Yahoo comments on Bundy Ranch are depressing.

[klamath]

More information ammo:

http://beforeitsnews.com/food-and-fa...r-2463050.html

A Rancher TELLS ALL:

B Hunt wrote:

I live in SW Utah. I grew up on a ranch less than 100 miles from the Bundy’s ranch. My father knows Cliven Bundy. I know Cliven’s son Ryan. This is not a hoax, it is an action of force by the BLM.

The BLM was going to sell the cattle at one of the smallest cattle markets in Utah. No cattle markets in Nevada would take the cattle without a properly signed brand inspection (which the BLM cannot obtain without Cliven Bundy’s signature). The BLM paid the owner of the Utah cattle market $300,000 to do the sale (‘R’ Livestock Connection in Monroe, Utah, owned by one Scott G. Robbins, according to the Utah Business Entity Search). Utah Governor Herbert stepped in and forbid them from bringing the cattle into Utah without the legally required health and brand inspections (which again, require Bundy’s signature) and that no feral cattle are allowed to be imported at all (per Utah statute). Because Bundy claims ownership over maybe 350-500 head of branded cattle, the other 500-700 estimated head of cattle would all be considered feral. BLM officially backed off, but we suspect they are still secretly shipping them through Utah without any permission to do so, to “private” buyers in Colorado. The contract cowboys that the BLM hired to do the roundup are from Sampson Livestock in Meadow, Utah (traitors one and all).

From what I understand, Cliven Bundy owns both the Water Rights and Grazing Rights to all of the land where his cattle run. If Bundy failed to use them, the Grazing Rights would revert to the BLM and would be retired, while the Water Rights would revert to the State of Nevada, likely to be sold to the highest bidder (which would probably be a bidding war between mineral companies that are behind this action with the BLM and the City of Las Vegas which is thirsty for water and has had multiple attempts to buy water–through eminent domain from Utah farmers and ranchers–from Utah, which were all blocked by the Utah Legislature and Utah Governor Herbert). Chances are, the BLM has already filed a claim on the water rights so that they can sell to the highest bidder (instead of the state) and are trying to get the cattle off to show that Bundy cannot use the water beneficially (much like what the US Forest Service and BLM both tried to do to Wayne Hage).

Now, for Cliven Bundy, he’s not fighting this for his cattle or his own livelihood. He recognizes that he will probably die before this fight is over. He has said multiple times that he is fighting this to wake people up about the tyranny of the Federal Government and also to help wake up the western states about getting the rights to their own land back from the federal government, which has repeatedly shut down ranchers and closed off land. (MO = 1st, get all the ranchers, farmers, Native Americans, and foresters that use the land for positive, sustainable production off of the land; 2nd, grab up all the resources; 3rd, close off the lands to public access including camping, hiking, horseback riding, hunting, fishing, boating, shooting, etc; 4th, sell off the resources to the highest bidder regardless of what that will do to the land, the local environment, or the economy; 5th, collect royalties on the resources in perpetuity; 6th, reduce and eliminate all SLS and PILT payments to the states, impoverishing them beyond belief.)

Anyway, thanks for posting about this. It is important for us to be able to raise the appropriate resistance.

PILT = Payment in Lieu of Taxes

Thomas Massie mentioned this in a post on his FB page. It's paid to states, by the federal government, on land in a state that the state cannot collect property tax on because of federal government holding. (maybe someone could word that better)

The bolded is the reason the ranchers will probably lose. They know not who their enemies are and turn against their allies. Logger laughed and ridiculed the miners when the fed came for the miners, when it was the loggers turn there were no miners left to stand with them. Pit the basic industries against each other while the urban environments and statists win. Sorry to see this is still going on.

[Snew]

Yahoo comments in general are pretty depressing.

[jonhowe]

comments on government media sites like Yahoo are also going to be from the government, and the kinds of people who actually get news from those sites are completely indoctrinated/brainwashed

That's the vast majority of people.

[Madison320]

One thing about this that bugs me is the idea that not paying govt taxes is the equivalent of theft. If a mugger asks you for all your money, and you only give him what's in your wallet, not what's in your back pocket, did you steal from the mugger? Are we really that brain dead that we no longer know the difference?

[klamath]

One thing about this that bugs me is the idea that not paying govt taxes is the equivalent of theft. If a mugger asks you for all your money, and you only give him what's in your wallet, not what's in your back pocket, did you steal from the mugger? Are we really that brain dead that we no longer know the difference?

The fight against human nature. "if I have to pay, you should have to pay" Never,"let us both fight having to pay."

[otherone]

The fight against human nature. "if I have to pay, you should have to pay" Never,"let us both fight having to pay."

even here:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...-of-a-Head-Tax

[steph3n]

Please tell me where you read this. From what I heard him say, he paid the county for years for grazing, then after the federal government took over the land, when he tried to pay the county, they would no longer accept it. Also from what he said, if he had offered the money to the federal government (BLM), then he would have put himself under their purvue just from that act alone.

Everything I have found is that he paid the BLM up until 1993 and stopped then when they reduced his allocation to only 150 head of cattle, he then went to the county, then the courts and lost every time.

He himself says it and that's where he loses me, either you don't pay them and fight from the start based on the fact that they are on county land, or you continue to pay them, pay them extra for the added head over the allocation and fight it in the courts.

"I have no contract with the United States government," Bundy said. "I was paying grazing fees for management and that's what BLM was supposed to be, land managers and they were managing my ranch out of business, so I refused to pay."

his daughter and his own words confirm, he was paying the BLM before 1993 until they did the head allocation reduction.

[klamath]

Everything I have found is that he paid the BLM up until 1993 and stopped then when they reduced his allocation to only 150 head of cattle, he then went to the county, then the courts and lost every time.

He himself says it and that's where he loses me, either you don't pay them and fight from the start based on the fact that they are on county land, or you continue to pay them, pay them extra for the added head over the allocation and fight it in the courts.



his daughter and his own words confirm, he was paying the BLM before 1993 until they did the head allocation reduction.

It doesn't matter. If he would have paid, they would have gone after the extra cattle relying more heavily on the damage to the tortoise as the reason. If he would have complied with the cattle reduction he would have gone broke. They want him GONE. They drove the other 98% of the ranchers out. They spent as much rounding up the cattle as he owned. Do you think they care about the money?

[steph3n]

It doesn't matter. If he would have paid, they would have gone after the extra cattle relying more heavily on the damage to the tortoise as the reason. If he would have complied with the cattle reduction he would have gone broke. They want him GONE. They drove the other 98% of the ranchers out. They spent as much rounding up the cattle as he owned. Do you think they care about the money?

To the BLM it isn't about the money, to the other people it is about the money.

Trying to convince them that they should support Bundy and not the govt i this case is an exercise in frustration, because he 'owes so much' and has been grazing without paying, and lost in court so many times, etc. They repeatedly make the point that he has not even a moral high ground in the case because of the actions taken, and all the losses in court. I am saying that it would be immensely easier to convince people that the BLM is just trying to kill out ranching if he had continued to pay for all the head grazing, he would then have a moral high ground apparent to all, and have the mass of the country behind him minus some environmental fringe nuts.

[libertygrl]

I've got to stop reading the comments on Yahoo and other popular sites. They're running about 95% against Bundy. It's sad.

Please also keep in mind that there are paid internet shills whose job is to prevent something like the Bundy story from ever gaining positive momentum. Can't have that happening here in Amerika.

[LibertyEagle]

I think a large part of the confusion is that the Bundy's (and others in the know) don't realize that most Americans don't know what they know or understand what they understand. It needs to be laid out in a very simple manner, but without any assumption that the reader (or listener) knows about "common" terms and conditions.

That's good stuff you posted. I remember Bundy talking about preemptive rights. Did he say he bought the rights to use that land? He probably did, but I don't recall.

It's a bit different, but when I was a kid, my father bought the rights to use what was termed, "school land". He owned a bunch of property around it too. But, on the school land, there were a bunch of improvements. A house, a rustic cabin, a large pond complete with its own dam, a large stone cattle barn, horse barn, etc. Years later they decided it was time to sell it, because something changed and they were concerned that the government would just take it and of course, the improvements with it. So, they did. I should say that they didn't build any of the improvements; they were there when they bought it.

[Deborah K]

I think this is a big part of the problem. I don't like the idea of having "rights" to public land. It would be much better just to have the land privately owned. Not that I'm saying Bundy is at fault. My guess is that buying the land was never an option. I don't see any reason why the state or feds should own the majority of the land out west. I'd rather see them auction off all that land and pay down the debt.

And they'd STILL be the winners because they'd get property taxes off of it forever.

[LibertyEagle]

Google rewilding North America and follow the links.

Here's one: http://www.wildlandsnetwork.org/

[Madison320]

And they'd STILL be the winners because they'd get property taxes off of it forever.

That's true, although out of all taxes I think property taxes are the worst since it means you don't really own it, you are just renting it. But it's still a much better way than having "rights" to public land. There's so many ways that can turn into a cluster $#@!.

[Madison320]

Everything I have found is that he paid the BLM up until 1993 and stopped then when they reduced his allocation to only 150 head of cattle, he then went to the county, then the courts and lost every time.

He himself says it and that's where he loses me, either you don't pay them and fight from the start based on the fact that they are on county land, or you continue to pay them, pay them extra for the added head over the allocation and fight it in the courts.

his daughter and his own words confirm, he was paying the BLM before 1993 until they did the head allocation reduction.

Maybe he couldn't afford those fees? Apparently none of the other ranchers could afford it.

I was trying to think of an analogy that people could relate to, since most of us aren't ranchers. Suppose the feds found an endangered species in your subdivision and put up a toll on the only entrance for $20. What would you do? Do you pay it until your day in court? Sell your home at a huge loss since no one wants to buy it with that toll there? I keep hearing the argument that it's not HIS land, but it's not that simple. You can have your property stolen/ ruined in other ways.

[Deborah K]

That's true, although out of all taxes I think property taxes are the worst since it means you don't really own it, you are just renting it. But it's still a much better way than having "rights" to public land. There's so many ways that can turn into a cluster $#@!.

Anything the fedgov gets involved in turns out to be a cluster $#@!.

[GunnyFreedom]

they are all a bunch of yahoos over there anyway.

[ClydeCoulter]

That's good stuff you posted. I remember Bundy talking about preemptive rights. Did he say he bought the rights to use that land? He probably did, but I don't recall.

It's a bit different, but when I was a kid, my father bought the rights to use what was termed, "school land". He owned a bunch of property around it too. But, on the school land, there were a bunch of improvements. A house, a rustic cabin, a large pond complete with its own dam, a large stone cattle barn, horse barn, etc. Years later they decided it was time to sell it, because something changed and they were concerned that the government would just take it and of course, the improvements with it. So, they did. I should say that they didn't build any of the improvements; they were there when they bought it.

Yes, those rights were purchased long before the BLM or EPA existed.

My great grandpa bought the rights to the Bunkerville allotment back in 1887, around there. Then he sold them to my grandpa who then turned them over to my dad in 1972. These men bought and paid for their rights to the range and also built waters, fences and roads to assure the survival of their cattle, all with their own money, not with tax dollars. These rights to the land use are called preemptive rights.

Google rewilding North America and follow the links.

Here's one: http://www.wildlandsnetwork.org/

Yep, A.g.e.n.d.a

[klamath]

Maybe he couldn't afford those fees? Apparently none of the other ranchers could afford it.

I was trying to think of an analogy that people could relate to, since most of us aren't ranchers. Suppose the feds found an endangered species in your subdivision and put up a toll on the only entrance for $20. What would you do? Do you pay it until your day in court? Sell your home at a huge loss since no one wants to buy it with that toll there? I keep hearing the argument that it's not HIS land, but it's not that simple. You can have your property stolen/ ruined in other ways.

Here is something to throw at them. When people hear court they think criminal court. Guilty until proven innocent, Right? The burden of proof is on the prosecution, right? Well all of these court cases involve Administrative law courts. All the government has to do is have associates degree, environmental BLM employee state that Bundy is killing turtles and the burden of proof shifts to Bundy to prove he isn't killing turtles. It is called a prima facie case. It is extremely hard to overcome a governments prima facie case as My family and friends found out the hard way.

[PRB]

What are you doing on yahoo anyways? The mail sucks, the stories suck, everything sucks about it

because i don't want to perpetuate Google's monopoly on search and news and mail

[limequat]

According to the wiki on this, Bundy has not been able to come up with any evidence of his rights. I keep reading about pre-emptive rights, grazing rights, and water rights. Seems like it was all ad-hoc. The government changes the rules and there's no paper trail.

Also, I can't quite wrap my head around the end-game. This has been going on for some time, so there is precedence. I don't buy the Reid/Solar Energy thing. That deal fell through. Obviously it's not really about the turtles. Why does the BLM REALLY want this land?

[klamath]

According to the wiki on this, Bundy has not been able to come up with any evidence of his rights. I keep reading about pre-emptive rights, grazing rights, and water rights. Seems like it was all ad-hoc. The government changes the rules and there's no paper trail.

Also, I can't quite wrap my head around the end-game. This has been going on for some time, so there is precedence. I don't buy the Reid/Solar Energy thing. That deal fell through. Obviously it's not really about the turtles. Why does the BLM REALLY want this land?

It is environmentalism. They want development of any rural land stopped. Take the time to read the agendas and goals of the environmentalist organizations. They for the most part ARE in control of the federal administrative agencies. They set out to become the administrators that control policy in the 70's and have largely done so. They elect democratic politicians and hold the politicians feet to the fire.

[CPUd]

According to the wiki on this, Bundy has not been able to come up with any evidence of his rights. I keep reading about pre-emptive rights, grazing rights, and water rights. Seems like it was all ad-hoc. The government changes the rules and there's no paper trail.

Also, I can't quite wrap my head around the end-game. This has been going on for some time, so there is precedence. I don't buy the Reid/Solar Energy thing. That deal fell through. Obviously it's not really about the turtles. Why does the BLM REALLY want this land?

I never got what he was saying about pre-emptive rights either, because the issue is not over land ownership. He referenced 1877 a few times, which was the year of the Desert Land Act. Using that, along with other homestead acts, they could have claimed a couple thousand acres back then. That's why they also grow melons. There was a Preemption Act, but that basically said if you are physically set up on some land that is about to become federal land, you have a right to buy it.

Maybe 'grandfather' is what he means.

[klamath]

I never got what he was saying about pre-emptive rights either, because the issue is not over land ownership. He referenced 1877 a few times, which was the year of the Desert Land Act. Using that, along with other homestead acts, they could have claimed a couple thousand acres back then. That's why they also grow melons. There was a Preemption Act, but that basically said if you are physically set up on some land that is about to become federal land, you have a right to buy it.

Maybe 'grandfather' is what he means.

Do you have the right to walk in the national forest? Do you believe that government has the right to restrict all visitation and viewing of federal lands except for a the agents of the US government?

[CPUd]

Do you have the right to walk in the national forest? Do you believe that government has the right to restrict all visitation and viewing of federal lands except for a the agents of the US government?

Walking in the national forest, yeah. Camping too, for people who know how to do it without leaving trash everywhere. I don't think people should be able to go in there and start chopping down trees though.

[pcosmar]

Walking in the national forest, yeah. Camping too, for people who know how to do it without leaving trash everywhere. I don't think people should be able to go in there and start chopping down trees though.

Why?

Why not?

Oh,, and people do cut trees in the national forest.. If they have the right connections and have paid the bribes.

I can get a permit to collect dead wood.

[klamath]

Walking in the national forest, yeah. Camping too, for people who know how to do it without leaving trash everywhere. I don't think people should be able to go in there and start chopping down trees though.

You didn't answer the question. Does the government have the right to shut it down, remove all land from public use?

[pcosmar]

According to the wiki on this,

Not a particularly good source.

According to wiki Tim McVeigh was part of the Patriot Movement.. when in fact he was run off by every group he tried to infiltrate.

[Ender]

According to the wiki on this, Bundy has not been able to come up with any evidence of his rights. I keep reading about pre-emptive rights, grazing rights, and water rights. Seems like it was all ad-hoc. The government changes the rules and there's no paper trail.

Here's an interesting article about how the history of western US gov land grabs.

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/...ar-mexico.html

Also, it is my understanding is that Bundy actually does have evidence, which is why he hasn't been allowed to take this to court. The Bundy land was originally part of the Arizona territory, and was annexed into Nevada, illegally- throwing out all the original laws that governed the Arizona frontier.

[PRB]

Not a particularly good source.

According to wiki Tim McVeigh was part of the Patriot Movement.. when in fact he was run off by every group he tried to infiltrate.

which ones?

and what constitutes a patriot movement group that he can't claim he is one himself?