including numerically, and I mean that as objectively as possible, having read their hagiography and the hagiography of the saints of the other major religions. (of course, I make no claim to have all the knowledge, so I may be wrong, but am willing to be disproven and will look at the evidence.) My understanding is that no body of believers has the wonder of saints of the Christian Church who were so full of the Holy Spirit that they lived in the world but were not of the world, having being transfigured by the very Divine Light of God while still in the flesh. The Holy Spirit has and continues to work wonders within the Church and through the saints, even after they have left this world. God is glorified in His saints Whom He loves and have made to be for us examples to learn from and emulate.

Likewise, I would never say or imply that JW are all going to hell. Not at all, I dont believe that for a moment. There are JW who live more Christ-like lives then I, and I do not put myself above them at all. I know that God alone is Judge and will judge each person according to their heart as only God knows them. I have enough sins of my own I have to work on.

Nevertheless, the fullness of the truth did not start in the mid-nineteenth century, but has been experienced and lived within the Church which goes back to the very Apostles. We should not turn our face from those believers who came before us or blind ourselves from the truths revealed to them. Rather, we should look to know greater those who have maintained the faith through all adversity and tribulations and have made Christ true when He said that He would never leave them and that the gates of hell would not prevail on them. We should learn from them who proclaimed the truth of the Church and all the believers they were made shepherds of by the will of God. We should explore the one communion and faith which can trace back through every century to the days of Christ, - one apostolic faith proclaimed and defended and united mystically in sacramental communion with all the baptized believers of Christ in this world and concomitantly in the Kingdom of Heaven. As one body, in communion. This is the Church, one divine-human body of this world and the Kingdom.

This Church was initiated by Christ alone and is an icon of His Body. It was not begun by any other man, whether in the first few centuries like Arias or these later times, but by the unified voice of the body which has through the centuries and the severest persecutions known to man faithfully handed down to us even until today the teachings of the saints before them. Unless one humbles themselves, they will not enter the Kingdom, no matter which faith they practice.

That means that an Orthodox Christian does not have a free pass. Yet neither does that mean that JW faith is the faith of the Apostles of Christ. Therefore, in humility, we should know how little we actually know, live virtuous Christ-like lives in love and mercy and sacrifice for the other, and conform ourselves in faith and obedience to the teachings of Christ which He revealed to His Apostles and who by the grace of God in the Holy Spirit pass it down to us today.

I place Jesus' teachings against what I am taught. its the only way.

[Theocrat]

To learn Jesus' truths and apply them daily is what it means to become a member of His Body, the Church. Did you read the link I posted?

I generally agree with that, TER. It just doesn't have to be an Orthodox congregation that one must join to be part of the Body of Christ.

[TER]

I generally agree with that, TER. It just doesn't have to be an Orthodox congregation that one must join to be part of the Body of Christ.

In this life, it is impossible to know with certainty who is or will be in the Body of Christ. God alone is Judge. I have never said otherwise. The Orthodox way however is the surest and fullest way into the Kingdom. It is the One Church and one communion of faith which those who will eventually enter the Kingdom will be grafted upon by the love and mercy of God. If it wasn't, I would keep searching for that Church in the world. If you know another, I am willing to hear it and compare. But the historical facts and records, the Patristic writings and witness, the sacred hymnology and apostolic worship, and above all the grace filled sacraments have thoroughly convinced me that the Orthodox Church is indeed the pearl of great price which Christ has established in this world for the healing and salvation of mankind. This is my witness which I do not share with just a few, or only with some in these latter days whose teachings indeed are at odds with their Christian forefathers who came before them, but rather with the communion of saints which goes back the full inclusive 2000 years, all the way back to the Apostles and to Christ. My boast is in them and of the Church which God has established and nothing on account of what I have done.

This may seem difficult, that is, to submit one's mind to the mind of the Church and try and conform one's life and beliefs to the teachings and faith which the Church has struggled and sacrificed to pass down undefined and unchanged for the benefit of man. That is, to take the collective experience of 2000 years of saints to be more reliable and more trustworthy then my own limited and fallible mind. Yet, it is not difficulty at all, and the wonder of it all is that when one does humble themselves in such a way, it is actually liberating and illuminating and like a spring gushing forth eternal waters, filling and completing. Such humility in faith and obedience to the Body of Christ as the icon of Christ in the world serves to focus one's concentration and acts on other pressing things in life, such as our spiritual warfare against our evil wills and passions and allows our souls to grow in Christ and conform into His own likeness just as the God-bearing saints have down by the Holy Spirit. This is because the majority of the theological topics with regards to the fundamental truths of the Christian faith and ethos which helps to orient us to the correct path and true knowledge of God and communion with Him have already been proclaimed and revealed by the living experience of the communion of saints, in the consensus and witness of the Church. In this way St. Paul teaches that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth.

The Branch theory of Chrisianity is a modern heresy completely at odds with the witness of the saints and found nowhere in the patristic teachings which have been handed down. It completely distorts the Apostolic and Patristic understanding of what the Church, as the Body of Christ, means and is, and how we are healed, sanctified, and saved within it.

[jmdrake]

Hello TER. I have not heard of the "branch theory" of Christianity, or at least not as you are describing it. (Jesus did say I am the vine and you are the branches so that may be what you are talking about.) There is a "branch reality" of Christianity. We've talked a little about this before. I know you consider your church in communion with the Roman Catholic church but there are significant differences. During the dark ages, Christians who lived in western Europe who simply couldn't deal with the problems they saw in the Roman church didn't really have a choice to join what you consider to be the "right" church. So the reality was for them to start their own underground church.

Anyway, I'm more interested in New Covenant theory. And my understanding of that, based largely on the verses I already posted but others as well, is that the purpose of the church is not to be the conduit through which its members hear the Holy Spirit, but rather to be the conduit through which its members receive the Holy Spirit. That's a subtle but important difference. Under the old covenant the children of Israel heard the voice of God through Moses and through the Aaronic priesthood. But they did not receive the Holy Spirit. God's law was not written on their hearts. When the work of the Spirit is complete in the life of the member, the church becomes redundant as far as a "teacher" role. Sure, such a member should still go to church, but the purpose is different. Church becomes a place where people come to encourage each other in doing the work of the Lord.

Hebrews 10:24,25

24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25 not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

I think I can best explain what I'm saying by stepping out of the religion realm and talking about martial arts which an be quasi religious. I've studied several arts including Brazilian Jujitsu, karate, and Jeet Kune Do (Bruce Lee's martial art). Bruce was all about using martial arts to find your own way. The art was merely a tool or a boat to get you on your journey. The art was not supposed to be the destination. I had one teacher who looked at the art as the destination even if he would never say that. He did all the lineage research, tried to find out exactly how Bruce did this or that. He was highly critical of anyone who did things different from what he considered "orthodox". I still respect him, though I am no longer under him because of personal issues he had that bled into me. Now, many years later, I have what I would call a "trainer". He doesn't even call what he does Jeet Kune Do. But I've finally learned out to apply what I learned years ago. It's interesting that some of what I've "learned" is what I discovered on my own training by myself with no one to test it with. Some of my self discovery works. Some of it doesn't work. Some of it works with the proper adjustments. My trainer often thanks me for sharing my knowledge even though I've come to the conclusion that it pales in comparison to his. I can't think of any logical reason while spirituality should be any different. In fact I'm convinced that's what God wants. He wants spiritual trainers whose sole purpose is to recreate new spiritual trainers among everyone who comes to them for spiritual growth. At times in the journey the student becomes the teacher and the teacher the student. Then the new covenant promise is fulfilled And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

It's such a simple idea. And sure, it's just a simple idea stacked up against millennia of tradition and writings of people much smarter than me. And "having no way as way and no limitation as limitation" (the motto of Jeet Kune Do), is a simple idea stacked up against millennia of tradition an writings of people much smarter than Bruce Lee.

[TER]

Hello jmdrake! It is good to see you around. You have been missed. I hope you are enjoying the summer!

With regards to your post above, first let me thank you for the thoughtful remarks. I would first correct you when you say that the Orthodox Church is in communion with the Roman Catholic Church. We are not. Secondly, the Branch Theory does not refer to Christ being the vine and we the branches. While that is true, that refers to the Church and it's members, not those who are not. Those who are not yet members must first be grafted on. If they were already a branch connected to the vine, they would not have to be grafted to begin with!

The Branch Theory is a theological hypothesis within Anglicanism holding that the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Anglican Communion are the three principal branches of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. It has variants within the Protestant world which teach similar ideas that the One Body of Christ is divided in parts. This is a modern heresy which is a result of the pluralistic and relativistic spirit of the times which states that the Church is divided into various branches, making the One Body of Christ into numerable bodies which is a Christological error. It also goes completely against the patristic witness of the Church from its inception. These two reasons alone (it's modern innovation and completely going against the teachings of the saints of old, aside from the many Christological, ecclesiological, and soteriological errors it introduces) are enough to demonstrate that it is heresy.

As for the remainder of your post (which I very much enjoyed and found much to agree with), it does falls into the error of diminishing the Church which is the living divine-human Body of Christ in which we find our salvation. The Church is not merely an institution which encourages us to live a godly way, it is the very Body we find our true being and personhood through communion with the remaining members and Christ as head. Our sacramental and mystical communion through unity in faith, worship, and the grace-filled sacraments is what it means to be the Body of Christ. It is the Holy Spirit which perfects this and makes it ontologically possible in our transfiguration. But we are not transfigured apart from one another and come together on Sundays simply to give each other encouragement or guidance, but rather to commune spiritually through worship and even physically through Christ's own offered flesh, so that in the image of Christ and by the grace of the Father, we may partake in His very being and experience the fullness of life in the Holy Spirit. Not alone or individually, but together with the remaining members of the body, and as a whole, whether these members are standing next to us in the pew or have already finished the race and whose souls pray before the altar of God.

[kjw47]

To learn Jesus' truths and apply them daily is what it means to become a member of His Body, the Church. Did you read the link I posted?

Many of these teachers are found in places called a church-2Corinthians 11:12-15-- I have attended different denomnations in my years f study, never are Jesus real truths taught there, the only teachers i ever found who actually teach them are the JW teachers.

[heavenlyboy34]

Many of these teachers are found in places called a church-2Corinthians 11:12-15-- I have attended different denomnations in my years f study, never are Jesus real truths taught there, the only teachers i ever found who actually teach them are the JW teachers.

Try attending an Eastern Orthodox parish.

[jmdrake]

Hello TER. Thank you for the welcome back. And I appreciate your posts as well. I learn something new all the time and I did not know that there was a formalized "branch theory". And sorry if I mistook your position on the Roman church as being in communion with them. I guess I'm still confused on your position on that. Perhaps the word I should have used is "kinship" based on some common beliefs?

That said, I don't see what I'm saying as diminishing the role of the church. Quite the contrary. It's a different role that what you may be used to, but I see it as a more important role and a more powerful role that what is typically taught. Again, consider the example I gave of the two martial arts teachers. One was very formal (though he claimed to be "non-classical") and was steeped into tradition and for teaching things "because that's the way Bruce Lee taught them." Only in retrospect I'm not sure that was even right. He was totally against teaching grappling/ground fighting for example. But I've seen pictures of Bruce doing that and heard stories about how he loved that, but couldn't see how to fit that into the movies. Also my "traditional" teacher wouldn't teach weapons. But, supposedly, he was all about being "prepared for the street". In a street fight someone could come at me with a knife, club or gun. Just knowing hand to hand isn't enough. By contrast my "non traditional" teacher, while respecting the traditional approach, is not bound by it. Nor is he trying to have me bound to his way of thinking either. I feel more prepared to actually fight if I needed to. I even have a better handle on what I actually learned. And I had better validation of my own self-discovery in martial arts.

So why did I go through such lengths in my analogy? Because I don't want you to mistake accepting the role the Jeremiah and Hebrews gives of the church under the new covenant, where God declares you will not need a teacher, with diminishing the role of the church. What greater honor is there for a good teacher than to have students who are no longer dependent on him, but rather partner with him in spreading his teaching? With my current martial arts trainer I don't feel like the perpetual student that "never quite gets it" the way I did with the other teacher. Under the new covenant, the church members should be equipped to go and do the work of spreading the gospel the same as if they had formal seminary training. Traditions can be good things. Just like forms in martial arts. But if tradition becomes the ends as opposed to the means to the end there is the real danger of them becoming like the "dead patterns" that Bruce Lee warned against in the martial art realm.

[kjw47]

Try attending an Eastern Orthodox parish.

No need I have chosen.

[heavenlyboy34]

Hello TER. Thank you for the welcome back. And I appreciate your posts as well. I learn something new all the time and I did not know that there was a formalized "branch theory". And sorry if I mistook your position on the Roman church as being in communion with them. I guess I'm still confused on your position on that. Perhaps the word I should have used is "kinship" based on some common beliefs?

That said, I don't see what I'm saying as diminishing the role of the church. Quite the contrary. It's a different role that what you may be used to, but I see it as a more important role and a more powerful role that what is typically taught. Again, consider the example I gave of the two martial arts teachers. One was very formal (though he claimed to be "non-classical") and was steeped into tradition and for teaching things "because that's the way Bruce Lee taught them." Only in retrospect I'm not sure that was even right. He was totally against teaching grappling/ground fighting for example. But I've seen pictures of Bruce doing that and heard stories about how he loved that, but couldn't see how to fit that into the movies. Also my "traditional" teacher wouldn't teach weapons. But, supposedly, he was all about being "prepared for the street". In a street fight someone could come at me with a knife, club or gun. Just knowing hand to hand isn't enough. By contrast my "non traditional" teacher, while respecting the traditional approach, is not bound by it. Nor is he trying to have me bound to his way of thinking either. I feel more prepared to actually fight if I needed to. I even have a better handle on what I actually learned. And I had better validation of my own self-discovery in martial arts.

So why did I go through such lengths in my analogy? Because I don't want you to mistake accepting the role the Jeremiah and Hebrews gives of the church under the new covenant, where God declares you will not need a teacher, with diminishing the role of the church. What greater honor is there for a good teacher than to have students who are no longer dependent on him, but rather partner with him in spreading his teaching? With my current martial arts trainer I don't feel like the perpetual student that "never quite gets it" the way I did with the other teacher. Under the new covenant, the church members should be equipped to go and do the work of spreading the gospel the same as if they had formal seminary training. Traditions can be good things. Just like forms in martial arts. But if tradition becomes the ends as opposed to the means to the end there is the real danger of them becoming like the "dead patterns" that Bruce Lee warned against in the martial art realm.

Indeed! That is why traditional martial arts strive to maintain only the effective kata/forms and the rest are thrown out (the McDojos tend to teach such impractical styles...and some less useful forms are still taught for reasons of historical interest, introducing low ranking students to certain concepts, etc). Likewise, the ancient traditions of the Church are very much alive and take on new life as every new generation becomes part of her.

[TER]

This is a nice excerpt regarding the Church as the theanthropic (divine-human) organism in the image of the Son:

On the Relationship Between Christology and Ecclesiology

Vladimir Lossky 1903-1958

The Church, in its christological aspect, appears as an organism having two natures and two wills.

In the history of Christian dogma all the christological heresies come to life anew and reappear with reference to the Church.

Thus, there arises a Nestorian ecclesiology, the error of those who would divide the Church into distinct beings: on the one hand the heavenly and invisible Church, alone true and absolute; on the other, the earthly Church (or rather ‘the churches’) imperfect and relative, wandering into the shadows, human societies seeking to draw near, so far as possible for them, to that transcendent perfection.

A Monophysite ecclesiology, on the contrary, manifests itself in a desire to see the Church as essentially a divine being whose every detail is sacred, wherein everything is imposed with a character of divine necessity, wherein nothing can changed or modified, because human freedom, synergy, the co-operation of man with God, have no place within this hieratic organism from which the human side is excluded; this is a magic of salvation operative through sacraments and rites faithfully carried out.

These two ecclesiological heresies of opposite tendency appeared, almost at the same time, during the course of the seventeenth century. The first (the Eastern Protestantism of Cyril Loukaris) arose within the jurisdiction of the patriarchate of Constantinople; the second developed in Russia, in the form of the schism (raskol) known as that of the ‘Old Believers’. The two ecclesiological errors were crushed by the great councils of Jerusalem and of Moscow.

Monotheletism in ecclesiology is expressed above all in a negation of the economy of the Church in regard to the external world, for the salvation of which the Church is founded.

The contrary error (which could not have a precedent in the Christological heresies, unless it be in a semi-Nestorianism) consists in an attitude of compromise which is ready to sacrifice the truth to the exigencies of ecclesiastical economy in relation to the world. This is the ecclesiological relativism, a danger proper to the ‘ecumenical’ movement and to other similar trends.

The Apollinarian heresy, which denied the human understanding in the manhood of Christ, shows itself in the realm of ecclesiology in the refusal to acknowledge the full human consciousness – as, for example, in the doctrinal ministry of the Church, when the truth is regarded as being revealed in councils like a deus ex machina, independently of those present.

Thus, all that can be asserted or denied about Christ can equally well be applied to the Church, inasmuch as it is a theandric organism, or, more exactly, a created nature inseparably united to God in the hypostasis of the Son, a being which has – as He has – two natures, two wills and two operations which are at once inseparable and yet distinct.

(Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church. Two Aspects of the Church, pp. 186-187)

[TER]

1 Corinthians 6:15

Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.” But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.

[TER]

St. Irenaeus died ca. 202

True knowledge is [that which consists in] the doctrine of the apostles and the ancient constitution of the Church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place, and has come even unto us, being guarded and preserved without any forging of Scriptures, by a very complete system of doctrine, and neither receiving addition nor [suffering] curtailment [in the truths which she believes]; and [it consists in] reading [the word of God] without falsification, and a lawful and diligent exposition in harmony with the Scriptures, both without danger and without blasphemy; and [above all, it consists in] the pre-eminent gift of love, 2 Cor. 8:1, 1 Cor. 13 which is more precious than knowledge, more glorious than prophecy and which excels all the other gifts [of God]. (Against Heresies 4.33.8)

[TER]

Where is the Church?

St. Ignatius of Antioch ca. 50-117

See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. (Epistle to the Smyrnaeans, 8)



St. Irenaeus of Lyons died ca. 202

For in the Church, it is said, God has set apostles, prophets, teachers, 1 Cor. 12:28 and all the other means through which the Spirit works; of which all those are not partakers who do not join themselves to the Church, but defraud themselves of life through their perverse opinions and infamous behaviour. For where the Church is, there is the Spirit of God; and where the Spirit of God is, there is the Church, and every kind of grace; but the Spirit is truth. (Against Heresies Bk. 3.24.1)

[heavenlyboy34]

This is a nice excerpt regarding the Church as the theanthropic (divine-human) organism in the image of the Son:

On the Relationship Between Christology and Ecclesiology

Vladimir Lossky 1903-1958

The Church, in its christological aspect, appears as an organism having two natures and two wills.

In the history of Christian dogma all the christological heresies come to life anew and reappear with reference to the Church.

Thus, there arises a Nestorian ecclesiology, the error of those who would divide the Church into distinct beings: on the one hand the heavenly and invisible Church, alone true and absolute; on the other, the earthly Church (or rather ‘the churches’) imperfect and relative, wandering into the shadows, human societies seeking to draw near, so far as possible for them, to that transcendent perfection.

A Monophysite ecclesiology, on the contrary, manifests itself in a desire to see the Church as essentially a divine being whose every detail is sacred, wherein everything is imposed with a character of divine necessity, wherein nothing can changed or modified, because human freedom, synergy, the co-operation of man with God, have no place within this hieratic organism from which the human side is excluded; this is a magic of salvation operative through sacraments and rites faithfully carried out.

These two ecclesiological heresies of opposite tendency appeared, almost at the same time, during the course of the seventeenth century. The first (the Eastern Protestantism of Cyril Loukaris) arose within the jurisdiction of the patriarchate of Constantinople; the second developed in Russia, in the form of the schism (raskol) known as that of the ‘Old Believers’. The two ecclesiological errors were crushed by the great councils of Jerusalem and of Moscow.

Monotheletism in ecclesiology is expressed above all in a negation of the economy of the Church in regard to the external world, for the salvation of which the Church is founded.

The contrary error (which could not have a precedent in the Christological heresies, unless it be in a semi-Nestorianism) consists in an attitude of compromise which is ready to sacrifice the truth to the exigencies of ecclesiastical economy in relation to the world. This is the ecclesiological relativism, a danger proper to the ‘ecumenical’ movement and to other similar trends.

The Apollinarian heresy, which denied the human understanding in the manhood of Christ, shows itself in the realm of ecclesiology in the refusal to acknowledge the full human consciousness – as, for example, in the doctrinal ministry of the Church, when the truth is regarded as being revealed in councils like a deus ex machina, independently of those present.

Thus, all that can be asserted or denied about Christ can equally well be applied to the Church, inasmuch as it is a theandric organism, or, more exactly, a created nature inseparably united to God in the hypostasis of the Son, a being which has – as He has – two natures, two wills and two operations which are at once inseparable and yet distinct.

(Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church. Two Aspects of the Church, pp. 186-187)

I've read a bit about the "Old Believers" in my study for a novel/opera I'm researching set in the Soviet era. Is there more about them in the book cited? If not, further reading would be appreciated. ~hugs~

[TER]

On the Pre-eternal Church


Eph. 1:4 …even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him.

St. Clement of Rome fl. ca. 80-102

And I do not suppose ye are ignorant that the living Church is the body of Christ: for the scripture saith, God made man, male and female. The male is Christ and the female is the Church. And the Books and the Apostles plainly declare that the Church existeth not now for the first time, but hath been from the beginning: for she was spiritual, as our Jesus also was spiritual, but was manifested in the last days that He might save us. (2nd Clement 14.2)

Hermas ca. 90

Now a revelation was given to me, my brethren, while I slept, by a young man of comely appearance, who said to me, "Who do you think that old woman is from whom you received the book?" And I said, "The Sibyl." "You are in a mistake," says he; "it is not the Sibyl." "Who is it then?" say I. And he said, "It is the Church." And I said to him, "Why then is she an old woman?" "Because," said he, "she was created first of all. On this account is she old. And for her sake was the world made." (The Shepherd of Hermas Bk. 1:Vision 2.4)

[TER]

I've read a bit about the "Old Believers" in my study for a novel/opera I'm researching set in the Soviet era. Is there more about them in the book cited? If not, further reading would be appreciated. ~hugs~

The book cited, "Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church", has little to nothing more to say about the Old Believers other than what was in that quote IIRC. I do highly recommend you reading this book though, as it is one of the most referenced Orthodox theological books of the 20th century. A masterpiece in fact.

With regards to the Old Believers, I have studied/read little about them. I will try to search around and give you any links I can find...

BTW, what is going on with the Book of Tobit opera??

[TER]

St. Optatus of Milevis ca. 4th cent.

Catholicism is constituted by a simple and true understanding in the law, by an unique and most true mystery, and by unity of minds. But schism, after the bond of peace has been broken, is brought into existence through passion, is nourished by hatred, is strengthened by envy and dissensions, so that the Catholic Mother is abandoned, whilst her unfilial children go forth outside and separate themselves (as you have done) from the root of Mother Church—-cut off by the shears of their hatred—-and wickedly depart in rebellion. They are not able, however, to do anything new, or different from that which long ago they learned from their Mother. (Against the Donatists, Bk.1.11)

[heavenlyboy34]

The book cited, "Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church", has little to nothing more to say about the Old Believers other than what was in that quote IIRC. I do highly recommend you reading this book though, as it is one of the most referenced Orthodox theological books of the 20th century. A masterpiece in fact.

With regards to the Old Believers, I have studied/read little about them. I will try to search around and give you any links I can find...

BTW, what is going on with the Book of Tobit opera??

Progress is slow at the moment. Fr. Chris is helping me with background research so I can "fill out" the plot more. I'm hoping to get at least a scene or two done this season, even if only rough drafts.

[TER]

St. Athanasius the Great ca. 293-373

So something surprising and startling has happened; for the death, which they thought to inflict as a disgrace, was actually a monument of victory against death itself. Whence neither did He suffer the death of John, his head being severed, nor, as Esaias, was He sawn in sunder; in order that even in death He might still keep His body undivided and in perfect soundness, and no pretext be afforded to those that would divide the Church. (On the Incarnation of the Word 24.4)

[TER]

Progress is slow at the moment. Fr. Chris is helping me with background research so I can "fill out" the plot more. I'm hoping to get at least a scene or two done this season, even if only rough drafts.