Hypothetical Question for Sola_Fide

[acptulsa]

A man is dumb as a bag of hammers.

He sets out to learn the Five Points but it's all Έλληνας to him. He might as well be looking at quadratic equations, for all the sense he can make of it. He memorizes them--sort of--but by the time they get shoved through his thick skull there's nothing recognizable left of them.

When he's not trying and failing to learn that stuff, he's respectful and kind to everyone. He never gets to work with his lunch, because he has given it to a homeless person on the way in. He seldom gets home with his coat on in the winter for the same reason. But the Five Points remain, to him, pure double dutch.

Heaven or hell? Elect or made to be smashed to shards?

[Christian Liberty]

I know I'm not Sola, but the question is worded in a way that is a strawman. While I think Sola would say that a Christian cannot affirm any of the points of Arminianism, I am certain he would not say that one must have the "five points" memorized. Sola's argument, I think, would go something like this;

Biblically, Jesus Christ redeemed a specific group of people and his sacrifice made it 100% certain that those people would be saved, because Jesus never fails in his efforts to save anyone.

Arminians make God out to be a failure, they believe in a synergistic process in which man must cooperate with God in order to make salvation actual. This is a false gospel that cannot save.

This does not mean that one must have a list of points recognized in order to be saved, only that no saved person will claim that Christ's death did not accomplish redemption for all whom it was intended.

[Brett85]

I know I'm not Sola, but the question is worded in a way that is a strawman. While I think Sola would say that a Christian cannot affirm any of the points of Arminianism, I am certain he would not say that one must have the "five points" memorized. Sola's argument, I think, would go something like this;

Biblically, Jesus Christ redeemed a specific group of people and his sacrifice made it 100% certain that those people would be saved, because Jesus never fails in his efforts to save anyone.

Arminians make God out to be a failure, they believe in a synergistic process in which man must cooperate with God in order to make salvation actual. This is a false gospel that cannot save.

This does not mean that one must have a list of points recognized in order to be saved, only that no saved person will claim that Christ's death did not accomplish redemption for all whom it was intended.

It's also not true that Arminians believe that Christ's death didn't actually save anyone. We believe that Christ's death saved everyone whom he foreknew would choose to accept his free offer of grace. It's not like there was some possibility that Christ would die in vain, that not a single person would actually choose to accept his gift on the cross. So you're pretty good at building straw men yourself.

[acptulsa]

So you're pretty good at building straw men yourself.

Better than I am.

I know the guy I described. I've known a few over the years.

[Christian Liberty]

It's also not true that Arminians believe that Christ's death didn't actually save anyone. We believe that Christ's death saved everyone whom he foreknew would choose to accept his free offer of grace. It's not like there was some possibility that Christ would die in vain, that not a single person would actually choose to accept his gift on the cross. So you're pretty good at building straw men yourself.

I'm just answering the question the way I think Sola would answer it...

[acptulsa]

Probably did good, too.

He has built scarecrows for us before.

[Brett85]

I'm just answering the question the way I think Sola would answer it...

Ok, but I think that you and Sola have both made the case before that Arminians believe that Christ died in vain, that we believe there was some chance that Christ's death wouldn't have saved anyone. That simply isn't what Arminians believe.

[Christian Liberty]

Ok, but I think that you and Sola have both made the case before that Arminians believe that Christ died in vain, that we believe there was some chance that Christ's death wouldn't have saved anyone. That simply isn't what Arminians believe.

Ok... I'll stop trying to answer for him and try to answer for myself

I would not claim (And I don't think Sola would either) that Arminians believe there was some chance nobody would have accepted Jesus Christ's sacrifice. I don't see how this possibility is avoidable in open theism, but I realize that most Arminians aren't open theists. I would claim, however, that Arminianism denies the EFFECTUALITY of the atonement of Christ. It doesn't actually accomplish anything on behalf of those people for whom it is intended. Rather, it requires some contribution of the sinner to be made actual. This is a watering down of the atonement.

Sola would say that this automatically makes the person who does this unsaved. In a vacuum, I wouldn't necessarily go along with this, but its a serious matter nonetheless. Again, why are you saved and John Doe (random unbeliever) not? Why wasn't Christ's sacrifice on John Doe's behalf enough to save him?

[Christian Liberty]

To answer the OP for myself, no I would not say the man is unsaved, unless he thinks his works somehow merit acceptance before God.

[VIDEODROME]

To answer the OP for myself, no I would not say the man is unsaved, unless he thinks his works somehow merit acceptance before God.

Interesting. I thought you guys were saying a person has no way to influence their salvation? Their status as 'Elect' is entirely up to God.

But while you can't do anything to become Elect, you can lose that status through your own actions or flawed beliefs?

[Sola_Fide]

Ok, but I think that you and Sola have both made the case before that Arminians believe that Christ died in vain, that we believe there was some chance that Christ's death wouldn't have saved anyone. That simply isn't what Arminians believe.

In the Arminian/Roman Catholic/synergist view, it is most certainly true that Christ's death would not have saved anyone unless their free will would have cooperated with grace.

Again, the word for foreknow, proginosko, is used in the NT in the context of God knowing PEOPLE, not foreseen choices. This has been pointed out to you dozens of times on this boards. You have been corrected over and over again, but you love your fantasy of the will, and you stop at nothing to hear what your itching ears want to hear.

[Brett85]

Again, the word for foreknow, proginosko, is used in the NT in the context of God knowing PEOPLE, not foreseen choices. This has been pointed out to you dozens of times on this boards. You have been corrected over and over again, but you love your fantasy of the will, and you stop at nothing to hear what your itching ears want to hear.

No, I've pointed out to you that it can mean both. The word has multiple meanings.

[Brett85]

Again, why are you saved and John Doe (random unbeliever) not? Why wasn't Christ's sacrifice on John Doe's behalf enough to save him?

Because I chose to open the door, and he didn't.

Revelation 3:20

"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me."

The Holy Spirit knocks on the door. He doesn't force his way in.

[Sola_Fide]

A man is dumb as a bag of hammers.

He sets out to learn the Five Points but it's all Έλληνας to him. He might as well be looking at quadratic equations, for all the sense he can make of it. He memorizes them--sort of--but by the time they get shoved through his thick skull there's nothing recognizable left of them.

When he's not trying and failing to learn that stuff, he's respectful and kind to everyone. He never gets to work with his lunch, because he has given it to a homeless person on the way in. He seldom gets home with his coat on in the winter for the same reason. But the Five Points remain, to him, pure double dutch.

Heaven or hell? Elect or made to be smashed to shards?

When God regenerates a man, He gives that man (no matter how elementary it is) a knowledge of the gospel of grace. Even if that man is as dumb as a box of rocks. Even if that man knows simply "Jesus died in my place". Even if that man is mentally retarded. Even if it is a baby in the womb that can't utter a word yet. God makes a person believe the gospel.


The reason people don't believe the doctrine of grace is not that they don't understand it and not that they can't comprehend it....it is because they hate it. The gospel if grace is a stumbling block to the natural man. The natural man hates it because it contradicts his most basic sinful inclination (that he must do something to be saved because his efforts are pleasing to God). The natural man hates the gospel of grace also because it renders him hopeless. It takes away his autonomy.

[RJB]

When God regenerates a man, He gives that man (no matter how elementary it is) a knowledge of the gospel of grace. Even if that man is as dumb as a box of rocks. Even if that man knows simply "Jesus died in my place". Even if that man is mentally retarded. Even if it is a baby in the womb that can't utter a word yet. God makes a person believe the gospel.

How awesome! That is what every Christian on this forum that you make war with believes. Now we can have peace and rest from these silly arguments. God bless you brother

[Brett85]

The reason people don't believe the doctrine of grace is not that they don't understand it and not that they can't comprehend it....it is because they hate it. The gospel if grace is a stumbling block to the natural man. The natural man hates it because it contradicts his most basic sinful inclination (that he must do something to be saved because his efforts are pleasing to God). The natural man hates the gospel of grace also because it renders him hopeless. It takes away his autonomy.

What does your theology have to do with grace? It's basically the exact opposite of grace. You believe that God wants the vast majority of human beings that have ever lived to not be saved and be thrown into the lake of fire. It's completely hypocritical and ridiculous for you to call your theology the doctrine of grace.

[Sola_Fide]

Because I chose to open the door, and he didn't.

Revelation 3:20

"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me."

The Holy Spirit knocks on the door. He doesn't force his way in.

Exactly. It is not God's will in the sacrifice of Christ alone that is the reason you are saved. It is because of your will.

[Brett85]

Even if that man is mentally retarded. Even if it is a baby in the womb that can't utter a word yet. God makes a person believe the gospel.

I don't think anyone in the entire world is going to take you seriously when you claim that a baby in the womb and a mentally retarded person is capable of believing the gospel.

[Sola_Fide]

How awesome! That is what every Christian on this forum that you make war with believes. Now we can have peace and rest from these silly arguments. God bless you brother

Neither Roman Catholicism or Arminianism believes that.

[Brett85]

Exactly. It is not God's will in the sacrifice of Christ alone that is the reason you are saved. It is because of your will.

I just quoted a Bible verse. It speaks for itself.

[Sola_Fide]

I don't think anyone in the entire world is going to take you seriously when you claim that a baby in the womb and a mentally retarded person is capable of believing the gospel.

Then you should be ashamed that you would limit the power of the Holy Spirit. There is NOTHING that will stop the Sovereign Lord of the Universe from securing the elect's salvation....not their age, not their mental capacity, nothing.

[RJB]

Neither Roman Catholicism or Arminianism believes that.

I know you were conditioned with your silly formulas, but you are very wrong about what I believe.

[acptulsa]

When God regenerates a man, He gives that man (no matter how elementary it is) a knowledge of the gospel of grace. Even if that man is as dumb as a box of rocks. Even if that man knows simply "Jesus died in my place". Even if that man is mentally retarded. Even if it is a baby in the womb that can't utter a word yet. God makes a person believe the gospel.

Then what purpose does scripture serve?

[Sola_Fide]

I know you were conditioned with your silly formulas, but you are very wrong about what I believe.

No I am not wrong. I know exactly what Rome teaches in regards to salvation, and I know exactly why it is wrong.

[Brett85]

Then you should be ashamed that you would limit the power of the Holy Spirit. There is NOTHING that will stop the Sovereign Lord of the Universe from securing the elect's salvation....not their age, not their mental capacity, nothing.

A baby or a mentally retarded person isn't capable of understanding the Lord's commandments and aren't going to be held accountable for breaking his commandments. They're innocent and will go to heaven when they die. They aren't capable of understanding the gospel, as anyone with any common sense would know. But they're innocent people who will be in God's presence when they die.

[Sola_Fide]

Then what purpose does scripture serve?

Scripture serves the purpose of being a means of sanctification. This is very important to understand. Read this:

The Means Of Sanctification
http://www.trinityfoundation.org/journal.php?id=158

[Christian Liberty]

Interesting. I thought you guys were saying a person has no way to influence their salvation? Their status as 'Elect' is entirely up to God.

But while you can't do anything to become Elect, you can lose that status through your own actions or flawed beliefs?

No, this is a misunderstanding. Elect people believe the true gospel because God causes them to do so, non-elect do not because God has not chosen them and they are sinners.

When God regenerates a man, He gives that man (no matter how elementary it is) a knowledge of the gospel of grace. Even if that man is as dumb as a box of rocks. Even if that man knows simply "Jesus died in my place". Even if that man is mentally retarded. Even if it is a baby in the womb that can't utter a word yet. God makes a person believe the gospel.


The reason people don't believe the doctrine of grace is not that they don't understand it and not that they can't comprehend it....it is because they hate it. The gospel if grace is a stumbling block to the natural man. The natural man hates it because it contradicts his most basic sinful inclination (that he must do something to be saved because his efforts are pleasing to God). The natural man hates the gospel of grace also because it renders him hopeless. It takes away his autonomy.

But would the man who simply knows "Jesus died in my place' even understand the free will debate at all? Would he even have an opinion on it? If he doesn't, does this mean he's unsaved?

I don't think anyone in the entire world is going to take you seriously when you claim that a baby in the womb and a mentally retarded person is capable of believing the gospel.

I agree with him.

A baby or a mentally retarded person isn't capable of understanding the Lord's commandments and aren't going to be held accountable for breaking his commandments. They're innocent and will go to heaven when they die. They aren't capable of understanding the gospel, as anyone with any common sense would know. But they're innocent people who will be in God's presence when they die.

How do you know they are innocent? Where are you getting that from?

[Sola_Fide]

A baby or a mentally retarded person isn't capable of understanding the Lord's commandments and aren't going to be held accountable for breaking his commandments. They're innocent and will go to heaven when they die. They aren't capable of understanding the gospel, as anyone with any common sense would know. But they're innocent people who will be in God's presence when they die.

Your common sense is not Biblical. All men, because Adam acted as their federal head, are dead in sin...whether they are geniuses or retarded. And all men in the Second Adam are accounted as righteous based on the Second Adam's perfect righteousness...whether they are geniuses or retarded.

It is not the lack of intelligence that makes one innocent, it is the righteousness of Christ account on their behalf.

[RJB]

No I am not wrong. I know exactly what Rome teaches in regards to salvation, and I know exactly why it is wrong.

That is based on your man-made formulas on your man-made doctrine.

You are brainwashed, my poor friend. I pity your blindness. Catholics and Arminians believe that Jesus Christ died in our place. You need to look past your conditioning and understand what people actually believe VS what you think other must believe for you to feel that your belief is valid.

[Brett85]

Your common sense is not Biblical. All men, because Adam acted as their federal head, are dead in sin...whether they are geniuses or retarded. And all men in the Second Adam are accounted as righteous based on the Second Adam's perfect righteousness...whether they are geniuses or retarded.

It is not the lack of intelligence that makes one innocent, it is the righteousness of Christ account on their behalf.

Everyone inherits a sinful nature from Adam, but they don't exercise that sinful nature until they've come to understand the commandments and willingly break them. That's what happened with Adam when sin entered the world. He fully understood God's command and willingly broke it. It wasn't a case where he simply wasn't aware of God's command.