The Logos and the Tao - split

[Christian Liberty]

No he wasn't. He believed and taught several heresies:

Did CS Lewis Go To Heaven?
http://www.trinityfoundation.org/journal.php?id=103

I agree. I don't get the evangelical fascination with Lewis. I've seen some quotes of his that were good, but he also said a lot of really awful things. If you're going to read Lewis, read with LOTS of discernment. I still need to read Mere Christianity for a friend that challenged me after I said Lewis was a heretic on the basis of one of the quotes in there.

Did CS Lewis go to heaven? I hope so. But if he did, it certainly wasn't on the basis of the faith that is revealed in what he wrote. God could have saved him before he died and I hope he did.

[Christian Liberty]

No, I havent. And why would I speak for anyone else?

Even if you had I don't see why it would be relevant. I haven't read the book in its entirety, but there is probably some stuff in the book that's good. That doesn't discount the fact that Lewis taught works salvation, purgatory, and rejected Biblical inerrency.

[eduardo89]

Even if you had I don't see why it would be relevant. I haven't read the book in its entirety, but there is probably some stuff in the book that's good. That doesn't discount the fact that Lewis taught works salvation, purgatory, and rejected Biblical inerrency.

CS Lewis didn't teach works salvation.

[Sola_Fide]

CS Lewis didn't teach works salvation.

Yes he did. He was a (mod delete) Anglican who believed in the infusion of grace theory that Rome teaches.

[eduardo89]

Yes he did. He was a (mod delete) Anglican who believed in the infusion of grace theory that Rome teaches.

The Church does not teach works-salvation, so please quit misrepresenting our beliefs. And please refrain from using the derogatory term "Romanist." Thank you.

[Christian Liberty]

Infusion grace theory = works salvation. Period. Very simple formula.

[eduardo89]

Infusion grace theory = works salvation. Period. Very simple formula.

That is completely untrue. Works salvation assumes that there is something we can do on our own to merit salvation. That has been completely condemned by the Church. We can do nothing to merit salvation. We are saved solely by grace.

[Christian Liberty]

That is completely untrue. Works salvation assumes that there is something we can do on our own to merit salvation. That has been completely condemned by the Church. We can do nothing to merit salvation. We are saved solely by grace.

Yet for some reason you are still a synergist.

I presume you think (I know you wouldn't say you know with 100% certainty) that Mother Theresa is in heaven and yet Adolf Hitler is in Hell. Why? What's the difference between the two?

[eduardo89]

Yet for some reason you are still a synergist.

Because that is what is taught in the Bible.

I presume you think (I know you wouldn't say you know with 100% certainty) that Mother Theresa is in heaven and yet Adolf Hitler is in Hell. Why? What's the difference between the two?

I do not know where either of those is, but seeing as how they lived their lives one accepted God and one rejected Him.

We can be quite certain that Hitler is in hell, however, not only because of the crimes he orchestrated as Führer (he could have repented of those), but because he committed suicide.

[RJB]

Infusion grace theory = works salvation. Period. Very simple formula.

Reformed philosophy = Antinomianism and hatred. Period. Very simple formula.

I don't believe your formula nor the one I posted above, but my false statement does reflect the inherent dishonesty in your "formula." Simplistic statements like that are a shortcut to thinking.

[Deborah K]

I am sorry you feel that way. I did not participate in that.

There's nothing with wrong with that thread. It was out in the open for all to see, and as I stated in one of my posts there; it is sort of like self-policing; it is similar to what the early Christian communities would do when trying to deal with brethren who were sowing discord. Nothing wrong with that thread at all.

[moostraks]

There's nothing with wrong with that thread. It was out in the open for all to see, and as I stated in one of my posts there; it is sort of like self-policing; it is similar to what the early Christian communities would do when trying to deal with brethren who were sowing discourse. Nothing wrong with that thread at all.

I would have felt better if they were not banned at the point in time in which it was being discussed. I understand why it was discussed. I stated I was not involved as she was barking up the wrong tree to try and draw me out on whatever vendetta is going on right now with her and S_F towards others in the religion subforum. I feel bad that someone thinks of it as us having a war room against them. It is a completely inaccurate portrayal of who we are as individuals as she should have ascertained by the fact that she wasn't shunned or ignored. If it were a real war room, we would have had some consensus of opinion and moved forward with action.

And for my response, she says sure. Still wondering what that was supposed to me. Ah well. She wants to be as loveable as a porcupine and then act persecuted, then it is her choice. I asked for clarification and got ignored. Such is life.

[Deborah K]

I would have felt better if they were not banned at the point in time in which it was being discussed. I understand why it was discussed. I stated I was not involved as she was barking up the wrong tree to try and draw me out on whatever vendetta is going on right now with her and S_F towards others in the religion subforum. I feel bad that someone thinks of it as us having a war room against them. It is a completely inaccurate portrayal of who we are as individuals as she should have ascertained by the fact that she wasn't shunned or ignored. If it were a real war room, we would have had some consensus of opinion and moved forward with action.

It was spontaneous, and it was in one of their threads. Don't feel bad that they want to believe there is a war against them. They have said it is what they want:

"My interpretation"?

Christianity is a WAR. This is not my interpretation.

Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post

Of course they don't. They refer to Christians being at war with every false religion of man. Christians are in a spiritual war with Roman Catholics for example.

You're derailing my thread. As is Nang. Reported.

Nang's and SF's posts have been removed from above thread but she was in agreement with SF that Christians are at war with other Christians - only they don't consider them Christians.

And for my response, she says sure. Still wondering what that was supposed to me. Ah well. She wants to be as loveable as a porcupine and then act persecuted, then it is her choice. I asked for clarification and got ignored. Such is life.

She was actually being pretty decent right before SF and FF returned. Then she reverted back. Now she likes to post vicious lies like the following:

Most of us know why Deborah bumped this thread.

She liked talking about mushrooms . . .in the name of religion.

This is their M.O. - they correct - then go on the attack - then play the victim when they're called on it.
As long as this kind of behavior exists on this forum, I intend to address it using every means necessary until it stops. The forum has been turned into a cesspool, and it's time to drain it.

[Sola_Fide]

I would have felt better if they were not banned at the point in time in which it was being discussed. I understand why it was discussed. I stated I was not involved as she was barking up the wrong tree to try and draw me out on whatever vendetta is going on right now with her and S_F towards others in the religion subforum. I feel bad that someone thinks of it as us having a war room against them. It is a completely inaccurate portrayal of who we are as individuals as she should have ascertained by the fact that she wasn't shunned or ignored. If it were a real war room, we would have had some consensus of opinion and moved forward with action.

And for my response, she says sure. Still wondering what that was supposed to me. Ah well. She wants to be as loveable as a porcupine and then act persecuted, then it is her choice. I asked for clarification and got ignored. Such is life.

It was spontaneous, and it was in one of their threads. Don't feel bad that they want to believe there is a war against them. They have said it is what they want:





Nang's and SF's posts have been removed from above thread but she was in agreement with SF that Christians are at war with other Christians - only they don't consider them Christians.



She was actually being pretty decent right before SF and FF returned. Then she reverted back. Now she likes to post vicious lies like the following:



This is their M.O. - they correct - then go on the attack - then play the victim when they're called on it.
As long as this kind of behavior exists on this forum, I intend to address it using every means necessary until it stops. The forum has been turned into a cesspool, and it's time to drain it.

Pardon me, but Bryan asked you already to debate IDEAS instead of making it personal. Please follow the forum guidelines.

[Deborah K]

My apologies. Mods feel free to split the thread off.

[moostraks]

Pardon me, but Bryan asked you already to debate IDEAS instead of making it personal. Please follow the forum guidelines.

Says the guy who then asked me to tell him who was flagging him??? At least be consistent...

ETA and while we are at it, if you are playing flag on this, I sure hope you flag yourself and nang to be consistent as it was she who started the complaint there is a war room against you two to which I was trying to clarify as with your accusations I was not involved. Nice to see your display of non-censorship towards those whom you disagree since you only brought this up after you had your questions satisfied. This is pathetic even for you S_F.

[otherone]

it is similar to what the early Christian communities would do when trying to deal with brethren who were sowing discourse.

+rep for the most ironic faux pas of the day!

[Deborah K]

+rep for the most ironic faux pas of the day!

I'll fix it. I do dat a lot.

[Sola_Fide]

Says the guy who then asked me to tell him who was flagging him??? At least be consistent...

ETA and while we are at it, if you are playing flag on this, I sure hope you flag yourself and nang to be consistent as it was she who started the complaint there is a war room against you two to which I was trying to clarify as with your accusations I was not involved. Nice to see your display of non-censorship towards those whom you disagree since you only brought this up after you had your questions satisfied. This is pathetic even for you S_F.

Again, this is another personal post. Please adhere to Bryan's forum guidelines and talk about ideas only.

Thank you,
SF

[acptulsa]

He who takes upon himself the slander of the world
Is the presence of the state.

Brings Jefferson, Harding and Paul to mind...

He who takes upon himself the sins of the world
Is the King of the World.

He certainly endured enough slander during His mortal coil...

[moostraks]

But you have in the past. You've conspired to get someone like me banned....someone who has spent several years in the liberty movement putting my blood sweat and tears into it.

Why would I deserve to be banned from a grassroots website like this? I'm trying to ATTRACT religious people like myself to this website and the ideas of freedom.

I'd like an answer to this Moostraks^^^

You don't flag posts?

Well now that makes me wonder. Who is doing it? Eduardo admitted to it yesterday. Who else is it?

Again, this is another personal post. Please adhere to Bryan's forum guidelines and talk about ideas only.

Thank you,
SF

And you?

[moostraks]

Again, this is another personal post. Please adhere to Bryan's forum guidelines and talk about ideas only.

Thank you,
SF

Why do you go on with someone who is clearly caught up in contradictions? Why don't you have a discussion with someone who has a consistent Christian philosophy?

Again....it's just another statement that displays you don't understand the concepts that we are talking about. You're cracking yourself up over there with your little quips that you think are so clever, but the people who know what they are talking about are not responding to it because it displays a lack of understanding.

Again, S_F, like this??

[Sola_Fide]

Again, S_F, like this??

You're making your posts personal again. Please adhere to the forum guidelines.

Thanks,
SF

[moostraks]

You're making your posts personal again. Please adhere to the forum guidelines.

Thanks,
SF

Just dealing with ideas here S_F. You are the one who brought forth the argument. I am just providing documentation to support my position.

Matthew 23:3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them. 4 They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger. 5 But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men;

[Christian Liberty]

Why all of this nonsensical drama?

I can't speak for SF or Nang, but I don't think I've ever stated my opinion one way or another as to whether Deborah K is a Christian. At the present time I don't know enough of what she believes to say with certainty. I do know enough to know SF doesn't consider her a Christian, but so what? Who cares? As erowe1 pointed out awhile ago, if you respect the opinion of the person who is telling you they are concerned for your soul, than that would be something to seriously consider. And if not, why would you care what they think about you that way? Its really that simple. Either you respect our opinions or you don't. If you don't, there's no sense caring whether or not we think you're Christians or not, since as far as you're concerned, we are just nuts. On the other hand, if you DO take our opinions seriously, than why not search the scriptures and your own heart when one of "us" (I use that term loosely) challenges the authenticity of your Christian faith? Either way, getting offended is just silly and doesn't accomplish anything.

Christianity IS spiritual war, there's no way to debate that. The Bible describes it that way, as Sola pointed out. We might quibble over what exactly that entails, but getting on Sola just for saying Christianity is a spiritual war shows that you have a problem with the Bible as well as with him.

Tread carefully when indicating such, and stop taking personal offense at things that aren't personal.

[Christian Liberty]

Just dealing with ideas here S_F. You are the one who brought forth the argument. I am just providing documentation to support my position.

Matthew 23:3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them. 4 They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger. 5 But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men;

The religious leaders were fundamentally correct on moral issues, but they didn't believe the gospel and their hearts were wicked. So, they didn't actually practice what they preached. Jesus is saying to live a holy life, but don't do what the pretenders ACTUALLY do, which is unholiness.

I don't see how this relates to Sola_Fide at all.

[Christian Liberty]

You're making your posts personal again. Please adhere to the forum guidelines.

Thanks,
SF

What happened to you Sola? A few weeks ago you were more adament than anyone that those who appealed to the moderation were cowards, and now you seem to be doing so. Did you just get sick of the one-sidedness of it all? I did.

[otherone]

Tread carefully when indicating such, and stop taking personal offense at things that aren't personal.

Or....?

[Nang]

It was spontaneous, and it was in one of their threads. Don't feel bad that they want to believe there is a war against them.

I cannot think of a better example of a group gathering together against three other people, during their absence due to a ban, to figure out how PERMANENTLY eliminate them from a web site (the instigators all act like they own.)

This was a hateful thread, and it there was any love to be found in it, others will have to point it out to me, for it is hidden from my sight.

I am surprised it still stands, for it is disgraceful.

Nang's and SF's posts have been removed from above thread but she was in agreement with SF that Christians are at war with other Christians - only they don't consider them Christians.

I have posted that there is a spiritual war occurring, because the inerrancy and necessity of Holy Scripture (and thus the gospel of Jesus Christ) is being opposed. IOW's the war has been declared by the enemy of God's Word. Not by we three. We are fighting a war, that we did not declare.

This is their M.O. - they correct - then go on the attack - then play the victim when they're called on it.
As long as this kind of behavior exists on this forum, I intend to address it using every means necessary until it stops. The forum has been turned into a cesspool, and it's time to drain it.

And this is your M.O. Gossip. Backbiting. Desire to do harm and punish. Get people banned or permabanned.

Here you show no embarrassment for your behavior at all, but swear to continue in your hatefulness . . . while the "group" lectures we three on how we should be more loving.

What a crock. What hypocrisy. How empty of godly ideas. WAY too personal!

[Christian Liberty]

Or....?

Well, it depends on what you're talking about (there were two ideas in the quoted section.) If people don't listen to the "personal offense" part, they're going to spend long portions of their lives being offended, which will likely lead to having miserable lives. To each his own. But again, I don't see why they would care so much. Again... if you respect the person who is challenging the state of your soul, why wouldn't you examine yourself? If you don't respect the person, why would it matter to you what they think at all?

I cannot think of a better example of a group gathering together against three other people, during a ban, to figure out how eliminate them from a web site.

I can't either. I've seen far worse moderation in other places than here, but never this much collusion (I wonder if this happened behind the scenes at TOL...)

This was a hateful thread,

Yikes, I feel personally attacked, since I started that thread Just kidding, of course. In all seriousness, yeah, that was bad.

and it there was any love to be found in it, others will have to point it out to me, for I do find any love in it.

Well, maybe the OP... Oh wait, I wrote it, I should be more humble

I have posted that there is a spiritual war occurring, because the inerrancy and necessity of Holy Scripture (and thus the gospel of Jesus Christ) is being opposed. IOW's the war has been declared by the enemy of God's Word. Not by we three. We are fighting a war, that we did not declare.

Of course, they see it the opposite way (unlike my last two segments, this part isn't a joke.) They see us as starting the war because they hold to the true Biblical doctrine. Unlike them, I have no DESIRE to get them banned from the site, and I probably wouldn't even use the report button if it wasn't for the fact that other people were doing so (the neg rep button and a solid response is more than sufficient.) We respect their right to compete in the marketplace of ideas, while they do not respect our right to do the same.

Lest anyone think its just the "Calvinists" who are annoyed by the whole moderation thing, Terry expressed some frustration about it to me as well. So, its not just us that see the problem.

And this is your M.O. Gossip. Backbiting. Desire to do harm and punish. Get people banned or permabanned.

Here you show no embarrassment for your behavior at all, but swear to continue in your hatefulness . . . while the "group" lectures we three on how we should be more loving.

What a crock. What hypocrisy. How empty of godly ideas. WAY too personal!

We may come across as harsh sometimes, but I think they have a heck of a lot more of it than we do. Its not even close.