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Thread: Study: You Can't Change an Anti-Vaxxer's Mind

  1. #1

    Study: You Can't Change an Anti-Vaxxer's Mind

    I came across this article while looking for something else but given the discussions we have had on vaccines, found it interesting.

    A new study examined multiple strategies for communicating about the safety and importance of vaccines. None of them worked.

    —By Chris Mooney | Mon Mar. 3, 2014 11:50 AM PST

    Vaccine denial is dangerous. We know this for many reasons, but just consider one of them: In California in 2010, 10 children died in a whooping cough outbreak that was later linked, in part, to the presence of 39 separate clusters of unvaccinated children in the state. It's that simple: When too many children go unvaccinated, vaccine-preventable diseases spread more easily, and sometimes children die. Nonetheless, as scientifically unfounded fears about childhood vaccines causing autism have proliferated over the past decade or more, a minority of parents are turning to "personal belief exemptions," so-called "alternative vaccine schedules," and other ways to dodge or delay vaccinating their kids.

    So as a rational person, you might think it would be of the utmost importance to try to talk some sense into these people. But there's a problem: According to a major new study in the journal Pediatrics, trying to do so may actually make the problem worse. The paper tested the effectiveness of four separate pro-vaccine messages, three of which were based very closely on how the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) itself talks about vaccines. The results can only be called grim: Not a single one of the messages was successful when it came to increasing parents' professed intent to vaccinate their children. And in several cases the messages actually backfired, either increasing the ill-founded belief that vaccines cause autism or even, in one case, apparently reducing parents' intent to vaccinate.

    The study, by political scientist Brendan Nyhan of Dartmouth College* and three colleagues, adds to a large body of frustrating research on how hard it is to correct false information and get people to accept indisputable facts. Nyhan and one of his coauthors, Jason Reifler of the University of Exeter in the United Kingdom, are actually the coauthors of a much discussed previous study showing that when politically conservative test subjects read a fake newspaper article containing a quotation of George W. Bush asserting that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, followed by a factual correction stating that this was not actually true, they believed Bush's falsehood more strongly afterwards—an outcome that Nyhan and Reifler dubbed a "backfire effect."

    Unfortunately, the vaccine issue is prime terrain for such biased and motivated reasoning; recent research even suggests that a conspiratorial, paranoid mindset prevails among some vaccine rejectionists. To try to figure out how to persuade them, in the new study researchers surveyed a representative sample of 1,759 Americans with at least one child living in their home. A first phase of the study determined their beliefs about vaccines; then, in a follow-up, respondents were asked to consider one of four messages (or a control message) about vaccine effectiveness and the importance of kids getting the MMR (measles, mumps, rubella) vaccine.

    The first message, dubbed "Autism correction," was a factual, science-heavy correction of false claims that the MMR vaccine causes autism, assuring parents that the vaccine is "safe and effective" and citing multiple studies that disprove claims of an autism link. The second message, dubbed "Disease risks," simply listed the many risks of contracting the measles, the mumps, or rubella, describing the nasty complications that can come with these diseases. The third message, dubbed "Disease narrative," told a "true story" about a 10-month-old whose temperature shot up to a terrifying 106 degrees after he contracted measles from another child in a pediatrician's waiting room.

    All three of these messages are closely based on messages (here, here, and here) that appear on the CDC website. And then there was a final message that was not directly based on CDC communications, dubbed "Disease images." In this case, as a way of emphasizing the importance of vaccines, test subjects were asked to examine three fairly disturbing images of children afflicted with measles, mumps, and rubella. One of those images used is at right.

    The results showed that by far, the least successful messages were "Disease narrative" and "Disease images." Hearing the frightening narrative actually increased respondents' likelihood of thinking that getting the MMR vaccine will cause serious side effects, from 7.7 percent to 13.8 percent. Similarly, looking at the disturbing images increased test subjects' belief that vaccines cause autism. In other words, both of these messages backfired.

    Why did that happen? Dartmouth's Nyhan isn't sure, but he comments that "if people read about or see sick children, it may be easier to imagine other kinds of health risks to children, including possibly side effects of vaccines that are actually quite rare." (When it comes to side effects, Nyhan is referring not to autism but to the small minority of cases in which vaccines cause adverse reactions.)

    The two more straightforward text-only messages, "Austism correction" and "Disease risks," had more mixed effects. "Disease risks" didn't cause any harm, but it didn't really produce any benefits either.

    As for "Autism correction," it actually worked, among survey respondents as a whole, to somewhat reduce belief in the falsehood that vaccines cause autism. But at the same time, the message had an unexpected negative effect, decreasing the percentage of parents saying that they would be likely to vaccinate their children.

    Looking more closely, the researchers found that this occurred because of a strong backfire effect among the minority of test subjects who were the most distrustful of vaccines. In this group, the likelihood of saying they would give their kids the MMR vaccine decreased to 45 percent (versus 70 percent in the control group) after they received factual, scientific information debunking the vaccines-autism link. Indeed, the study therefore concluded that "no intervention increased intent to vaccinate among parents who are the least favorable toward vaccines."

    Nyhan carefully emphasizes that the study cannot say anything about the effectiveness of other possible messages beyond the ones that were tested. So there may be winners out there that simply weren't in the experiment—although as Nyhan added, "I don't have a good candidate." In any event, given results like these, any new messages ought to be tested as well.

    "I don't think our results imply that they shouldn't communicate why vaccines are a good idea," adds Nyhan. "But they do suggest that we should be more careful to test the messages that we use, and to question the intuition that countering misinformation is likely to be the most effective strategy."

    Finally, Nyhan adds that in order to protect public health by encouraging widespread vaccinations, public communication efforts aren't the only tools at our disposal. "Other policy measures might be more effective," he notes. For instance, recently we reported on how easy it is for parents to dodge getting their kids vaccinated in some states; in some cases, it requires little more than a onetime signature on a form. Tightening these policies might be considerably more helpful than trying to win hearts and minds. That wasn't really working out anyway, and thanks to the new study, we now know that vaccine deniers' imperviousness to facts may be a key part of the reason why.
    There are some links in the original article not included. You can find them here: http://www.motherjones.com/environme...ackfire-effect

    Link to the actual study: http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...peds.2013-2365

    From the synopsis:
    RESULTS:

    None of the interventions increased parental intent to vaccinate a future child. Refuting claims of an MMR/autism link successfully reduced misperceptions that vaccines cause autism but nonetheless decreased intent to vaccinate among parents who had the least favorable vaccine attitudes. In addition, images of sick children increased expressed belief in a vaccine/autism link and a dramatic narrative about an infant in danger increased self-reported belief in serious vaccine side effects.

    CONCLUSIONS:

    Current public health communications about vaccines may not be effective. For some parents, they may actually increase misperceptions or reduce vaccination intention. Attempts to increase concerns about communicable diseases or correct false claims about vaccines may be especially likely to be counterproductive. More study of pro-vaccine messaging is needed.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 04-13-2014 at 07:19 PM.



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  3. #2
    Think of all those lurkers that have become anti-vaxxers or at least vaccine questioners due to the virulent attempts of the pro-vaccine crowd to do the opposite...

    Interesting study Zippy!
    Few men have virtue enough to withstand the highest bidder. ~GEORGE WASHINGTON, letter, Aug. 17, 1779

    Quit yer b*tching and whining and GET INVOLVED!!

  4. #3
    If vaccines were so wonderful and the vaccine makers have nothing to hide, how come they are protected from lawsuits?
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  5. #4
    Whoh! Yet another “OH GOD THE CHILDREN, ALL OF THOSE POOR, POOR CHILDREN, WE MUST SAVE THE CHILDREN” article (oh excuse me “study”). Please spare us all from the appeals of emotional desperation.

    However, that is because the counter-arguments truly are just so damned compelling. Moreover, once a person has discovered both sides of the argument it begins to dawn upon most (viz., those with still functional logical centers within their brain) that such potential short-term prevention simply does not justify the myriad of potential long-term risks involved.

    Further, the vaccine manufacturers assertions (i.e., excuses) that they need to use these noxious (although publicly claiming there are no health risks involved in their use, while quietly listing the hundreds of side-effects on their internal assessments and data-sheets) chemicals to keep costs down and permit for prolonged storage cannot ease the mind of the assertive, free-thinking parent.
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding one’s self in the ranks of the insane.” — Marcus Aurelius

    They’re not buying it. CNN, you dumb bastards!” — President Trump 2020

    Consilio et Animis de Oppresso Liber

  6. #5
    Perhaps it would help to better define the vaccination debate, for example:

    What is more likely the result of a disease that causes death, being unvaccinated or having a compromised immune system (including living an indiscriminant or negligent lifestyle)?

    It is true that many people that are unvaccinated survive diseases for which vaccinations are otherwise available, no?

    It is true that people wuo have been vaccinated are still subject—however, perhaps at a reduced risk—to experiencing the disease that they had been vaccinated against (that there really no way of providing an absolute guarantee of safety), no?

    It is true that in the days following being vaccinated, most individuals experience the onset of mild sickness lasting up to several days, no?

    It is true that depending on the type of vaccination (e.g., flu-shot series), many vaccinated people will ultimately experience the very diseases that they had previously been vaccinated against, no?

    It is true that vaccinations do pose inherent risks, no?

    It is true the vaccinations can be financially costly, no?

    It is true that from the scores of viral strains existing and morphing from one year to the next, vaccinations are only capable of protecting against the specific viral strains provided within the vaccination, no?

    It is true that one has absolutely no way of determining which viral strain they may potentially become infected with, no?

    It is true that vaccine companies only account for the most populous viral strains from one year to the next, no?

    It is true that the process involved in manufacturing mass-produced vaccinations is highly disturbing, no?

    And here is a comparison to consider (pertaining my own recent personal experience), I am close to being 40-years old (goodness that feels strange to type), just prior to last November I somehow caught the chickenpox, it was a week of hell but I managed to pull through (although now I have a few permanent pox-scars on my face to remember the experience by), while among other things I was highly concerned because about three-weeks earlier I had struggled through a nasty stomach virus (causing me to fear a degraded immune system for which to fight the battle), and then finally topping this all off, during January I was against struck, this time with a chest cold. My point being that no vaccinations were involved through any of those back-to-back illnesses (only one steroid injection and a single prescription of antibiotic medication), other than I had fought all of this off on my own, and with the help of my wife of course.
    Last edited by Weston White; 04-17-2014 at 04:37 PM.
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding one’s self in the ranks of the insane.” — Marcus Aurelius

    They’re not buying it. CNN, you dumb bastards!” — President Trump 2020

    Consilio et Animis de Oppresso Liber

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Weston White View Post
    Perhaps it would help to better define the vaccination debate, for example:

    What is more likely the result of a disease that causes death, being unvaccinated or having a compromised immune system (including living an indiscriminant or negligent lifestyle)?
    Depends on the illness, not that vaccines compromise the immune system in the first place, so the argument is non-sensical to begin with.

    You can have the strongest immune system, but it won't protect you against something like Rabies. A vaccine will.

    It is true that many people that are unvaccinated survive diseases for which vaccinations are otherwise available, no?
    Is it true that some people die from vaccine-preventable diseases? If so, and you refuse to vaccinate, are you responsible for the person's death? What is the benefit of not being vaccinated? Putting thousands of immunocompromised children at risk so you can prove a point?

    It is true that people that have been vaccinated are still subject—however, perhaps at a reduced risk—to experiencing the disease that they had been vaccinated against (that there really no way of providing an absolute guarantee of safety), no?
    No treatment is 100% effective, and vaccines are no different. The only people who insist on this straw-man are the anti-vaxxers.

    It is true that in the days following being vaccinated, most individuals experience the onset of mild sickness lasting up to several days, no?
    No, it is not true.

    It is true that depending on the type of vaccination (e.g., flu-shot series), many vaccinated people will ultimately experience the very diseases that they had previously been vaccinated against, no?
    No vaccines contain a live pathogen. Attenuated strains illicit a stronger immune response, but lack pathogenicity.

    It is true that vaccinations do pose inherent risks, no?
    All medication poses inherent risks. Even 'natural' ones.

    It is true the vaccinations can be financially costly, no?
    $20 is costly? Let's hope you live under the bridge, ride the bus to work, and have no idea what an iPhone is. Otherwise, I have zero sympathy for you.

    It is true that from the scores of viral strains existing and morphing from one year to the next, vaccinations are only capable of
    protecting against the specific viral strains provided within the vaccination, no?
    Depends on the virus. Influenza is very adept at mutating; it is in the extreme minority. Other viruses like the Chicken Pox, Smallpox, Mumps, Measles, etc. do not evolve fast enough for this to be a realistic concern. Same goes for the Rhinoviruses, Adenoviruses, Rotaviruses, and the like.

    This is an actual phenomenon that has been documented by microbiologists and immunologists for decades. As it turns out, there is selective pressure against highly intricate epitopes because they are easier for the hosts's immune system to recognize and mount an attack on. Thus, bacterial and viral antigens in widely circulating strains tend to be stable, even across many generations.

    It is true that one has absolutely no way of determining which viral strain they may potentially become infected with, no?
    It is possible you could be exposed to a novel strain, but what is the probability of this? You might be exposed to a mild form of Ebolavirus, but is that a risk you are willing to take?

    It is true that vaccine companies only account for the most populous viral strains from one year to the next, no?
    I would prefer that to rare strains that I am unlikely to be exposed to.

    It is true that the process involved in manufacturing mass-produced vaccinations is highly disturbing, no?
    Not really. What is highly disturbing, anyway? The process for making beer is highly disturbing to some people, I'm sure. The production of Penicillin is quite disgusting. Who cares?
    Knowledge will forever govern ignorance; and a people who mean to be their own governors must arm themselves with the power which knowledge gives. -James Madison

  8. #7
    What the heck is a "Anti-Vaxxer"? Who thought that one up? And why? What purpose does it possibly serve to create labels or memes like this? Is it to minimize discussion of the relevance of any critical thought or logic from people who choose not to vaccinate themselves or their children? Come on, man...the suspense is killing me.

    It's funny, really, because I was just telling collins about this very phenomenon over in the other thread. Not two minutes ago.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 04-13-2014 at 10:01 PM.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    What the heck is a "Anti-Vaxxer"? Who thought that one up? And why? What purpose does it possibly serve to create labels or memes like this? Is it to minimize discussion of the relevance of any critical thought or logic from people who choose not to vaccinate themselves or their children? Come on, man...the suspense is killing me.

    It's funny, really, because I was just telling collins about this very phenomenon over in the other thread. Not two minutes ago.

    The medical monopoly.
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    The medical monopoly.

    Yeah but it's their loyal minions on keyboards that popularize the meme and the entire issue get's so dumbed down because of it that any critical discussion is frowned upon by default. You Know?

    I'm still kind of undecided on vaccination as a whole so don't really have a position on it at the moment but I'll tell you, some of the memes I'm seeing to initiate what should be critical discussion, if it's so important to bring up, are almost kindergarten. "Anti-Vaxxer". WTF is that?
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 04-13-2014 at 10:15 PM.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    Yeah but it's their loyal minions on keyboards that popularize the meme. You Know?

    I'm still kind of undecided on vaccination as a whole so don't really have a position on it at the moment but I'll tell you, some of the memes I'm seeing to initiate what should be critical discussion if it's so important to bring up are almost kindergarten. "Anti-Vaxxer". WTF is that?

    Vaccines are in the same league as GMOs. They are soft-kills. They do not kill you immediately, but will slowly kill you over time...just enough time to bankrupt you and your family in the process.



    Population Control Implementation (Slow Kill)

    As Henry Kissinger said population reduction has different characteristics in different parts of the world. In west, the slow kill method has been implemented. This includes vaccines containing mercury and Simian 40 cancer viruses; fluoride in water supplies as used by Hitler and Stalin in their concentration camps; the introduction of the excitotoxin aspartame into the food supply; the presence of xeno-estrogen / bisphenol in plastics; the introduction of GMO crops and their well understood destructive side effects; the use of cell phones will result in brain cancer for millions in coming years as a result of the radiation; and the use of microwave ovens - which the Soviets banned in the 1970's due to the fact that they destroy the nutritive content of food. Further, the combined effects of these programs has manifested itself with a 75% reduction in the sperm counts in the western males according to the UN (ask yourself why aren't the alarm bells ringing and a crisis announced to the public) and an increase in the rates of cancer from 1 in 66 to 1 in 3 over the past 50 years.
    http://www.globalistagenda.org/health.htm
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  13. #11
    I bet you could change their minds on one pretty quickly if they were bitten by a rabid dog.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by amy31416 View Post
    I bet you could change their minds on one pretty quickly if they were bitten by a rabid dog.
    That's the only vaccination I give my dogs. The rabies one. I did the lymes a few times and then stopped after they were grown but still very young.

    Here's some good reading on that. http://leerburg.com/vaccinosis.htm Great web board, btw.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by amy31416 View Post
    I bet you could change their minds on one pretty quickly if they were bitten by a rabid dog.
    I heard there was someone in South America who supposedly might have survived a possible case of suspected Rabies. I'll take my chances.
    Knowledge will forever govern ignorance; and a people who mean to be their own governors must arm themselves with the power which knowledge gives. -James Madison

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by James Madison View Post
    I heard there was someone in South America who supposedly might have survived a possible case of suspected Rabies. I'll take my chances.
    There have been a few cases of survivors without the vaccine, but it's extremely rare. You'd have to be a fool or suicidal to try it though. And with the only protocol known to work in some cases, you get to go into a medically induced coma and you receive antivirals anyways.

    Other than that, you're a goner.

    If you had kids, would you let them die after a bite from a rabid animal rather than allow doctors to administer the vaccine? Your choice, of course, but man--that's pretty hardcore.

  17. #15
    I don't recall the rabies vaccine being in the vaccine schedule--you know the 49 doses of vaccines children get before 6 years old schedule.
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by amy31416 View Post
    There have been a few cases of survivors without the vaccine, but it's extremely rare. You'd have to be a fool or suicidal to try it though. And with the only protocol known to work in some cases, you get to go into a medically induced coma and you receive antivirals anyways.

    Other than that, you're a goner.

    If you had kids, would you let them die after a bite from a rabid animal rather than allow doctors to administer the vaccine? Your choice, of course, but man--that's pretty hardcore.
    IIRC, Rabies is technically the most lethal virus known to man once you start exhibiting the very first symptom; the only reason it's not used as a weapon or why it hasn't wiped out all mammals is because the incubation period is unusually long (let's hope it stays that way).



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  20. #17
    The problem with conspiracy theorists is that they claim to be open-minded but absolutely no amount of evidence could ever dissuade them of their opinion.

  21. #18
    All it took for me to become an anti-vaxer was to have a close family member change over night and forever after having a tainted MMR vaccine. He was normal as normal could be and now he is being paid for damages each month because of it.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Working Poor View Post
    All it took for me to become an anti-vaxer was to have a close family member change over night and forever after having a tainted MMR vaccine. He was normal as normal could be and now he is being paid for damages each month because of it.
    So sad, I am sorry to hear that WP. But you see most pro-vaxxers who haven't seen the horrors, up close and personal, cannot believe the vaccines caused these tragic outcomes. Vaccines are magic to most of the pro-vaxxers, the problem is magic tricks are an illusion and sleight of hand.
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    So sad, I am sorry to hear that WP. But you see most pro-vaxxers who haven't seen the horrors, up close and personal, cannot believe the vaccines caused these tragic outcomes. Vaccines are magic to most of the pro-vaxxers, the problem is magic tricks are an illusion and sleight of hand.
    Anecdotal evidence, tragic as it is, it far outweighed by the mountain of evidence supporting the use of vaccines.

    People shouldn't be forced to vaccinate their children, but evidence is sufficient to suggest that everyone should do it freely, on their own accord. I know that I certainly will.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    I don't recall the rabies vaccine being in the vaccine schedule--you know the 49 doses of vaccines children get before 6 years old schedule.
    So the vaccines on the schedule are now the only "bad" vaccines that will mutilate your children? Funny thing is that they're likely made by the same evil companies that make the scheduled vaccines designed to kill people.

    My kid is vaccinated and is progressing far beyond her milestones intellectually and only got sick twice with stomach upsets in her three years. Guess I'm just lucky at Russian Roulette, even though the gun is fully loaded with concoctions designed to kill her, put her in a stupor or make her walk backwards and talk with an Australian accent.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by KingNothing View Post
    Anecdotal evidence, tragic as it is, it far outweighed by the mountain of evidence supporting the use of vaccines.

    People shouldn't be forced to vaccinate their children, but evidence is sufficient to suggest that everyone should do it freely, on their own accord. I know that I certainly will.

    You do what you think is best. However, I would implore you to educate before you vaccinate. Are you familiar with the cancer in vaccines? Are you aware of the ingredients in vaccines? Are you aware of the Autism numbers?

    God gave us immune systems for a reason. Having clean running water, sanitation and hygiene has been the reason for most disease eradication in western cultures. Also good nutrition is another reason why diseases went down before vaccines were even introduced.

    Immunization Graphs:
    Natural Infectious Disease Declines; Immunization Effectiveness; and Immunization Dangers
    http://www.whale.to/vaccine/Immuniza...phs-RO2009.pdf

    Disease decline before introduction of immunisation
    http://www.whale.to/vaccines/decline1.html

    60 Lab Studies Now Confirm Cancer Link to a Vaccine You Probably Had as a Child
    http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/20....DElMuIog.dpuf

    The Hidden Connection Behind Viruses, Vaccines and Cancer
    http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/hid...nes-and-cancer

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13QiSV_lrDQ

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AgKBVaPKWo
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by amy31416 View Post
    So the vaccines on the schedule are now the only "bad" vaccines that will mutilate your children? Funny thing is that they're likely made by the same evil companies that make the scheduled vaccines designed to kill people.

    My kid is vaccinated and is progressing far beyond her milestones intellectually and only got sick twice with stomach upsets in her three years. Guess I'm just lucky at Russian Roulette, even though the gun is fully loaded with concoctions designed to kill her, put her in a stupor or make her walk backwards and talk with an Australian accent.
    Did you have 49 doses when you were a kid? I do not think so. But you do what you think is best for your child. I will do the same, until such time as a majority of people who continue to believe vaccines are safe and effective think it is my children that are spreading disease.
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by amy31416 View Post
    My kid is vaccinated and is progressing far beyond her milestones intellectually and only got sick twice with stomach upsets in her three years. Guess I'm just lucky at Russian Roulette, even though the gun is fully loaded with concoctions designed to kill her, put her in a stupor or make her walk backwards and talk with an Australian accent.
    Not a good example. I doubt anything thrown at the The Chosen One, can affect our future leader that will leads us out of the current darkness that has befallen us. Just saying.
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by KingNothing View Post
    Anecdotal evidence, tragic as it is, it far outweighed by the mountain of evidence supporting the use of vaccines.

    People shouldn't be forced to vaccinate their children, but evidence is sufficient to suggest that everyone should do it freely, on their own accord. I know that I certainly will.
    You know of course that the admitted side effects of all drugs are actually so called anecdotal. Because in clinical trials the only out comes they are going to come up with are the ones they want to claim.

    I cannot believe that so many Ron Paul supporters defend this FDA approved crap. Why you trust the FDA I will never know.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Working Poor View Post
    You know of course that the admitted side effects of all drugs are actually so called anecdotal. Because in clinical trials the only out comes they are going to come up with are the ones they want to claim.

    I cannot believe that so many Ron Paul supporters defend this FDA approved crap. Why you trust the FDA I will never know.
    Because Free Marketer's biggest criticism of the FDA is that it's too strict; that is, those with just a hair more side-effects, but could be a potential treatment for X will often be denied, not because of profits, but because the FDA is a monopoly and bureaucrats like to keep their jobs (and if your name was on the approval of a slightly more risky drug, who do you think is going to get fired if someone gets hurt and sues/pitches a fit about it?)

    There was a gentleman I spoke with a while back that worked in the pharmaceutical industry; he said that if Tylenol were to be released on the market TODAY as a brand new drug, it would likely be denied because it had too many side effects or the number who had side effects was just a little too high.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Working Poor View Post
    You know of course that the admitted side effects of all drugs are actually so called anecdotal. Because in clinical trials the only out comes they are going to come up with are the ones they want to claim.

    I cannot believe that so many Ron Paul supporters defend this FDA approved crap. Why you trust the FDA I will never know.
    I couldn't care less what the FDA says. I care what rigorous studies show.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    Not a good example. I doubt anything thrown at the The Chosen One, can affect our future leader that will leads us out of the current darkness that has befallen us. Just saying.
    So far, the only logical point from the "opposition." Touche.

    I will make sure that she knows you are to be spared, but I think you need to have a kid or two just for the heck of it. Better PR if you're a father rather than some cantankerous old fella yelling at people to get off your property. It puts you closer to the top of the list.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    Not a good example. I doubt anything thrown at the The Chosen One, can affect our future leader that will leads us out of the current darkness that has befallen us. Just saying.
    So far, the only logical point from the "opposition." Touche.

    I will make sure that she knows you are to be spared, but I think you need to have a kid or two just for the heck of it. Better PR if you're a father rather than some cantankerous old fella yelling at people to get off your property. It puts you closer to the top of the list.

  34. #30
    Rumsfeld gives two thumbs up.

    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!

    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

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