Court case: How far can people go in defending their home from intruders?

[Danke]

I continue to maintain that lethal self defense is only morally and legally, in most places, justified to stop an immediate, imminent and incontravertible threat to life and limb.

That the only way to stop it is to fire on the aggressor until the threat is neutralized.

Anything else crosses the line into manslaughter or murder.

Believe it or not, but LEOs get this same training.

[squarepusher]

People breaking into your home, trying to deprive you of something that does not belong to them? No level of acceptability.

someone spits on your shoe, are you going to kill them for "assault" ? You have the same mentality of all these cops killing animals (and people) for no apparent reason than a technical legality which obviously wasn't the point of the law to begin with. People like you WILL get guns banned, because it shows there are irresponsible people out there who can't handle them.

[Danke]

Let's forget for the moment they were "teens."

How about mafia members that have broken in before, were violent and extorted money from you. Or IRS agents backed by cops who came and ransacked the place and then returned for more.

Want to send a message? Kill them.

How many more are coming for you downstairs...don't know, but be ready to kill them too.

[bunklocoempire]

Who's to say they're not a threat? You don't think a couple of crooks would seek future revenge against the person who shot them? They remain a threat as long as they remain alive.

Let's look at this situation another way: What is the benefit in having the law protect home invaders from their victims' retribution?

Benefit? More respect for law and less respect for an individual being aggressed. What could possibly go wrong... oh yeah.

I imagine the teens might've actually respected the individual more than the law as they checked out. Too little too late -but hey, no skin off the law's nose.

[rpfocus]

I would potentially agree with you but one of the teens had, according to the article, repeatedly and increasingly terrorized an old man. The fight or flight instinct will kick in. When one has lived through repeated victimization they will react differently. The fact he thought the girl laughed at him shows what was likely in his mind. The behavior of when he had neighbors call police and dragging them off the carpet, it sounds like dissociation. I would figure if he were really this cold blooded by 65 years old there should be a trail for even the most inept journalist to be able to clearly show the home owner was a threat to society and not focus on just this one situation.

Ah, ok the link I clicked on by the OP doesn't seem to have the details of the kid robbing the guy previously.

[satchelmcqueen]

interesting. sounds like the guy would have fit in good with the police. but they did break into his home. what would have they done to him if he didnt stop them? i couldnt convict him because they went to him, not him to them.

[rpfocus]

Let's forget for the moment they were "teens."

How about mafia members that have broken in before, were violent and extorted money from you. Or IRS agents backed by cops who came and ransacked the place and then returned for more.

Well.. let's not. The guy shoots the 17 year old kid twice, then shoots him in the face. The he blows away the *16* year old girl? And to justify this, you need to picture them as mafia members or IRS agents? Hmm, sorry I don't really see a couple of violent mafia extortionists here:

[squarepusher]

Let's forget for the moment they were "teens."

How about mafia members that have broken in before, were violent and extorted money from you. Or IRS agents backed by cops who came and ransacked the place and then returned for more.

Want to send a message? Kill them.

How many more are coming for you downstairs...don't know, but be ready to kill them too.

I think most people will agree, that deadly force is fine in cases where you are being threatened, lets say these "robbers" had knives, guns, and they would do anything to not get caught. There are much more effective ways to "send messages" than killing people, that is a barbaric notion that hopefully we as a society would strive to move away from. He could have fired a warning shot and they would have fled like mice. However, this homeowner wanted to be judge, jury and executioner and sentenced these 2 kids to death for theft/breaking in. This wasn't about self defense, which I do support of course the right for self defense.

I can just imagine that girl, the second one, hear gunshots and her friend get shot/murdered. She must have been scared, walked downstairs to check on her friend (knowing he was just shot), then *bam* she gets executed also. Let me ask, what if it was a neighbor who heard a gunshot going down to check if things were OK? Learning the actual details of this case is chilling to imagine that situation.

The video made is disturbing http://us.tomonews.net/this-minnesot...fense+Burglary

[ghengis86]

I think most people will agree, that deadly force is fine in cases where you are being threatened, lets say these "robbers" had knives, guns, and they would do anything to not get caught. There are much more effective ways to "send messages" than killing people, that is a barbaric notion that hopefully we as a society would strive to move away from. He could have fired a warning shot and they would have fled like mice. However, this homeowner wanted to be judge, jury and executioner and sentenced these 2 kids to death for theft/breaking in. This wasn't about self defense, which I do support of course the right for self defense.

I can just imagine that girl, the second one, hear gunshots and her friend get shot/murdered. She must have been scared, walked downstairs to check on her friend (knowing he was just shot), then *bam* she gets executed also. Let me ask, what if it was a neighbor who heard a gunshot going down to check if things were OK? Learning the actual details of this case is chilling to imagine that situation.

The video made is disturbing http://us.tomonews.net/this-minnesot...fense+Burglary

I hear gunshots at my neighbors house, I call out to him as I'm approaching the house "hey Aaron, its John, everything alright in there? You hurt buddy? Hey Aaron, I'm at the side door, you okay?"

I don't walk into a house unannounced -or preferably at all-if I just heard some shots.

Also, I didn't read, but did the girl call out to the boy before running downstairs? That might be a crucial detail.

[angelatc]

However, this homeowner wanted to be judge, jury and executioner and sentenced these 2 kids to death for theft/breaking iny

Breaking in repeatedly. The state already had made it clear they were not going to protect him. He ended it. Was it overkill? Probably. Do I think he's a threat to society? Nope. Would I punish him? Nope.

As for the pictures, whatever. Maybe if they were black hoodlums more people would be on my side.

[angelatc]

Ah, ok the link I clicked on by the OP doesn't seem to have the details of the kid robbing the guy previously.

Imagine that. They also gave him the Trayvon treatment as far as pictures go, too. Look at the video posted above: they use the mug shot of the homeowner, but not the teen?

[angelatc]

But Meshbesher said his client was hiding after break-ins that had gotten increasingly more violent.

'He became frightened and scared to live in his own home,' he said of Smith, later adding, 'He began to wear a holster and pistol in his own house. That is how afraid he is, and became.'

You can only push people so far. They pushed him too far. Game over.

[mwkaufman]

I can't send this guy to life in prison for getting his house broken into and robbed three times in a short period of time. It's pretty clear his thought process was, next time they break into my house I'll shoot them dead. I think there's a big distinction between I'm going to shoot them and I'm going to shoot them if they break in a third time in a short period. I think he should lose his guns, undergo psych evaluations, and get a security system for his house.

The town and police will all condemn him and be horrified, but it's their responsibility to make sure this sort of crime is stopped. That he could predict they were going to break in and the local police didn't do anything is embarrassing.

[Anti Federalist]

That he could predict they were going to break in and the local police didn't do anything is embarrassing.

Police are under no obligation to protect you or your property at all.

[rpfocus]

As for the pictures, whatever. Maybe if they were black hoodlums more people would be on my side.

Well yeah, because it's a lot easier to justify killing teens when you can include racism and bigotry in your reasoning...

[rpfocus]

You can only push people so far. They pushed him too far. Game over.

Hopefully the game will be over for him too.

[klamath]

If my home gets broken in to, once or twice, and I load a pistol and sleep with it...is that logically and rationally premeditated?

edit: One might say that is premeditated self defense.

Not at all the same. Hide your car to make people think you were gone (right there proves he didn't fear for his life) Lay out canvass, sit snack, occupy yourself dragging the boys body out of the way after executing him, shoot the girl, she rolls down the stairs, then make an execution style killing on her, Have the police call the cops the next morning Yep I would convict you. Sorry.

[rpfocus]

...

[Danke]

Well.. let's not. The guy shoots the 17 year old kid twice, then shoots him in the face. The he blows away the *16* year old girl? And to justify this, you need to picture them as mafia members or IRS agents? Hmm, sorry I don't really see a couple of violent mafia extortionists here:

Oh yes, let's post picture to garner sympathy for potentially armed criminal (they broke into his house previously and stole guns).

How many perpetrators were to follow? (one so far came down the steps after shots were fired, and did, as she could have, not flee) Did he know the perpetrators were not armed? Could they not pull out weapons (still not dead) as he was attacked by others while he was trying to defend himself?
Wasn't there, but he had home invaders.
Someone, invading your home. Not one, but two and possible more. And a previous rap sheet that included your home and violence.

[Danke]

I can't send this guy to life in prison for getting his house broken into and robbed three times in a short period of time. It's pretty clear his thought process was, next time they break into my house I'll shoot them dead. I think there's a big distinction between I'm going to shoot them and I'm going to shoot them if they break in a third time in a short period. I think he should lose his guns, undergo psych evaluations, and get a security system for his house.

The town and police will all condemn him and be horrified, but it's their responsibility to make sure this sort of crime is stopped. That he could predict they were going to break in and the local police didn't do anything is embarrassing.

yep

[Danke]

I think most people will agree, that deadly force is fine in cases where you are being threatened, lets say these "robbers" had knives, guns, and they would do anything to not get caught. There are much more effective ways to "send messages" than killing people, that is a barbaric notion that hopefully we as a society would strive to move away from. He could have fired a warning shot and they would have fled like mice. However, this homeowner wanted to be judge, jury and executioner and sentenced these 2 kids to death for theft/breaking in. This wasn't about self defense, which I do support of course the right for self defense.

I can just imagine that girl, the second one, hear gunshots and her friend get shot/murdered. She must have been scared, walked downstairs to check on her friend (knowing he was just shot), then *bam* she gets executed also. Let me ask, what if it was a neighbor who heard a gunshot going down to check if things were OK? Learning the actual details of this case is chilling to imagine that situation.

The video made is disturbing http://us.tomonews.net/this-minnesot...fense+Burglary

She broke into a house that her cousin repeatedly broke into and heard gun shots, time to run away.

[FloralScent]

So was it heroin or oxys? If white kids are breaking into houses repeatedly it was one of the two.

[pcosmar]

How far can people go in defending their home from intruders?

I would draw the line at mounting their heads on poles as a warning..

But short of that is fine with me.

[FloralScent]

Finally someone who gets it.

Read the rest of the thread. Lots of folks here 'get it'.

[pcosmar]

Sounds like the guy could have gone over the edge after being harassed numerous times from break ins, but the article lacks any significant back story for consideration. The media sure appears to be trying to downplay the angle the teens were guilty of criminal behavior and the fact the same boy broke in several times shouldn't be slipped in at the end of the article like a side note. The smiling teens pictures galore were also a bit leading when juxtaposed with the accused's prison photo. The response by the homeowner seems extreme but mainly because they seem to be stripping it from context of a pattern of conflict with one of the same individuals who lost his life.

I also wonder about the alleged confession. Having been there before.

Whether this was voluntary statements or an outburst after being grilled for several hours.

or if he ever said anything even similar at all.

There is a real nice Confession in Missouri that I signed Drunk. Of course it was a blank paper when I signed it..

but what does that really matter?

[thoughtomator]

What's there to get? You can't claim protection of the law while willfully breaking it, and that's what those sympathizing with the home invaders - no matter how photogenic they may be - are demanding. And this isn't some made-up modern crime we're talking about, we're talking about the basic building blocks of civilization being violated here.

You come into my home without invite, you're leaving in a bag. It's that simple. By that principle and that principle only can the crime be effectively deterred.

Now if you were going to invade someone's home, would you invade mine? Or someone who thinks you have rights while invading their home and won't use deadly force against you if you're caught?

[angelatc]

Not at all the same. Hide your car to make people think you were gone (right there proves he didn't fear for his life) Lay out canvass, sit snack, occupy yourself dragging the boys body out of the way after executing him, shoot the girl, she rolls down the stairs, then make an execution style killing on her, Have the police call the cops the next morning Yep I would convict you. Sorry.

I can pretty much assure you that if this were my house, I might go crazy enough to do the same thing. They were terrorizing an old man in his own home. Like a caged animal, this is the kind of stuff that pushes people over the edge.

[bunklocoempire]

Here's the proper way to enter an elderly person's home and badger them:



The teens could've taken a few pointers from the state when disrespecting elders and their rights.

Good luck restraining government when the line first crossed is obscured by everything that predictably or unpredictably comes after first crossing that line.

Smith should've simply voted them off his property and had those kids police themselves.

"I don't want ya in here" will always be good enough for me.

[kcchiefs6465]

It's generally a bad idea to "shoot to wound" in a break-in/self-defense situation. Without knowing the details, I'm currently inclined to say it was justified homicide.

He executed the kids.

She begged for her life, if I recall correctly (this story is somewhat old) and he spoke of point blank shooting her in the head.

ETA: My bad, didn't realize this thread was nine pages. Ignore my comment as it has probably already been posted or debunked.

[Anti Federalist]

That's the real story.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...ld-Grandmother

Here's the proper way to enter an elderly person's home and badger them:



The teens could've taken a few pointers from the state when disrespecting elders and their rights.

Good luck restraining government when the line first crossed is obscured by everything that predictably or unpredictably comes after first crossing that line.

Smith should've simply voted them off his property and had those kids police themselves.

"I don't want ya in here" will always be good enough for me.