Universalism

[Brett85]

To me, sin (non-love) is more like a sickness that needs to be healed. Who is the Great Physician? God.
Have you ever done something wrong and felt shame and regret and remorse? And you learned something very deep and profound about love?
I'm pretty sure we are all going to have our own share of growing and learning.
Perhaps those who ventured the further into the darkness in this life.. may end up being those who end up learning the most about humility.
The further we've slipped into the darkness, the more intense it will be when staring into the eyes of pure love. I shudder to think about that, but again... Love overcomes all. (Every knee will bow. Not out of force, by from the weight of his love.) That's something to think about, at least.

Do you really think it would be fair for someone like Adolf Hitler to be allowed to enter heaven, even after being punished for his sins? It seems to me like those who believe in the eternal torment doctrine don't understand God's love and mercy, but those who believe in universalism don't understand God's justice and wrath. The Bible always describes God's character as being a perfect balance of mercy and justice. Neither the eternal torment doctrine nor universalism lines up with the character of God that's revealed in the Bible.

[VIDEODROME]

That's interesting, because it seems like many contemplatives or even monks pull back from the world specifically for spiritual reasons.

Anyway, you do describe a potentially unpleasant condition which is a full embrace of Attachment and Desire that Buddhism warns against. Is that 'Hell' though? That is not the eternal burning Hell, but something else. Or are you saying such people face a special torment like Jacob Marley's ghost having their earthly attachments form into chains?

[TER]

That's interesting, because it seems like many contemplatives or even monks pull back from the world specifically for spiritual reasons.

But the great difference is that the Christian monk does not live for himself at all. In fact, his entire life is one of self-abasement, obedience to God and his brothers and spiritual father, and continuous prayer for the entire world and all people. We must not compare the person who lives solely for himself and his own benefits with that of a monk whose life is actually the complete opposite.

[VIDEODROME]

Do you really think it would be fair for someone like Adolf Hitler to be allowed to enter heaven, even after being punished for his sins? It seems to me like those who believe in the eternal torment doctrine don't understand God's love and mercy, but those who believe in universalism don't understand God's justice and wrath. The Bible always describes God's character as being a perfect balance of mercy and justice. Neither the eternal torment doctrine nor universalism lines up with the character of God that's revealed in the Bible.

I would be fine with the "Afterlife Essence" or Soul of Hitler being banished or exiled. I don't think torturing Hitler or annihilating him accomplishes anything. If people are looking for Hell as a deterrent, it certainly didn't slow down Hitler either.

It seems weird to me that some ultimate being like God would feel the need to be so personally involved in such human affairs and designing punishments for each individual soul.

[TER]

Anyway, you do describe a potentially unpleasant condition which is a full embrace of Attachment and Desire that Buddhism warns against. Is that 'Hell' though? That is not the eternal burning Hell, but something else. Or are you saying such people face a special torment like Jacob Marley's ghost having their earthly attachments form into chains?

Videodrome, is this question addressed to me?

[Brett85]

I would be fine with the "Afterlife Essence" or Soul of Hitler being banished or exiled. I don't think torturing Hitler or annihilating him accomplishes anything. If people are looking for Hell as a deterrent, it certainly didn't slow down Hitler either.

It seems to me like annihilating Hitler would serve the purpose of justice. That actually seems like a pretty light penalty for someone like him, considering what he did. But I believe that God is a God of love, mercy, and perfect justice, not vengeance.

[Nang]

But the great difference is that the monk does not live for himself at all. In fact, his entire life is one of self-abasement, obedience to God and his brothers and spiritual father, and continuous prayer for the entire world and all people. We must not compare the person who lives solely for himself and his own benefits with that of a monk whose life is actually the complete opposite.

Only God knows the hearts of all men . . . including monks.

Many monks think they can earn heaven by self-deprivation. NOT.

Such a one is really living only for his own self-gain, with the entrapments of works of denial, destitution, and usually fake exhibitions of holiness.

Salvation and true holiness is only achieved by faith granted by God in the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ. Which does not require the environmental isolation from humanity in a dark cave, to enjoy.

[TER]

Only God knows the hearts of all men . . . including monks.

Many monks think they can earn heaven by self-deprivation. NOT.

Such a one is really living only for his own self-gain, only with the entrapments of denial, destitution, and usually fake exhibitions of holiness.

Salvation and true holiness is only achieved by faith granted by God in the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ. Which does not require the environment isolation from humanity in a dark cave, to enjoy.

Some of the greatest prophets of the Old Testament, including St. John the Baptist who Christ called the greatest to have ever been born of a women were ascetic monks who lived in dark caves. What is a more fake exhibition are the armchair theologians who think they have all the answers though deny the very saints which suffered in the 2000 years before them and gave their lives handing down the teachings of the Apostles.

[VIDEODROME]

But the great difference is that the Christian monk does not live for himself at all. In fact, his entire life is one of self-abasement, obedience to God and his brothers and spiritual father, and continuous prayer for the entire world and all people. We must not compare the person who lives solely for himself and his own benefits with that of a monk whose life is actually the complete opposite.

I just mentioned that because it seemed like you thought Community Participation with Neighbors was essential. That secluding ones self, either with great wealth or the absence of wealth, but somehow a kind of human failure.

I do think living for pleasure only has the great potential for ending in misery, but not always. Consider many rock stars who manage to keep on rockin' and living it up. Even if their life style kills them, they might have no regret. Same could be said for many artists and writers.

[TER]

I just mentioned that because it seemed like you thought Community Participation with Neighbors was essential. That secluding ones self, either with great wealth or the absence of wealth, but somehow a kind of human failure.

I do think living for pleasure only has the great potential for ending in misery, but not always. Consider many rock stars who manage to keep on rockin' and living it up. Even if their life style kills them, they might have no regret. Same could be said for many artists and writers.

I did not mean to suggest that living by oneself cannot be a fulfilling and worthy life, for we are truly never alone (in that God is everywhere present). As I mentioned above, ascetic hermits and saints sometimes go for decades in complete solitude. However, such a calling is one made out of love and devotion towards God and if such a life is not tied in with continuous and sincere prayer for the world and the people in it, including acts of love and charity and mercy when and if the occasion arises, that is, if it such a secluded life is done for solely selfish reasons, then it is a wasteful life which and can easily lead to prelest, pride, and spiritual destruction.

[VIDEODROME]

I agree there is a risk of self destruction living in this life, but I don't see why such a person needs a second punishment for the afterlife.

[Nang]

Some of the greatest prophets of the Old Testament, including St. John the Baptist who Christ called the greatest to have ever been born of a women were ascetic monks who lived in dark caves. What is a more fake exhibition are the armchair theologians who think they have all the answers though deny the very saints which suffered in the 2000 years before them and gave their lives handing down the teachings of the Apostles.

I have never rejected John the Baptist and his prophetic testimony of the Savior, Jesus Christ.

I have never rejected the Apostles and their first-hand testimony of Jesus Christ.

So what saints do you think I reject?

[TER]

I agree there is a risk of self destruction living in this life, but I don't see why such a person needs a second punishment for the afterlife.

It is the punishment they have chosen. God's judgement will be just because those who will finally see themselves as they truly are before the Light of Truth, and realize how far they fell away from God and tarnished the image of Him within themselves, their very own conscious of guilt and hopelessness will be their hell. The undying worm will be our own self-accusations before the truths of our lives and how we have lived. God will open the book of our life, and we will see how greatly we disobeyed Him and how much we hurt those we mistreated and judged and did evil against. Our very own conscious will consume us for eternity before these truths. Our punishment will be the hell we have created knowing the unjust evil and abuses we caused on others.

[VIDEODROME]

I don't even know what an Undying Worm is.

Anyway, this time you mention not only living for pleasure, but hurting others. Deliberate harm to other people is another matter. I still don't think that deserves something as over the time as a spinning around in a demonic rotisserie, but at the very least an evaluation of the person. if they still mistreat others they should be booted out the door until they clean up their act.

[PursuePeace]

Do you really think it would be fair for someone like Adolf Hitler to be allowed to enter heaven, even after being punished for his sins? It seems to me like those who believe in the eternal torment doctrine don't understand God's love and mercy, but those who believe in universalism don't understand God's justice and wrath. The Bible always describes God's character as being a perfect balance of mercy and justice. Neither the eternal torment doctrine nor universalism lines up with the character of God that's revealed in the Bible.

I totally understand your question. But I think..Can God NOT handle someone like Hitler? What I mean is are Hitler's sins more powerful than God's love..? I believe all wrongs will be made right. I truly believe that. What will that look like in the case of Hitler? I don't know. But I trust that in the end, God has each and everyone of us in the palm of His hand. Even those of us who traveled the furthest in the darkness.

I ponder the following often:

18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that[h] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

I just feel that we are walking this life and experiencing the destructiveness of non-love and the POWER of Love. We're all walking this life together. We are intimately affected by each other's actions. No-one is ALL good or ALL Bad. I see a human being not as a "hitler" or a "mother theresa" or someone in between, but as an individual person and who knows what may be going on in their mind and in their heart. But God does know. and God is the one that will do the healing and the refining. Too much black and white "do bad, get a smack on the knuckles" "do good, get a treat". I don't see it that way. We are far too complex.

Boils down to this: God's justice is rooted in who God is: LOVE. His corrections are to bring about a change in heart. Not to just wantonly punish like our American justice system. God's justice system is about redemption, reconcilation. Not throwing people away.

Mankind loves wrath, and revels in "an eye for an eye"... But look at what Jesus said while he was dying on the cross:
"Father forgive them, they know NOT what they do." He saw more than we do.

Originally Posted by PursuePeace

What if it is your loved ones that are being annihilated?

That would be really tough, but in my opinion it wouldn't be nearly as bad as knowing that they're being tormented for all eternity. I just don't see how anyone could ever be happy in heaven if their loved ones were actually being tortured in some other place for all eternity.

I appreciate your answer. I don't see how anyone could be happy either. I agree with you on that.

Just wanted to say thanks again for the conversation.
It's hard for me to condense my words. So sorry if I ramble.

[eduardo89]

Just to make sure the OP is properly attributed. It is from http://www.letusreason.org/Curren31.htm

[Kevin007]

dammit. disregard that post because it was copy and pasted.

[Nang]

The OP was copied and pasted without attribution from here:



In violation of their copyright:

Kevin attributed this post with no violation at all. It is stated by Let Us Reason Ministries first that "articles can be reproduced in portion for one's personal use."

So what is your real gripe?

[Natural Citizen]

Heh. Eduardo....

[Kevin007]

ok, ill come clean..many are copy and pastes. However I work 65 hours a week. I don't have hundreds of hours a week to go and copy and paste one sentence from hundreds of pro catholic websites so one can accuse me of copy pasting. Have I gone overboard? Yes! Does that mean that those posts were less true? Only in the mind of the RCC faithful.

[Nang]

ok, ill come clean..many are copy and pastes. However I work 65 hours a week. I don't have hundreds of hours a week to go and copy and paste one sentence from hundreds of pro catholic websites so one can accuse me of copy pasting. Have I gone overboard? Yes! Does that mean that those posts were less true? Only in the mind of the RCC faithful.

Hang tough Kevin.

You have done nothing wrong, other than maybe you missed an attribution here or there.

But TER constantly trolls this forum (using huge amounts of bandwidth) with his idolatrous cuts and pastes, and is never criticized, but rather is acclaimed and adored for his contributions that only consist of dead mens' words instead of his own.

[Kevin007]

Nang, either way I can only answer for my own shortcomings sister. Thank You. I'm not here to make enemies. I'm not doing myself any favors

We all make mistakes. I'm asking for mercy.

[Nang]

Nang, either way I can only answer for my own shortcomings sister. Thank You. I'm not here to make enemies. I'm not doing myself any favors

We all make mistakes. I'm asking for mercy.

I love you for your honest and humility, brother. You reflect the virtues of Christ in your repentance . . . which is His gift to you.

[Kevin007]

I love you for your honest and humility, brother. You reflect the virtues of Christ in your repentance . . . which is His gift to you.

thank you. I am sincere. I would hope that others here could show the forgiveness of the one they follow

I feel small and I should; was just hoping others would not pile on