Woe To Those Who Say The Potter Has No Hands

[pcosmar]

Uh.... so maybe people who choose God don't really choose God? They just think they do, but in fact is God making them do it?

Were that so he would be unjust.

I do not believe him to be unjust.

[Sola_Fide]

Were that so he would be unjust.

I do not believe him to be unjust.

When your opinion DIRECTLY conflicts with the Scripture, then you know you have a real problem. God is not unjust to choose whom He will:

Romans 9:12-16

Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

Salvation is taken completely out of the realm of man's effort. It does not depend on man's effort but on God's mercy. This is the JUST thing to do, because if salvation was dependent on man's effort, none of us could be saved. We do not have the righteousness needed to stand in the presence of God.

[Terry1]

But....but...this mentality just doesn't work in our "throw away" society.

True, these kinds of people are useless to secular society because they're unable to produce and contribute to it. But they also exist like Jesus said the poor who would always be with us and are here for a purpose as well. I believe the poor, needy and disabled serve as the means by which we're called to help. The love we have for God is revealed in the way we care for those who need us.

[pcosmar]

Or say a spontaneous organic flash mob as inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Interesting perspective.. might have to chew on that a bit.

He has slowed the sun in the past,, so altering Perception of time,, Folks have been taken from place to place in a moment of time.

Thought I have generally seen time as linear,, as opposed to eternity..which strikes me as more fluid.

[pcosmar]

Salvation is taken completely out of the realm of man's effort. It does not depend on man's effort but on God's mercy. This is the JUST thing to do, because if salvation was dependent on man's effort, none of us could be saved. We do not have the righteousness needed to stand in the presence of God.

I do not disagree with that.. any of that..

You are looking for disagreements where there are few. The only real difference of opinion (and we will know when we see Him) Is whether there is any free will,, or if we are nothing but puppets on strings.

I believe that Free Will was the Main reason for creation. You apparently do not.

[jmdrake]

I do not disagree with that.. any of that..

You are looking for disagreements where there are few. The only real difference of opinion (and we will know when we see Him) Is whether there is any free will,, or if we are nothing but puppets on strings.

I believe that Free Will was the Main reason for creation. You apparently do not.

^Endless hours of often rankerous debate beautifully and succinctly summed up.

[Sola_Fide]

I do not disagree with that.. any of that..

You are looking for disagreements where there are few. The only real difference of opinion (and we will know when we see Him) Is whether there is any free will,, or if we are nothing but puppets on strings.

I believe that Free Will was the Main reason for creation. You apparently do not.

Yes. You believe that man's will is the main reason for creation, and the Bible says that God's glory is the main reason for creation.

This is the difference between the man-centered false gospel of free will, and the God centered gospel of sovereign grace that the Bible teaches.

[Christian Liberty]

Yes. You believe that man's will is the main reason for creation, and the Bible says that God's glory is the main reason for creation.

This is the difference between the man-centered false gospel of free will, and the God centered gospel of sovereign grace that the Bible teaches.

I've been criticized by Calvinists for answering an unbeliever's question of why God permitted the Fall with "For his glory." Not because it wasn't true, but because it might seem "selfish" to the unbeliever. My mentality is that if a person is unwilling to worship God as he is, were they ever truly converted anyway? I can't tell you how many foolish Arminians have said to me "I wouldn't worship God if he was like that." I'm definitely not convinced that those people have ever been converted either.

[Sola_Fide]

I've been criticized by Calvinists for answering an unbeliever's question of why God permitted the Fall with "For his glory." Not because it wasn't true, but because it might seem "selfish" to the unbeliever. My mentality is that if a person is unwilling to worship God as he is, were they ever truly converted anyway? I can't tell you how many foolish Arminians have said to me "I wouldn't worship God if he was like that." I'm definitely not convinced that those people have ever been converted either.

Yes, they haven't been converted. If a person reads a "difficult" verse in the Bible and says "I can't worship a God like that", they are right. They can't.

[pcosmar]

Yes, they haven't been converted. If a person reads a "difficult" verse in the Bible and says "I can't worship a God like that", they are right. They can't.

And you have taken the role of accuser..

I have been warning against such.

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, who accused them before our God day and night.

Check yourself.

[jmdrake]

I've been criticized by Calvinists for answering an unbeliever's question of why God permitted the Fall with "For his glory." Not because it wasn't true, but because it might seem "selfish" to the unbeliever. My mentality is that if a person is unwilling to worship God as he is, were they ever truly converted anyway? I can't tell you how many foolish Arminians have said to me "I wouldn't worship God if he was like that." I'm definitely not convinced that those people have ever been converted either.

What's the difference between what you are saying that Arminians do and what you and Sola_Fide do? Both of you have said more than once that God would not be "just" if He allowed someone to choose to go to hell even after He paid the price for that person to go to heaven. You can't have it both ways. You can't criticize others for not being willing to accept God as you present Him if you are not willing to at least consider the possibility of God as they present Him.