Video: "The Future of Protestantism"

[Theocrat]

Worse!

I have ex-communicated him.

Translation: "I have no way of rebutting Theocrat's position on baptism, so I'm going to hide behind what the leaders in my denomination say, and just ignore him, hoping that no one will hear him."

[Sola_Fide]

Translation: "I have no way of rebutting Theocrat's position on baptism, so I'm going to hide behind what the leaders in my denomination say, and just ignore him, hoping that no one will hear him."

Theo, just to be clear, I have engaged in a discussion with you about this. It is in the Limited Atonement thread.

[Theocrat]

Theo, just to be clear, I have engaged in a discussion with you about this. It is in the Limited Atonement thread.

Bring it to this thread, Sola.

[Sola_Fide]

No, that's not quite it, Sola. Because we are justified by Christ's works, we are justified by our union with Him, whereby, Christ's works are ours (cf. Ephesians 2:10), not by merit, but by faith. The covenant, then, is the means by which the Holy Spirit works out our justified status through His work of sanctification. There is no denial of Christ's works about it.

Ask yourself this question: since God is triune, what, then, are the Father's and the Spirit's role in justification?

Respectfully, I disagree.

The problem with Federal Visionism is that man is not saved by his sanctification. He is saved by his justification. Salvation by sanctification is the great error of all the religions of men.

[Theocrat]

Respectfully, I disagree.

The problem with Federal Visionism is that man is not saved by his sanctification. He is saved by his justification. Salvation by sanctification is the great error of all the religions of men.

We're not saved by justification, Sola. We're saved by Jesus Christ, and what He did as our High Priest (after the order of Melchizedek) to reconcile us to God the Father through God the Spirit. The covenant is the bond by which that salvation is made known to us, as God's people.

[Sola_Fide]

We're not saved by justification, Sola. We're saved by Jesus Christ, and what He did as our High Priest (after the order of Melchizedek) to reconcile us to God the Father through God the Spirit. The covenant is the bond by which that salvation is made known to us, as God's people.

You know I respect your insight into many other things on the board, Theocrat, but I so strongly disagree with this that I question if you believe the gospel of Jesus Christ. The Christian doctrine of salvation is that man is saved by justification ALONE. Sanctification is not salvific in any way, shape, or form.

[Sola_Fide]

But you know I love you man. I just think that Federal Vision is a wolf in sheep's clothing. It confuses many people and sets them down the path of Rome.

[Theocrat]

You know I respect your insight into many other things on the board, Theocrat, but I so strongly disagree with this that I question if you believe the gospel of Jesus Christ. The Christian doctrine of salvation is that man is saved by justification ALONE. Sanctification is not salvific in any way, shape, or form.

Sola, you're committing the fallacy of reification because you're making a theological concept (justification) the object by which one is rescued from eternal death into eternal life. The Christian doctrine is that we can only be saved by Jesus Christ; we are not saved because of our theological position on the doctrine of justification. That's is the problem with many Reformed Christians today (of which I would still consider myself one, by the way). But you check any Reformed creed, confession, or catechism, and you will see that their perspective was that the Scriptures teach that we are saved by Christ alone, not by justification alone.

[Sola_Fide]

Sola, you're committing the fallacy of reification because you're making a theological concept (justification) the object by which one is rescued from eternal death into eternal life. The Christian doctrine is that we can only be saved by Jesus Christ; we are not saved because of our theological position on the doctrine of justification. That's is the problem with many Reformed Christians today (of which I would still consider myself one, by the way). But you check any Reformed creed, confession, or catechism, and you will see that their perspective was that the Scriptures teach that we are saved by Christ alone, not by justification alone.

No, I'm not saying we are saved by our belief in justification. I'm saying the objective action of forensic justification is the reason that a man is saved. Sanctification in a justified believer's life is not salvific...it is merely the spirit of God working in an already saved and justified believer.

[Theocrat]

No, I'm not saying we are saved by our belief in justification. I'm saying the objective action of forensic justification is the reason that a man is saved. Sanctification in a justified believer's life is not salvific...it is merely the spirit of God working in an already saved and justified believer.

Sanctification is the Holy Spirit's role in our justification, Sola. That doesn't mean that we have to earn God's favor because we are doing good works in God's sight; it's not a merit-based system. We're talking about renewed life, which finds its locus in the covenant, because God loves us. No one is saved by doing his own good works, I agree, but the Bible says this in Titus 2:11-14:

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world, looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ Who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity and purify unto Himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

And, again, in James 2:14-26, it says:

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith and have not works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, and one of you say unto them, "Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled"; notwithstanding, ye give them not those things which are needful to the body, what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Yea, a man may say, "Thou hast faith, and I have works." Show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well. The devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, *"Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness," and he was called the "Friend of God." Ye see, then, how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Likewise, also, was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Our works do justify us, for they are wrought by the Spirit, and they are works which separate us from Muslims, Atheists, and every other group who believes that they can be good without a relationship to God through Jesus Christ. So, there is a sense in which our justification touches on our works, but the works, themselves, are initiated by God's power in us. But, once again, this is not a "merit-based" system.

[Sola_Fide]

Sanctification is the Holy Spirit's role in our justification, Sola. That doesn't mean that we have to earn God's favor because we are doing good works in God's sight; it's not a merit-based system. We're talking about renewed life, which finds its locus in the covenant, because God loves us. No one is saved by doing his own good works, I agree, but the Bible says this in Titus 2:11-14:



And, again, in James 2:14-26, it says:



Our works do justify us, for they are wrought by the Spirit, and they are works which separate us from Muslims, Atheists, and every other group who believes that they can be good without a relationship to God through Jesus Christ. So, there is a sense in which our justification touches on our works, but the works, themselves, are initiated by God's power in us. But, once again, this is not a "merit-based" system.

No offense to you man, because you already know I respect you, but it seems like I am arguing against a Roman Catholic or an Arminian. These are the arguments of the works-salvationists....the arguments of the Judiazers who seek to add something to the already perfect work of Christ.

James is not talking about justification in the sight of God, but other men. Calvin was right when he argued this.

[Theocrat]

No offense to you man, because you already know I respect you, but it seems like I am arguing against a Roman Catholic or an Arminian. These are the arguments of the works-salvationists....the arguments of the Judiazers who seek to add something to the already perfect work of Christ.

James is not talking about justification in the sight of God, but other men. Calvin was right when he argued this.

Sola, go back and read what I wrote. In it, I said nothing about adding anything to Christ's works, nor did I say that we must work to earn our salvation. I was very careful about saying the opposite of that, which is why I repeatedly said that it's "not a merit-based system."

[Sola_Fide]

Sola, go back and read what I wrote. In it, I said nothing about adding anything to Christ's works, nor did I say that we must work to earn our salvation. I was very careful about saying the opposite of that, which is why I repeatedly said that it's "not a merit-based system."

But it seems like you are saying still that sanctification is in some way salvific, and it is not. There is NO reformed confession that says that, and if one of them did, I would repudiate it. Without the article of justification as the central theological principle of religion, there is no church. Calvin said that too, and I agree.

[Theocrat]

But it seems like you are saying still that sanctification is in some way salvific, and it is not. There is NO reformed confession that says that, and if one of them did, I would repudiate it. Without the article of justification as the central theological principle of religion, there is no church. Calvin said that too, and I agree.

Sola, I said that works and justification "touch one another," but I did not say that sanctification is "salvific." But the doctrine of justification, though true in its proper Biblical contexts, is not the central theological principle of the Christian Faith. Nowhere in the Gospels does Jesus make justification the central point of His Gospel message, and a simple word-count search of "justification" will prove that much. There is more to the Gospel than justification, anyway.

[Sola_Fide]

Sola, I said that works and justification "touch one another," but I did not say that sanctification is "salvific." But the doctrine of justification, though true in its proper Biblical contexts, is not the central theological principle of the Christian Faith. Nowhere in the Gospels does Jesus make justification the central point of His Gospel message, and a simple word-count search of "justification" will prove that much. There is more to the Gospel than justification, anyway.

No. The gospel is the imputed righteousness of Christ and His efficacious atonement. That is what the good news is. There is nothing beyond that. CREC has passed beyond a Christian denomination in my view. One good book I read about this was Not Reformed At All by John Robbins and Sean Gerety.

[Christian Liberty]

Just as a point of clarification, is the argument here over whether sacraments (baptism and the Lord's Supper) can provide sanctifying grace? Or is the point of contention about whether sacraments play a role in justification Or am I just misunderstanding the entire debate?

[Sola_Fide]

Just as a point of clarification, is the argument here over whether sacraments (baptism and the Lord's Supper) can provide sanctifying grace? Or is the point of contention about whether sacraments play a role in justification Or am I just misunderstanding the entire debate?

No...and I don't think that any Federal Vision person would go that far into sacramentalism. But it is an issue of what they think the nexus of salvation is. Is the nexus of salvation the objective event of justification, or is it the "covenant" in which a person is sanctified?

[Theocrat]

No. The gospel is the imputed righteousness of Christ and His efficacious atonement. That is what the good news is. There is nothing beyond that. CREC has passed beyond a Christian denomination in my view. One good book I read about this was Not Reformed At All by John Robbins and Sean Gerety.

Once again, Sola, you have not provided any Biblical text in the Gospels where Jesus made the doctrine of justification central to the message of the Gospel. Let's appeal to the Bible and not your personal mantra which you have received from The Trinity Foundation.

[Sola_Fide]

Once again, Sola, you have not provided any Biblical text in the Gospels where Jesus made the doctrine of justification central to the message of the Gospel. Let's appeal to the Bible and not your personal mantra which you have received from The Trinity Foundation.

How about the entire books of Romans and Galatians?

[Theocrat]

How about the entire books of Romans and Galatians?

I asked for material from any of the Gospels because, as you want us to believe, the core of the Gospel message is about justification. I want to see where Jesus Himself preached that in any of His messages recorded for us in the Gospel narratives.

[Sola_Fide]

I asked for material from any of the Gospels because, as you want us to believe, the core of the Gospel message is about justification. I want to see where Jesus Himself preached that in any of His messages recorded for us in the Gospel narratives.

Just one? (By the way, the standard that you are setting is not Biblical. The gospel is described in several epistles.) But if you want something from the gospels...

Luke 18

The Pharisee and the Publican

9 And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt: 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’

13 But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Justification by faith alone.

[Theocrat]

Just one? (By the way, the standard that you are setting is not Biblical. The gospel is described in several epistles.) But if you want something from the gospels...



Justification by faith alone.

Verse 9 tells us why Jesus gave that parable, and it had nothing to do with proving that the doctrine of justification was central to the Gospel message (and I stress the word "central"). No one is denying that justification was taught by Jesus; what is in question is whether it is the epitome of the Gospel, as you seem to suggest. Luke 18:9-14 does not prove your assertion at all, Sola.