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Thread: Court case: How far can people go in defending their home from intruders?

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by squarepusher View Post
    What reason does he have to fear for his life?
    So, if your house was broken into twice without the perps being caught, you would sleep like a baby?
    "When a portion of wealth is transferred from the person who owns it—without his consent and without compensation, and whether by force or by fraud—to anyone who does not own it, then I say that property is violated; that an act of plunder is committed." - Bastiat : The Law

    "nothing evil grows in alcohol" ~ @presence

    "I mean can you imagine what it would be like if firemen acted like police officers? They would only go into a burning house only if there's a 100% chance they won't get any burns. I mean, you've got to fully protect thy self first." ~ juleswin



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  3. #32
    Make the first shot is a kill shot imo and make sure it is a frontal shot.



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  5. #33
    This is a tough one. I need more facts. It would be tough to find him guilty however if he goes free I have the sense he'd kill again.

    One thing that bugs me is the way the news shows smiling innocent photos of the teens and a mean unshaven prison photo of the man. No bias there! That part reminds me of the Trayvon Martin case.

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    This is a tough one. I need more facts. It would be tough to find him guilty however if he goes free I have the sense he'd kill again.

    One thing that bugs me is the way the news shows smiling innocent photos of the teens and a mean unshaven prison photo of the man. No bias there! That part reminds me of the Trayvon Martin case.
    If someone broke into his home again? Or do you think he would go on a killing spree? And even if you think that, does that make him guilty or worthy of being put behind bars to preemptively stop some possible outcome that might be thought up?
    "When a portion of wealth is transferred from the person who owns it—without his consent and without compensation, and whether by force or by fraud—to anyone who does not own it, then I say that property is violated; that an act of plunder is committed." - Bastiat : The Law

    "nothing evil grows in alcohol" ~ @presence

    "I mean can you imagine what it would be like if firemen acted like police officers? They would only go into a burning house only if there's a 100% chance they won't get any burns. I mean, you've got to fully protect thy self first." ~ juleswin

  7. #35
    Sorry guys, this is not self-defense and the psychopath needs to spend the rest of his life behind bars.

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Czolgosz View Post
    Don't break into people's homes, you never know who you're gonna get on the other side of that door.
    This.

    And this bolded part:

    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtomator View Post
    I come down definitively on the side that if you break into a person's home, your life is forfeit. Even if you've already been wounded and there's no further immediate threat, the continued existence of the perpetrator(s) and the likelihood of revenge-taking is a permanent threat to the one who shot them. Effective self-defense means taking out a threat for good, not just for now.
    As cold hearted as this all sounds it is the best way to promote and preserve individual liberty. Any potential perp, including government, needs to be aware of other's rights and steer WAY clear.

    It is up to the individual to forgive those who trespass against the individual and not a group determining what should be forgiven after that line was clearly crossed. Different individuals will always be in different places in their lives as it pertains to forgiving or helping others -I'm thinking of the "coup de grace" here.

    A line was crossed when the individuals invaded the property. The sovereign nation of Smith reacted as the sovereign nation of Smith would -the invaders ignored the potential consequences of their actions. Sad stuff all around.
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  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by bunklocoempire View Post
    This.

    And this bolded part:



    As cold hearted as this all sounds it is the best way to promote and preserve individual liberty. Any potential perp, including government, needs to be aware of other's rights and steer WAY clear.

    It is up to the individual to forgive those who trespass against the individual and not a group determining what should be forgiven after that line was clearly crossed. Different individuals will always be in different places in their lives as it pertains to forgiving or helping others -I'm thinking of the "coup de grace" here.

    A line was crossed when the individuals invaded the property. The sovereign nation of Smith reacted as the sovereign nation of Smith would -the invaders ignored the potential consequences of their actions. Sad stuff all around.
    I'm not saying the guy in the OP is guilty of muder.

    But really?

    Someone breaks into your house. You point a gun at them. They put their hands up, kneel down, and say, "Please don't shoot." And you execute them anyway. You're saying that would be justified?

  10. #38
    Personally, I have no problem with the homeowner shooting the intruders, even if they were unarmed youngsters. They were clearly there to burglarize the home. As others have posted, if one does not wish to be shot, one does not do that. Period.

    What really disturbs me are the following facts, all of which the homeowner has already admitted to:

    * After hiding his vehicle to make it appear he was away from home, he sat in his basement with his rifle, pistol and a pile of snacks, just waiting for the break-in to occur. Sounds like there was no difference in his mind between defending his home and hunting ducks.

    * After shooting the intruders, he taunts both of them. ("You're dying, bitch!")

    * He has tarps already in place, just waiting for bloody bodies. He knew ahead of time he was going to shoot them and one of his biggest concerns, apparently, was not wanting to stain his basement carpet.

    * When the intruders don't die fast enough to suit him, he delivers a coup-de-gr ace to both of them. It seems clear to me that this is panicked, as some would be, to see a mortally wounded person groaning in pain. No, he clearly wants them dead.

    * He sounds like he takes a lot of forethought in dealing the death blow to the girl: "I just pulled out the 22 and I shot her," he told authorities. He said he then pulled her into the workshop, but she was still gasping, so "I did a good, clean finishing shot and she gave out the death twitch." Uhh... yeah. It's all about that death twitch, ain't it?

    * And the killings made such an impact on the guy that he.... uh... didn't bother to report it until the following day? And to a neighbor, at that?
    "He said he didn't call police because the teens were already dead and 'just cause my Thanksgiving is screwed up I don't need to screw up yours.' The next day, he asked a neighbor to call police."
    Somewhere in that mess, a very allowable home defense morphed into a rather sadistic execution.
    Last edited by KCIndy; 04-23-2014 at 01:52 PM. Reason: Fixed typo plus quote clarification

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by ClydeCoulter View Post
    So, if your house was broken into twice without the perps being caught, you would sleep like a baby?
    It doesn't sound like his safely or life were ever at risk. Technically he may of had the legal right to kill these people, but it was still cowardly. People breaking into your house may just be poor/hungry/broke. Also if he had got broken into before, he could have put up noise alarms, or hundreds of other deterrents. This guy was hunting for revenge, who knows maybe he even told these kids to come over and setup a trap for them.

    I'd say the same thing if a cop killed an unarmed person, this is the kind of guy that makes gun regulations look good.
    Last edited by squarepusher; 04-23-2014 at 01:50 PM.
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  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahApocalypse View Post
    Notice that he was retired from the State Dept. that explains a lot.

    I think that he went over the line..... but there is NO way in hell I would convict him if I was on the jury.
    Yeah, I'm with you. It's pretty bad, for sure, but they were the aggressors, not him. This was not the first time they had broken into his home. Apparently the authorities were not going to stop them from terrorizing him. He ended it.
    Last edited by angelatc; 04-23-2014 at 01:59 PM.



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  14. #41
    Sounds like the guy could have gone over the edge after being harassed numerous times from break ins, but the article lacks any significant back story for consideration. The media sure appears to be trying to downplay the angle the teens were guilty of criminal behavior and the fact the same boy broke in several times shouldn't be slipped in at the end of the article like a side note. The smiling teens pictures galore were also a bit leading when juxtaposed with the accused's prison photo. The response by the homeowner seems extreme but mainly because they seem to be stripping it from context of a pattern of conflict with one of the same individuals who lost his life.
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
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    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

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  15. #42
    The guy made his own prosecution case. Put him away for premeditated murder.

    I, for one, will not condone people acting as judge, jury and executioner, whether it be a homeowner, a cop or a retired LEO in a movie theater. If this guy had set an automatic booby trap to kill them, he would be convicted of murder. His premeditated execution of these kids is worse than that. The penalty for dumb ass kids breaking into houses is not the death penalty, with the victim being judge, jury and executioner. There's a reason victims should not make decisions on punishment. They are often no longer rational.

    Sure, if they attacked him and he defended himself that would be one thing. Executing them on a tarp is completely different.
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  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by KCIndy View Post
    Personally, I have no problem with the homeowner shooting the intruders, even if they were unarmed youngsters. They were clearly there to burglarize the home. As others have posted, if one does not wish to be shot, one does not do that. Period.

    What really disturbs me are the following facts, all of which the homeowner has already admitted to:

    * After hiding his vehicle to make it appear he was away from home, he sat in his basement with his rifle, pistol and a pile of snacks, just waiting for the break-in to occur. Sounds like there was no difference in his mind between defending his home and hunting ducks.

    * After shooting the intruders, he taunts both of them. ("You're dying, bitch!")

    * He has tarps already in place, just waiting for bloody bodies. He knew ahead of time he was going to shoot them and one of his biggest concerns, apparently, was not wanting to stain his basement carpet.

    * When the intruders don't die fast enough to suit him, he delivers a coup-de-gr ace to both of them. It seems clear to me that this is panicked, as some would be, to see a mortally wounded person groaning in pain. No, he clearly wants them dead.

    * He sounds like he takes a lot of forethought in dealing the death blow to the girl: "I just pulled out the 22 and I shot her," he told authorities. He said he then pulled her into the workshop, but she was still gasping, so "I did a good, clean finishing shot and she gave out the death twitch." Uhh... yeah. It's all about that death twitch, ain't it?

    * And the killings made such an impact on the guy that he.... uh... didn't bother to report it until the following day? And to a neighbor, at that?

    Somewhere in that mess, a very allowable home defense morphed into a rather sadistic execution.
    Yep.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by squarepusher View Post
    It doesn't sound like his safely or life were ever at risk. Technically he may of had the legal right to kill these people, but it was still cowardly. People breaking into your house may just be poor/hungry/broke. .
    People breaking into your home, trying to deprive you of something that does not belong to them? No level of acceptability.

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by moostraks View Post
    Sounds like the guy could have gone over the edge after being harassed numerous times from break ins, but the article lacks any significant back story for consideration. The media sure appears to be trying to downplay the angle the teens were guilty of criminal behavior and the fact the same boy broke in several times shouldn't be slipped in at the end of the article like a side note. The smiling teens pictures galore were also a bit leading when juxtaposed with the accused's prison photo. The response by the homeowner seems extreme but mainly because they seem to be stripping it from context of a pattern of conflict with one of the same individuals who lost his life.
    Yeah, that's the thing. This was apparently a game for the teens - "Let's terrorize Grandpa!" They wanted to make him crazy. Congrats to them on their unimaginable success!

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by squarepusher View Post
    What reason does he have to fear for his life?
    But Meshbesher said his client was hiding after break-ins that had gotten increasingly more violent.

    'He became frightened and scared to live in his own home,' he said of Smith, later adding, 'He began to wear a holster and pistol in his own house. That is how afraid he is, and became.'
    Last edited by Danke; 04-23-2014 at 02:12 PM.
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  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Yeah, that's the thing. This was apparently a game for the teens - "Let's terrorize Grandpa!" They wanted to make him crazy. Congrats to them on their unimaginable success!
    More teens will think twice about breaking and entering. Good.
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  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    I'm not saying the guy in the OP is guilty of muder.

    But really?

    Someone breaks into your house. You point a gun at them. They put their hands up, kneel down, and say, "Please don't shoot." And you execute them anyway. You're saying that would be justified?
    Please re-read my post. The line crossed is the issue and not weather a group gets to decide how an aggressed individual should forgive and help his aggressors.

    I have been burglarized quite a few times, I am also in a place in my life where I would try to forgive and help my aggressors while not putting my family at risk.

    I will NOT use government/group force to determine how another individual is supposed to react to an aggressor while being aggressed. Others have done that (and continue to do it) to me, I don't like it and it doesn't work.

    The clear line crossed is all any need be concerned with.

    Seriously, what is the benefit of a group using force to determine how you (or I, or Smith) should react to aggressors?
    Fear of man will prove to be a snare, but whoever trusts in the LORD is kept safe. Proverbs 29:25
    "I think the propaganda machine is the biggest problem that we face today in trying to get the truth out to people."
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  23. #49
    so much for "your house is your castle" going by some posters in this thread. replace him with an old lady doing multiple shots, pregnant woman doing multi shots, teen doing multi shots. Yeah, his behavior was of a man who was terrorized multiple times and going by what he did after the initial shots... he snapped.



    Quote Originally Posted by squarepusher View Post
    It doesn't sound like his safely or life were ever at risk. Technically he may of had the legal right to kill these people, but it was still cowardly. People breaking into your house may just be poor/hungry/broke. Also if he had got broken into before, he could have put up noise alarms, or hundreds of other deterrents. This guy was hunting for revenge, who knows maybe he even told these kids to come over and setup a trap for them.

    I'd say the same thing if a cop killed an unarmed person, this is the kind of guy that makes gun regulations look good.
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  24. #50
    I continue to maintain that lethal self defense is only morally and legally, in most places, justified to stop an immediate, imminent and incontravertible threat to life and limb.

    That the only way to stop it is to fire on the aggressor until the threat is neutralized.

    Anything else crosses the line into manslaughter or murder.

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    More teens will think twice about breaking and entering. Good.
    Beat me to it. If you're a teenager in or around that town, or even heard about this story, are you more or less likely to pull a B&E? Whatever the guy's fate, this incident will disincentives future break ins.

    I do agree with the posts on how the media is presenting a very biased story, glossing over the felony by the teens which put this wheel in motion.

    If they wouldn't broken into the home, they'd still be alive.

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtomator View Post
    I come down definitively on the side that if you break into a person's home, your life is forfeit. Even if you've already been wounded and there's no further immediate threat, the continued existence of the perpetrator(s) and the likelihood of revenge-taking is a permanent threat to the one who shot them. Effective self-defense means taking out a threat for good, not just for now.
    Killing two teenagers who have already been shot and aren't a threat is not self defense, it's an execution. I'm sure there will be people on the jury to get him off, unfortunately. I predict a hung jury due to some dope that wont convict him.

  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    I continue to maintain that lethal self defense is only morally and legally, in most places, justified to stop an immediate, imminent and incontravertible threat to life and limb.

    That the only way to stop it is to fire on the aggressor until the threat is neutralized.

    Anything else crosses the line into manslaughter or murder.
    Was the threat imminent? Did he know if there were other assailants? If it sounded like more than one, was the killing if the boy in line with the above? How do you determine that the threat is fully neutralized when other footsteps are heard? Was the threat still imminent while he was taking extra kill shots on the girl? Would a reasonable person conclude that the boy or girl were no longer imminent threats after the first, disabling shot?

    I guess I could be open to being convinced of guilt on manslaughter charges for the guy in contrast to my previous statement. I'd have to be in that courtroom though.

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by ghengis86 View Post
    Was the threat imminent? Did he know if there were other assailants? If it sounded like more than one, was the killing if the boy in line with the above? How do you determine that the threat is fully neutralized when other footsteps are heard? Was the threat still imminent while he was taking extra kill shots on the girl? Would a reasonable person conclude that the boy or girl were no longer imminent threats after the first, disabling shot?

    I guess I could be open to being convinced of guilt on manslaughter charges for the guy in contrast to my previous statement. I'd have to be in that courtroom though.
    I would say yes.

    Do what this man did, and you will most likely end up in jail.

    Right is right, I'd be sceaming blue murder if a cop did this.

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by rpfocus View Post
    Killing two teenagers who have already been shot and aren't a threat is not self defense, it's an execution. I'm sure there will be people on the jury to get him off, unfortunately. I predict a hung jury due to some dope that wont convict him.
    I would potentially agree with you but one of the teens had, according to the article, repeatedly and increasingly terrorized an old man. The fight or flight instinct will kick in. When one has lived through repeated victimization they will react differently. The fact he thought the girl laughed at him shows what was likely in his mind. The behavior of when he had neighbors call police and dragging them off the carpet, it sounds like dissociation. I would figure if he were really this cold blooded by 65 years old there should be a trail for even the most inept journalist to be able to clearly show the home owner was a threat to society and not focus on just this one situation.
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle

  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by aGameOfThrones View Post
    so much for "your house is your castle" going by some posters in this thread. replace him with an old lady doing multiple shots, pregnant woman doing multi shots, teen doing multi shots. Yeah, his behavior was of a man who was terrorized multiple times and going by what he did after the initial shots... he snapped.
    If he had snapped *after* the initial shots, I would have a lot more sympathy for him. But his actions show that everything he did was preplanned, especially having tarps in place to protect his carpet.
    Last edited by KCIndy; 04-24-2014 at 01:48 PM. Reason: [/QUOTE]



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  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by KCIndy View Post
    If he had snapped *after* the initial shots, I would have a lot more sympathy for him. But his actions show that everything he did was preplanned, especially having tarps in place to protect his carpet.
    Yes, this.

    Clearly he had "snapped", had he been thinking clearly, he would never have spoken to the cops, never given such an incriminating statement and certainly never recorded the whole damn thing.
    Last edited by Anti Federalist; 04-23-2014 at 03:38 PM.

  33. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by rpfocus View Post
    Killing two teenagers who have already been shot and aren't a threat is not self defense, it's an execution. I'm sure there will be people on the jury to get him off, unfortunately. I predict a hung jury due to some dope that wont convict him.
    Who's to say they're not a threat? You don't think a couple of crooks would seek future revenge against the person who shot them? They remain a threat as long as they remain alive.

    Let's look at this situation another way: What is the benefit in having the law protect home invaders from their victims' retribution?

  34. #59
    First degree from the facts I see. He acted completely rationally, logically in his set up and execution. No sign of irrational fear. If you fear you are getting ganged up on you sure as hell don't take time to drag a body onto a tarp and finish them off. Not calling the police because it would mess up their thanksgiving....
    However this is based only on the evidence I have seen.
    War; everything in the world wrong, evil and immoral combined into one and multiplied by millions.

  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by klamath View Post
    First degree from the facts I see. He acted completely rationally, logically in his set up and execution. No sign of irrational fear. If you fear you are getting ganged up on you sure as hell don't take time to drag a body onto a tarp and finish them off. Not calling the police because it would mess up their thanksgiving....
    However this is based only on the evidence I have seen.
    If my home gets broken in to, once or twice, and I load a pistol and sleep with it...is that logically and rationally premeditated?

    edit: One might say that is premeditated self defense.
    Last edited by ClydeCoulter; 04-23-2014 at 04:05 PM.
    "When a portion of wealth is transferred from the person who owns it—without his consent and without compensation, and whether by force or by fraud—to anyone who does not own it, then I say that property is violated; that an act of plunder is committed." - Bastiat : The Law

    "nothing evil grows in alcohol" ~ @presence

    "I mean can you imagine what it would be like if firemen acted like police officers? They would only go into a burning house only if there's a 100% chance they won't get any burns. I mean, you've got to fully protect thy self first." ~ juleswin

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