Islamic prayers to be held at the Vatican

[RJB]

Do you seriously not see the difference between judging based on a completely different view of what the sacrifice of Jesus Christ did, and judging based on a different view of judging? Really?

You neg repped me over a joke about the similarities between you and OTC, yet you seriously post that there is no difference between Catholicism and Islam!? Are you out of your mind!? Between you and the OTCer, you are minor sects in a larger religion that includes Catholicism.

To throw a tizzy over that defies logic, history, theology and biblical interpretation as I demonstrated above.

Your "Gospel" involves taking 1 verse (out of context) out of the entire book of Romans, 1 verse (out of context) out of the entire book of Ephesians and 1 verse (out of context) out of the book of Galatians and ignoring the rest of the bible, then clinging to your formula in a Rainman like fashion. For an early Christian to have heard the full "gospel" according to Fanatic (before the bible was canonized by the Catholic Church) this early Christian would have had to have taken a boat from Rome, to Galatia, to Ephesus...

Unfreaking believeable!

[Terry1]

Every post in the forum is posted for the purpose of a response.



Well Terry, for about 3 years I was under the impression that our wonderful brother TER was actually a female. Must be his gentle nature. . So I just keep everything generalized now.
Sorry that you felt the need to go back and count. LOL.
But seriously, again with the judging thing? Who are you to judge me? Who are you to assume my motives? Walking in dangerous territory playin God Missy.
.

Playing the victim now after you've created a thread to incite hatred against the Catholics while implying that we're deceived at the same time and pleading for us to "do our research". Nice move there Annie--I'm not buying it. Kevin007 and FF were your main players in this thread--the same two that are obsessed with the Catholics. All you do is encourage them and give them more fuel for the fire-- I'm not the one who's blind here.

Terry, any human being walking earth has the ability to be deceived. Not every post is protestant vs Catholic.
I seriously think you don't give Catholics enough credit. I know full well that Catholics do not consider the Pope to be their God. I think that they are fully about to recognize the Pope is right or wrong of their own accord. Catholics follow Jesus, not the Pope.

Good--then I assume you won't be creating any more of these threads that imply otherwise.

How you judge me is between you and God. But I can tell you that it is absolutely obvious that you are not on this thread to discuss the topic at hand, only just to hurl personal insults and judgements my way. I refuse to have a personal insult pissing contest with you. Sorry.

I believe you're confused again--you're not the victim here--you're the perp.

I agree that its the same. It is blasphemous. It doesn't surprise me though. I don't view Catholicism as any better than Islam. Francis is just making it obvious. I thank God that he has allowed one of his enemies to make it obvious, so that some of his people might not be deceived.

I advise everyone to come out of Babylon.

Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic

I have no idea what those things are. But I can tell you that Jews and Muslims agree that the Trinity is wrong. The ironic part is that Mormons reject Christian trinitarian teaching as well. There is no way, form, or sense in which Mormons worship the same God as Christians.

Kevin007 wrote:
you can add in the J.W.'s, Christian Science, Oneness Pentecostal's, etc...

MANY Scholar's believe the one world religion in Revelation will be either Islam or Islam/ RCC mix.

What on earth did I say that was negative about Catholics? Does disagreeing with the Pope equal negativity towards Catholics in general?

Thanks Kev, looks interesting.

My only point was that Ishmael is irrelevant, and so is the rest. The above quote is all that is relevant. In my mind this is not a whole lot different than inviting Buddhists to pray to Buddha or Hindu's to pray to their gods or even Satanists to pray to Satan,..... at the Vatican???? Seems almost blasphemous.

She's correct. I just hope she eventually figures out that we could sub "Catholicism" for Islam in every part of that post and it would still be correct.

Still feel like you're the victim here Annie?

[Deborah K]

I agree that its the same. It is blasphemous. It doesn't surprise me though. I don't view Catholicism as any better than Islam. Francis is just making it obvious. I thank God that he has allowed one of his enemies to make it obvious, so that some of his people might not be deceived.

I advise everyone to come out of Babylon.

Just curious. Why do you assume the Catholic Church is Babylon? You are aware that it was an actual city in Iraq, formerly in Mesopotamia, right? King Nebuchadnezzar and all?

[Deborah K]

You neg repped me over a joke about the similarities between you and OTC, yet you seriously post that there is no difference between Catholicism and Islam!? Are you out of your mind!? Between you and the OTCer, you are minor sects in a larger religion that includes Catholicism.

To throw a tizzy over that defies logic, history, theology and biblical interpretation as I demonstrated above.

Your "Gospel" involves taking 1 verse (out of context) out of the entire book of Romans, 1 verse (out of context) out of the entire book of Ephesians and 1 verse (out of context) out of the book of Galatians and ignoring the rest of the bible, then clinging to your formula in a Rainman like fashion. For an early Christian to have heard the full "gospel" according to Fanatic (before the bible was canonized by the Catholic Church) this early Christian would have had to have taken a boat from Rome, to Galatia, to Ephesus...

Unfreaking believeable!

Qft.

[Snew]

Believers and non-believers cannot properly "fellowship" with each other. Of course, Pope Francis isn't a believer, but if he were, he couldn't truly fellowship with a Muslim. Fellowship is supposed to be between believers.

1. friendly association, especially with people who share one's interests.
"they valued fun and good fellowship as the cement of the community"

Note that I did not say "Christian fellowship"...

[Muwahid]

Muslims worship the same God as Christians and Jews. Even if you don't believe in the teachings of the religion point by point, that doesn't mean we don't worship the same God, similar to how there are many Christian denominations, with wildly varying beliefs, but is that to say they don't believe they're worshipping the God of the Bible? If a unitarian Christian praises the lord, is that to say he's not really praising the lord, but rather... I don't know, Satan? Because he doesn't worship as you worship? Or you believe there are fundamental problems in the creed?

And when it comes to faith, actual faith, like... God creating everything, God creating Adam, and Eve, sending the message of monotheism to tribes, and nations via messengers/prophets, teaching of the devil and his fall from heaven, teaching about the afterlife and heaven and hell, teaching about the angels, teaching about judgement day, and so on and so forth... it's all very similar with some variations (which of course are significant in theology). But the overall point is those things are very close (which should be a positive thing at the very least).

The major difference is of course, the trinity, and divinity of Jesus. We believe this was the church creating their own doctrine... I've said it before here, take away ALL of the ecclesiastics in history, only have the bible, thats all you have for guidance, and study it for many years... I truly don't believe you will even think of a trinitarian God. Yes yes, I'm aware of a view verses, I'm aware of "in the beginning was the word and the word was with god and the word was god" and it's "interpretation" (still isn't explicit)... I don't see the trinity in the Bible, I don't see a strong reference to a trinity, I think it's a complex doctrine interpolated by the Church for various reasons.

[Sola_Fide]

And what does God think about our praying to other gods, Pope Francis?

Pope Francis himself prays to an idol. Rome does not have the gospel and does not believe in the God of the Bible. Federal Visionism is the error that is causing you to believe that people who don't believe the gospel can be saved.

[Christian Liberty]

Muslims worship the same God as Christians and Jews. Even if you don't believe in the teachings of the religion point by point, that doesn't mean we don't worship the same God, similar to how there are many Christian denominations, with wildly varying beliefs, but is that to say they don't believe they're worshipping the God of the Bible? If a unitarian Christian praises the lord, is that to say he's not really praising the lord, but rather... I don't know, Satan? Because he doesn't worship as you worship? Or you believe there are fundamental problems in the creed?

And when it comes to faith, actual faith, like... God creating everything, God creating Adam, and Eve, sending the message of monotheism to tribes, and nations via messengers/prophets, teaching of the devil and his fall from heaven, teaching about the afterlife and heaven and hell, teaching about the angels, teaching about judgement day, and so on and so forth... it's all very similar with some variations (which of course are significant in theology). But the overall point is those things are very close (which should be a positive thing at the very least).

The major difference is of course, the trinity, and divinity of Jesus. We believe this was the church creating their own doctrine... I've said it before here, take away ALL of the ecclesiastics in history, only have the bible, thats all you have for guidance, and study it for many years... I truly don't believe you will even think of a trinitarian God. Yes yes, I'm aware of a view verses, I'm aware of "in the beginning was the word and the word was with god and the word was god" and it's "interpretation" (still isn't explicit)... I don't see the trinity in the Bible, I don't see a strong reference to a trinity, I think it's a complex doctrine interpolated by the Church for various reasons.

I think that if you don't believe in the Trinity (whatever term you use for that) that you don't worship the same God as Christians. So, I don't think Muslims worship the same God that I do. And I don't think (non-Messianic) Jews do either.

Pope Francis himself prays to an idol. Rome does not have the gospel and does not believe in the God of the Bible. Federal Visionism is the error that is causing you to believe that people who don't believe the gospel can be saved.

Just cause I'm curious, do you believe that the bold is in and of itself a damnable error?

Or: to put that another way: Certainly a Christian must believe the true gospel to be saved. But can a true Christian believe that its possible for someone who doesn't believe the true gospel to be saved? If Mr. A says "Mr. B believes a false gospel, but he still proclaims Jesus so I consider him saved" is this enough for you to say that Mr. A is not a brother?

And, to make this even more complicated, how does this apply to infants? Most Christians I'm aware of believe that infants can be saved without personal faith (I'm actually not sure about this myself, but I'm in the minority there, and even then I'm saying I'm not sure.) Does saying that infants can be saved without personal faith count as a denial of the gospel?

[Sola_Fide]

I think that if you don't believe in the Trinity (whatever term you use for that) that you don't worship the same God as Christians. So, I don't think Muslims worship the same God that I do. And I don't think (non-Messianic) Jews do either.



Just cause I'm curious, do you believe that the bold is in and of itself a damnable error?

Or: to put that another way: Certainly a Christian must believe the true gospel to be saved. But can a true Christian believe that its possible for someone who doesn't believe the true gospel to be saved? If Mr. A says "Mr. B believes a false gospel, but he still proclaims Jesus so I consider him saved" is this enough for you to say that Mr. A is not a brother?

And, to make this even more complicated, how does this apply to infants? Most Christians I'm aware of believe that infants can be saved without personal faith (I'm actually not sure about this myself, but I'm in the minority there, and even then I'm saying I'm not sure.) Does saying that infants can be saved without personal faith count as a denial of the gospel?

Yes. You must believe the gospel to be saved. All of God's people believe the gospel because when He saves them, He causes them to believe it.

[Christian Liberty]

Yes. You must believe the gospel to be saved. All of God's people believe the gospel because when He saves them, He causes them to believe it.

That was a given, but that wasn't the question I asked.

Since we were talking about Theocrat, if Theocrat believed the same gospel we believe, and yet said that its possible for someone who doesn't believe the gospel could be saved, does this prove that Theo isn't saved? Or is anyone who believes the gospel saved even if they have erroneous ideas about people who don't believe the gospel?

I'll just throw in my own opinion here and say that I don't think it necessarily does. Certainly saying one can be saved without believing the gospel is a serious error since it speaks peace where there isn't any and it gives people false assurance. But I don't think that doing so necessarily proves that you aren't saved.

[Sola_Fide]

That was a given, but that wasn't the question I asked.

Since we were talking about Theocrat, if Theocrat believed the same gospel we believe, and yet said that its possible for someone who doesn't believe the gospel could be saved, does this prove that Theo isn't saved? Or is anyone who believes the gospel saved even if they have erroneous ideas about people who don't believe the gospel?

I'll just throw in my own opinion here and say that I don't think it necessarily does. Certainly saying one can be saved without believing the gospel is a serious error since it speaks peace where there isn't any and it gives people false assurance. But I don't think that doing so necessarily proves that you aren't saved.

I think it proves that you are not saved. How could it not?

[heavenlyboy34]

Muslims worship the same God as Christians and Jews. Even if you don't believe in the teachings of the religion point by point, that doesn't mean we don't worship the same God, similar to how there are many Christian denominations, with wildly varying beliefs, but is that to say they don't believe they're worshipping the God of the Bible? If a unitarian Christian praises the lord, is that to say he's not really praising the lord, but rather... I don't know, Satan? Because he doesn't worship as you worship? Or you believe there are fundamental problems in the creed?

And when it comes to faith, actual faith, like... God creating everything, God creating Adam, and Eve, sending the message of monotheism to tribes, and nations via messengers/prophets, teaching of the devil and his fall from heaven, teaching about the afterlife and heaven and hell, teaching about the angels, teaching about judgement day, and so on and so forth... it's all very similar with some variations (which of course are significant in theology). But the overall point is those things are very close (which should be a positive thing at the very least).

The major difference is of course, the trinity, and divinity of Jesus. We believe this was the church creating their own doctrine... I've said it before here, take away ALL of the ecclesiastics in history, only have the bible, thats all you have for guidance, and study it for many years... I truly don't believe you will even think of a trinitarian God. Yes yes, I'm aware of a view verses, I'm aware of "in the beginning was the word and the word was with god and the word was god" and it's "interpretation" (still isn't explicit)... I don't see the trinity in the Bible, I don't see a strong reference to a trinity, I think it's a complex doctrine interpolated by the Church for various reasons.

This is incorrect, except in certain denominations. Traditionally, Christians consider the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit equally God. Muslims and other semitic peoples (as well as many Christian denominations) reject this.

[Christian Liberty]

I think it proves that you are not saved. How could it not?

Because people aren't always consistent.

Consider the following syllogism:

1. All who believe a false gospel gospel are unsaved.

2. Baptismal regenerationists believe a false gospel

3. Baptismal regenerationists are unsaved.

Sensible and logical enough, right? This is the only logical conclusion. But then you get awkward ones like this:

1. Yes, you have to believe the true gospel to be saved.

2. No, Baptismal regenerationists do not believe the true gospel.

3. I'm not willing to say that all baptismal regenerationists are lost.

Now you have an illogical and awkward syllogism. Yet, when I debated this issue with my mom awhile back, this was essentially the argument she used (Not this formal, but more or less.) I can also say that my mind was made for logical argument in a way most other people's minds aren't. I get incredibly frustrated when I feel I'm missing a piece of a logical puzzle or that I'm inconsistent about anything. Most people don't really care.

I have no problem judging someone unsaved if they believe in a consistent, or even semi-consistent set of premises that clearly lead to a false gospel. I have no qualms about saying Pope Francis is an unsaved man. I'm more hesitant when someone's premises aren't actually consistent. That's obviously not to say that everyone who is inconsistent is saved. Its not even to deny that being inconsistent can indicate lostness at times. But I don't think it always does either.

If somebody told me that they thought that some people who reject the gospel are saved, but nonetheless is confessing the true gospel to me, I'd be asking clarifying questions and trying to get to the bottom of what he really believes. I wouldn't immediately say he isn't saved.

Maybe I'm not saved either

[Sola_Fide]

This is incorrect, except in certain denominations. Traditionally, Christians consider the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit equally God. Muslims and other semitic peoples (as well as many Christian denominations) reject this.

Traditionally? You think tradition is enough to defend the nature of God? Bizarre....

[Christian Liberty]

Traditionally? You think tradition is enough to defend the nature of God? Bizarre....

Err... I think you're jumping the bullet on this one. If I had said the same thing would you have responded the same way? Or are you just responding that way because you know HB holds tradition in too high of a regard?

His point was that there are peopled who claim to be Christians who believe differently. Now, of course those people aren't Christians, and I assume even HB would agree with that considering the Nicene CCreed. But there are Arians who say they are Christians.