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Thread: Tamiflu: drugs given for swine flu 'were waste of £500m'

  1. #1

    Thumbs down Tamiflu: drugs given for swine flu 'were waste of £500m'

    And another reason why Angelatc and crew should not be taken the least bit seriously

    (E.g., http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post5331060, http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...ch-from-Public)

    * This Including Zippy-somebody, Eduardo-something, 69-a string of numbers, et al.

    Tamiflu: drugs given for swine flu 'were waste of £500m'
    Drug Tamiflu does nothing to halt the spread of influenza and Government wasted nearly £500 million stockpiling it over swine flu pandemic, study finds

    The drug Tamiflu, given to tens of thousands of people during the swine flu pandemic, does nothing to halt the spread of influenza and the Government wasted nearly £500 million stockpiling it, a major study has found.

    The review, authored by Oxford University, claims that Roche, the drug’s Swiss manufacturer, gave a “false impression” of its effectiveness and accuses the company of “sloppy science”.

    The study found that Tamiflu, which was given to 240,000 people in the UK at a rate of 1,000 a week, has been linked to suicides of children in Japan and suggested that, far from easing flu symptoms, it could actually worsen them.

    Roche claimed at the time of the 2009 swine flu outbreak that trials had shown that it would reduce hospital admissions and complications such as pneumonia, bronchitis or sinusitis.

    Based on the results, the Department of Health bought around 40 million doses of Tamiflu at a cost of £424 million and prescribed it to around 240,000 people. In 2009, 0.5 per cent of the entire NHS budget was spent on the drug.

    However, researchers from The Cochrane Collaboration, a not-for-profit organisation which carries out reviews of health data, found that Tamiflu only cut flu-like symptoms from seven days to 6.3 days and there was no evidence of a reduction in hospital admissions.

    Eight children who took the drug in Japan ended up committing suicide after suffering psychotic episodes. Other side effects included kidney problems, nausea, vomiting and headaches.

    Many people reported feeling anxious or depressed when taking the drug.

    Data from 20 trials of Tamiflu also suggested that it prevented some people from producing sufficient numbers of their own antibodies to fight infection.

    Dr Carl Henegen, professor of evidence-based medicine at Oxford, said: “This drug was given to 1,000 people a week over a phone line, but it was no better for symptom relief than over-the-counter medication — and you’re talking about potentially serious complications. I wouldn’t prescribe it to my patients.”

    Dr Tom Jefferson, an epidemiologist with The Cochrane Collaboration, added: “The stuff is toxic. It increased the risk of psychiatric events, headaches and renal events in one in 150 people. People reported nausea, vomiting and constriction of the airways. In Japan eight children jumped out of windows and committed suicide.” The report’s authors said they had struggled to obtain the original trial data from Roche, which initially claimed it was confidential.

    The Government began stockpiling Tamiflu in 2006 over fears about bird flu after it was approved by the National Institute of Health and Clinical Excellence. It is not widely prescribed for regular flu.

    Roche said it “fundamentally disagrees” with the latest findings.

    Dr Daniel Thurley, the company’s UK medical director, added: “We disagree with the overall conclusions of this report. Roche stands behind the wealth of data for Tamiflu and the decisions of public health agencies worldwide, including the US and European Centres for Disease Control and Prevention and the World Health Organisation.

    “The report’s methodology is often unclear and inappropriate, and their conclusions could potentially have serious public health implications. Neuraminidase inhibitors are a vital treatment option for patients with influenza.”

    The Department of Health said that Tamiflu had a “proven record” of safety, quality and efficacy. But a spokesman said health officials would consider the latest Cochrane review “closely”.

    The review is published on Thursday in the British Medical Journal.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/sw...e-of-500m.html
    Last edited by jct74; 04-10-2014 at 11:30 AM. Reason: calling out member in thread title not allowed
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding one’s self in the ranks of the insane.” — Marcus Aurelius

    They’re not buying it. CNN, you dumb bastards!” — President Trump 2020

    Consilio et Animis de Oppresso Liber



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  3. #2
    "Last edited by jct74; Today at 10:30 AM. Reason: calling out member in thread title not allowed "

    Oh really come on now. As vitriol as they are I am certain they can handle a bit of sardonicism every now and then.
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding one’s self in the ranks of the insane.” — Marcus Aurelius

    They’re not buying it. CNN, you dumb bastards!” — President Trump 2020

    Consilio et Animis de Oppresso Liber

  4. #3
    Tamiflu is an ineffective rip-off, with known side effects.

    That being said, I hope we all know that Tamiflu is a drug that is supposed to treat the flu, and is not a vaccine or a cure.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  5. #4
    Guess who made a bundle pushing the Tamiflu? Donald Rumsfeld. No conflict of interests there, and I am sure we will be told that's how capitalism works.


    Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld has made more than $5 million from selling shares in the firm that discovered and developed the flu drug Tamiflu.

    He also retains shares worth $25 million or more. Tamiflu is bought in mass quantities by the government in order to treat a predicted outbreak of avian flu.

    The drug was developed by Gilead Sciences. Mr. Rumsfeld was on the board of Gilead between 1988 and 2001, and was chairman starting in 1997. When he left to join the Bush administration, he retained a large shareholding .

    In 2003, the year before concerns about bird flu began, the company took a loss. But in 2004, Tamiflu sales nearly quadrupled, and then nearly quadrupled again in 2005.

    Divestiture of his stocks in the corporation is not required by the Office of Government Ethics or the Department of Defense Standards of Conduct Office
    http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...r-tamiflu.aspx
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  6. #5
    Wow. the people that believe that the whole world is secretly run by lizard alien Illuminati Rockefeller decedents thinks I shouldn't be taken seriously? Awesome on a stick.

    AFAIK Tamiflu isn't supposed to prevent the flu. It relieves the symptoms.

    http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/...388710568.html

    Evidence from the trials reviewed showed Tamiflu and Relenza alleviated flulike symptoms in adults about half a day faster than in those taking a placebo. Using either drug as a preventative medicine also reduced the risk of developing symptomatic flu.
    And look at what they did: they cherry-picked the studies.

    Roche said it disagreed with Cochrane's conclusions and criticized the decision to use data from just 20 of its trials and exclude real-world data from seasonal use and from the 2009 swine flu pandemic.
    And let's not forget that according to your wacky conspiracy theories that if this turns out to be true it actually can't possibly be true because the medical establishment would never allow an ineffective or unsafe drug to be recalled because profits. And in fact, there's no way to prove the drugs are unsafe or ineffective because all the scientists are corrupted and on big pHARMa's payroll.

    You people make no sense to the sane.
    Last edited by angelatc; 04-10-2014 at 09:57 PM.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Weston White View Post
    "Last edited by jct74; Today at 10:30 AM. Reason: calling out member in thread title not allowed "

    Oh really come on now. As vitriol as they are I am certain they can handle a bit of sardonicism every now and then.
    He should have also bitched about you quoting the entire article, which is yet another violation of the forum guidelines.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    He should have also bitched about you quoting the entire article, which is yet another violation of the forum guidelines.
    A bad day for big-pharma is a bad day for Angelatc?
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding one’s self in the ranks of the insane.” — Marcus Aurelius

    They’re not buying it. CNN, you dumb bastards!” — President Trump 2020

    Consilio et Animis de Oppresso Liber

  9. #8
    But the pharmaceutical companies, media conglomerates and government bureaucrats wouldn't lie to us, would they?



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Weston White View Post
    A bad day for big-pharma is a bad day for Angelatc?
    Seems like she only complains about entire articles when they layeth the smacketh down on her pet peeves/investments though. Is just something I've noticed. Other articles that are posted that she happens to agree with? Well...crickets chirping there. Not a peep about those articles being posted. They're OK. Noooo problemo.

    I should go bump some of them just fer $#@!s n giggles. Heh. Hypocrite...

    Gets me chuckling. Comical...
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 04-11-2014 at 01:02 AM.

  12. #10
    Tamilfu does not claim it can cure the flu. It does claim it can reduce the severity and length of flu symptoms people suffer. And the article says it does.

    However, researchers from The Cochrane Collaboration, a not-for-profit organisation which carries out reviews of health data, found that Tamiflu only cut flu-like symptoms from seven days to 6.3 days and there was no evidence of a reduction in hospital admissions.
    http://www.webmd.com/drugs/mono-5294...e=tamiflu+oral

    Oseltamivir is used to treat symptoms caused by the flu virus (influenza). It helps make the symptoms (such as stuffy nose, cough, sore throat, fever/chills, aches, tiredness) less severe and shortens the recovery time by 1-2 days.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 04-11-2014 at 11:14 AM.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Tamilfu does not claim it can stop the spread of the flu. It does not cure or prevent the flu. It does claim it can reduce the severity and length of flu symptoms people suffer. And the article says it does.
    A mere reduction in illness for only 7/10 of 1-day, at a price tag of 500-million pounds. Absolutely, genius, I say old' chap!
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding one’s self in the ranks of the insane.” — Marcus Aurelius

    They’re not buying it. CNN, you dumb bastards!” — President Trump 2020

    Consilio et Animis de Oppresso Liber

  14. #12
    Cost was about $10 a dose (over 40 million doses). Would you be willing to pay $10 to feel better from the flu a day earlier? (aside from the issue of the national health system as a concept).

    What is the cost of a cold?

    http://www.emaxhealth.com/1357/90/33...lars-year.html

    The Common Cold Cost 40 Billion Dollars a Year

    The cold and flu season is coming. There will be aches and pains, running noses, sore throats and missed work. The other thing there will be is a big price tags. The common cold cost 40 billion dollars annually in the U.S.

    U-M researchers found that the total economic impact of cold virus to be more expensive than asthma, heart failure. Data specified that about 189 million school days are missed because of colds each year, which causes parents to miss 126 million workdays in order to take care of their children at home. This, in addition to the number of workdays missed by adult cold-sufferers, adds up to more than $20 billion in cold-related work loss each year.

    “From a bottle of cough syrup to missed time at work and school, the price tag of catching a cold really adds up," says A. Mark Fendrick, M.D., lead author on the paper and co-director of the Consortium for Health Outcomes, Innovation, Cost Effectiveness Studies (CHOICES) at UMHS. "Since there is no cure for the common cold, it does not receive a lot of attention when compared to less common conditions. We wanted to calculate the total economic impact that the cold has on our economy."

    "A cold is the most commonly occurring illness in humans, so it was no surprise that there are approximately 500 million colds each year in the U.S.," says Fendrick. "What was a surprise is how often the public uses the health care system to treat a cold."

    The study measured doctor's bills, over-the-counter medication, and prescription drugs. It also recorded missed school and work days, a cost that is generally overlooked, added Fendrick. "For some, catching a cold may lead to a trip to the drug store to stock up on throat lozenges and nasal decongestants, and for others a brief doctor's visit," says Fendrick. "The public doesn't usually consider the costs associated with missing a day of work due to illness or having to stay home to take care of a sick child. Not surprisingly, lost work drives most of the cost."

    Though most people are aware that antibiotics have no effect on the viruses that cause colds, the study found that about 41 million antibiotic prescriptions are written for cold sufferers each year at a cost of $1.1 billion. Further, Americans spend $2.9 billion on over-the-counter drugs and $400 million on prescription drugs for relief of symptoms.

    "We found that the common cold leads to more than 100 million physician visits annually at a conservative cost estimate of $7.7 billion per year," Fendrick says. "More than one third of patients who saw a doctor received an antibiotic prescription. While these unnecessary costs are problematic, what is more concerning is how these treatment patterns contribute to the development of antibiotic resistance, a significant public health concern."

    More at link.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 04-11-2014 at 11:32 AM.

  15. #13
    No, not the cost of a cold, the supposed recovery gain of a mere 7/10 of a day. And that $10 is likely prior to markup, also this is in pounds not dollars, the latter are vastly worth less.
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding one’s self in the ranks of the insane.” — Marcus Aurelius

    They’re not buying it. CNN, you dumb bastards!” — President Trump 2020

    Consilio et Animis de Oppresso Liber

  16. #14
    How would you measure the cost/ benefits of about one day less having the flu to say if it costs too much or not? If the average cold was seven days, you are saving ten percent of the costs of being sick. Ten percent of $40 billion would be $4 billion in savings at a cost of $500 million (assumes, perhaps incorrectly, that the costs are the same every day). Is that a deal?
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 04-11-2014 at 12:51 PM.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Weston White View Post
    A bad day for big-pharma is a bad day for Angelatc?
    No, the point is apparently far too complicated for you to grasp. I don't care about "big pharma" any more than I care about Mom & Pop shops. What I care about is morons who can't advance a conversation beyond 3rd grade science and apparently believe that being a bully will mask their woefully inadequate reasoning abilities.

    I have posted similar articles in the past and likely would have posted this one if I had seen it before you did.

    Nobody has ever said that corporate America is run by saints and angels who would never falsify data in order to sell a product. What we who believe in science say is that there needs to be proof that medications do and don't work.

    When the anti-fact, anti-science can't produce such evidence they merely dismiss it with unproven allegations about all scientists across the globe being on the payrolls of the big corporations, and insist that the truth can't ever come out because the powerful interests that are controlling the market ensure it.

    If this study has merit, it actually proves that we are right and you wrong. There is no conspiracy, and snake oil sellers eventually get outed by research.

    But of course, everybody here knows that point will entirely continue to elude you.
    Last edited by angelatc; 04-11-2014 at 01:08 PM.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Cost was about $10 a dose (over 40 million doses). Would you be willing to pay $10 to feel better from the flu a day earlier? (aside from the issue of the national health system as a concept).

    What is the cost of a cold?

    http://www.emaxhealth.com/1357/90/33...lars-year.html



    More at link.
    As Donnay once posted, elderberries have also been proven to reduce the duration and severity of the flu. But that elixir costs more and isn't tested as stringently. http://www.amazon.com/Sambucol-Origi.../dp/B001ESA36I

    Obviously I don't want to government buying either of these products for anybody. But if they're going to, damned straight I want them to buy the cheapest products available.



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  20. #17
    If you're working half time (20 hours a week) for minimum wage, then taking this drug would mean that you get an extra 2 hours of work; the $10 cost would be more than covered and you would still have money left over.

    Now, if the drug cost something like $100 a dose, then you'd have to be making a very high salary to justify its benefits...but that's not the case here.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    How would you measure the cost/ benefits of about one day less having the flu to say if it costs too much or not? If the average cold was seven days, you are saving ten percent of the costs of being sick. Ten percent of $40 billion would be $4 billion in savings at a cost of $500 million (assumes, perhaps incorrectly, that the costs are the same every day). Is that a deal?
    Quote Originally Posted by Fox McCloud View Post
    If you're working half time (20 hours a week) for minimum wage, then taking this drug would mean that you get an extra 2 hours of work; the $10 cost would be more than covered and you would still have money left over.

    Now, if the drug cost something like $100 a dose, then you'd have to be making a very high salary to justify its benefits...but that's not the case here.
    Well, you guys have it all figured out. Go ahead and get some Tamiflu next time you are sick (don't ask me to pay for it). Take a double dose, it will work twice as fast.

    Who should not take Tamiflu?

    Do not take Tamiflu if you are allergic to oseltamivir phosphate or any of the ingredients in Tamiflu.

    What should I tell my healthcare provider before taking Tamiflu?

    Before you take Tamiflu, tell your healthcare provider if you:

    Have problems swallowing Tamiflu capsules.
    Have kidney problems.
    Have a history of fructose (fruit sugar) intolerance. Tamiflu contains sorbitol and may cause stomach upset and diarrhea in people who are fructose intolerant.
    Have any other medical conditions.
    Are pregnant or plan to become pregnant. It is not known if Tamiflu will harm your unborn baby.
    Are breastfeeding or plan to breastfeed. It is not known if Tamiflu passes into your breast milk. You and your healthcare provider should decide if you will take Tamiflu while you are breastfeeding.

    Tell your healthcare provider about all the medicines you take, including prescription or over-the-counter medicines, vitamins, and herbal supplements.

    Tamiflu may cause serious side effects, including:

    Serious skin and allergic reactions. Tamiflu can cause serious skin and allergic reactions. Stop taking Tamiflu and get medical help right away if you get any of the following symptoms:
    Skin rash or hives
    Your skin blisters and peels
    Blisters or sores in your mouth
    Itching
    Swelling of your face, eyes, lips, tongue, or throat
    Trouble breathing
    Chest pain or tightness
    Change in behavior. People, especially children, who have the flu can develop nervous system problems and abnormal behavior that can lead to death. During treatment with Tamiflu, tell your healthcare provider right away if you or your child has confusion, speech problems, shaky movements, seizures, or starts hearing voices or seeing things that are not really there (hallucinations).

    The most common side effects of Tamiflu when used for treatment of the flu include nausea and vomiting.

    The most common side effects of Tamiflu when used for prevention of the flu include nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, and stomach (abdomen) pain.

    Tell your healthcare provider if you have any side effect that bothers you or that does not go away.

    These are not all the possible side effects of Tamiflu.

    http://www.tamiflu.com/side-effects
    Along with its needed effects, oseltamivir (the active ingredient contained in Tamiflu) may cause some unwanted effects. Although not all of these side effects may occur, if they do occur they may need medical attention.
    ...
    General

    The most common side effects are nausea and vomiting.

    The most common side effects reported in patients receiving oseltamivir (the active ingredient contained in Tamiflu) during studies for the treatment of influenza were nausea, vomiting, bronchitis, insomnia, and vertigo. Nausea and vomiting were generally mild to moderate in severity and usually occurred on the first 2 days of treatment. Less than 1% of patients discontinued oseltamivir early due to nausea and vomiting.

    Side effects in prophylaxis studies were similar to those in treatment studies. Side effects that occurred more frequently than in treatment studies were aches and pains, rhinorrhea, dyspepsia, and upper respiratory tract infections.
    Gastrointestinal

    Gastrointestinal side effects have been the most commonly reported and have included nausea (without vomiting; up to 10%), vomiting (up to 9%), diarrhea (up to 7%), abdominal pain (2%), and pseudomembranous colitis (less than 1%). Gastrointestinal bleeding and hemorrhagic colitis have been reported during postmarketing experience.
    Respiratory

    Respiratory side effects have included cough (up to 5%) and bronchitis (up to 2%). The incidences were similar or higher among placebo patients and may represent symptoms of underlying influenza infection. Pneumonia has been reported (less than 1%) and may also be a symptom of underlying disease. Nasopharyngitis, congestion, rhinitis, and dry, sore throat have also been reported.

    Nervous system

    Nervous system side effects have included headache (up to 18%), dizziness (up to 2%), insomnia (1%), and vertigo (up to 1%). The incidences were similar or higher among placebo patients and may represent symptoms of underlying influenza infection. Seizure has been reported during postmarketing experience.
    Psychiatric

    Psychiatric side effects have included abnormal behavior and delirium (including symptoms such as altered level of consciousness, confusion, delusions, hallucinations, agitation, anxiety, nightmares) during postmarketing experience. Mania has been reported.

    Delirium and abnormal behavior leading to injury, with fatal outcomes in some cases, in influenza patients receiving oseltamivir have been reported during postmarketing experience (mostly in Japan). Although frequency is unknown, based on oseltamivir usage, these events appear to be uncommon. These events were primarily reported in pediatric patients and often had an abrupt onset and rapid resolution. Since influenza may be associated with a variety of neurologic and behavioral symptoms (including hallucinations, delirium, and abnormal behavior, with fatal outcomes in some cases) and may occur with encephalitis or encephalopathy but can occur without obvious severe disease, oseltamivir's contribution to these effects has not been established.
    Other

    Other side effects have included fatigue (up to 8%), humerus fracture (less than 1%), pyrexia (less than 1%), and peritonsillar abscess (less than 1%). Drowsiness and malaise have been reported; however, causality has not been established. Hypothermia has been reported during postmarketing experience.
    Hematologic

    Hematologic side effects have included anemia (less than 1%). Pancytopenia has been reported; however, causality has not been established.
    Hypersensitivity

    Hypersensitivity side effects have included allergy, anaphylactic/anaphylactoid reactions, and swelling of the face or tongue during postmarketing experience.

    Dermatologic

    Dermatologic side effects have included rash, dermatitis, urticaria, eczema, and serious skin reactions (including toxic epidermal necrolysis, Stevens-Johnson syndrome, and erythema multiforme) during postmarketing experience.
    Hepatic

    Hepatic side effects have included hepatitis and abnormal liver function tests during postmarketing experience. Hepatic failure has been reported; however, causality has not been established.

    Cardiovascular

    Cardiovascular side effects have included unstable angina (less than 1%). Sudden cardiopulmonary arrest has been reported; however, causality has not been established. Arrhythmia has been reported during postmarketing experience.
    Metabolic

    Metabolic side effects have included aggravation of diabetes during postmarketing experience. Hyperglycemia has been reported; however, causality has not been established.

    Immunologic

    Immunologic side effects have included sepsis; however, causality has not been established.

    Musculoskeletal

    Musculoskeletal side effects have included arthralgia in at least one patient.

    http://www.drugs.com/sfx/tamiflu-side-effects.html
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Well, you guys have it all figured out. Go ahead and get some Tamiflu next time you are sick (don't ask me to pay for it). Take a double dose, it will work twice as fast.
    Well, I think you're mistaken about a double dose working twice as fast. And I think we all agree that those people that want to take Tamiflu should pay for their own Tamiflu.

    But I sense some bitterness over the fact that it does indeed make economic sense to invest in a $10 treatment that allows a person to return to productivity sooner.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Weston White View Post
    And another reason why Angelatc and crew should not be taken the least bit seriously

    * This Including Zippy-somebody, Eduardo-something, 69-a string of numbers, et al.
    Yay! I was mentioned in someone's post!

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Well, I think you're mistaken about a double dose working twice as fast.
    Lol. You think so? It seemed logical...using faulty logic.

    And I think we all agree that those people that want to take Tamiflu should pay for their own Tamiflu.

    But I sense some bitterness over the fact that it does indeed make economic sense to invest in a $10 treatment that allows a person to return to productivity sooner.
    Who would make this investment? The government? Is that $10 a dose? Nice sales pitch, but it adds up, like every other Federal budget item.

    And I leave it to Zippy to provide us with partial analysis to defend government actions. What about the side effects? How much will those eventually cost? Will they delay a return to productivity? Are we doing economic analysis or just a sales pitch? How much for all of these additional Doctor's visits to get prescriptions? Are those free? What if it doesn't really get people back to work sooner? Who's to say that a few hours less duration of symptoms will actually result in more productivity? And what if this thing is nothing but a placebo (at best)?

    Everyone is free to use whatever remedy or placebo they want, but don't sell it as a worthwhile government investment.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    How would you measure the cost/ benefits of about one day less having the flu to say if it costs too much or not? If the average cold was seven days, you are saving ten percent of the costs of being sick. Ten percent of $40 billion would be $4 billion in savings at a cost of $500 million (assumes, perhaps incorrectly, that the costs are the same every day). Is that a deal?
    A. Most people do not stay out sick an entire week (excluding those that work in environments where even a hint of illness is never permitted), as (1) they cannot afford to and (2) unless one has a compromised immune system they can expect to get over the bulk of a cold or flu anywhere from two to four days and be back to work feeling at least well enough.

    B. It supposedly reduces the illness by just over one-half of a full day, begging the question how many people are going to call in well that last day so they can return to work the remainder of their shift (i.e., presuming they happen to get better prior to their shift ending for the day)? Most people would just opt to stay home and either recuperate and/or catch up on their neglected duties at home, getting their affairs in order, etc., before again returning to work the next day; and this is of course presuming that their final sick day is not on their weekend, a holiday, scheduled day off, etc.

    C. 500-million pounds is actually equal to 836,500,000-dollars.

    D. The total costs involved at the consumer’s end is not a mere $10 per dose (that is only the costs involved in its “stockpiling”), otherwise that means they are being sold and injected by those in the medical process entirely out of their pockets or the actual administering of these vaccines were otherwise being subsidized by taxpayers. However, as we all know too well, Tamiflu is in the business of making profit, as are those being paid to peddle and administer their ineffectual products.
    Last edited by Weston White; 04-11-2014 at 09:08 PM.
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding one’s self in the ranks of the insane.” — Marcus Aurelius

    They’re not buying it. CNN, you dumb bastards!” — President Trump 2020

    Consilio et Animis de Oppresso Liber

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    I don't care about "big pharma" any more than I care about Mom & Pop shops.
    Yes, we are all well aware; you hate big pharma just about as much as you hate Walmart. (Wink, wink.)

    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    What I care about is morons who can't advance a conversation beyond 3rd grade science and apparently believe that being a bully will mask their woefully inadequate reasoning abilities.
    Somebody, please tell me I am not the only one noticing the hypocrisy festering throughout that statement?

    Please, stop it you’re killing me here Angelatc. No, seriously.

    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    When the anti-fact, anti-science can't produce such evidence they merely dismiss it with unproven allegations about all scientists across the globe being on the payrolls of the big corporations, and insist that the truth can't ever come out because the powerful interests that are controlling the market ensure it.
    So, I suppose that whenever you actually do post such articles, you don’t actually bother reading them? Because what you just wrote makes about as much sense as you claiming you do not at all care about big pharma—or mom and pop for that matter.

    And I suppose you have just conveniently forgotten about Climategate I and II?

    Also I see that you have Edward Snowden as your avatar, so I take you that you fail to grasp what is that he represents and you just like him because you find him to be incredibly, super, hunky?

    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    If this study has merit, it actually proves that we are right and you wrong. There is no conspiracy, and snake oil sellers eventually get outed by research.
    Yes certainly, most all snake oil peddlers get eventually get ousted. Again, I remind you of Al Gore, Climategate I and II, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    But of course, everybody here knows that point will entirely continue to elude you.
    Gladly, I do contest that assertion.
    Last edited by Weston White; 04-11-2014 at 09:11 PM.
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding one’s self in the ranks of the insane.” — Marcus Aurelius

    They’re not buying it. CNN, you dumb bastards!” — President Trump 2020

    Consilio et Animis de Oppresso Liber

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Well, you guys have it all figured out. Go ahead and get some Tamiflu next time you are sick (don't ask me to pay for it). Take a double dose, it will work twice as fast.
    Really? This is your "gotcha"; basically a passive-aggressive insult and complete mischaracterization of us? I don't think any of us directly advocated for the government paying for it...and nowhere did we recommend taking a ton of it to get back to work sooner....we just said 1 dose = 10% faster recovery = net benefit, even if you work few hours at low wages.



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  29. #25

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Fox McCloud View Post
    Really? This is your "gotcha"; basically a passive-aggressive insult and complete mischaracterization of us? I don't think any of us directly advocated for the government paying for it...and nowhere did we recommend taking a ton of it to get back to work sooner....we just said 1 dose = 10% faster recovery = net benefit, even if you work few hours at low wages.
    My point was that the cost benefit "analysis" was lacking. There are so many costs, drawbacks and side effects that were not taken into account before declaring a "net benefit".
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Fox McCloud View Post
    accidental double-post
    You should have left it. Your statement would have been twice as effective.

  32. #28
    The Tamiflu scandal will be repeated, and people will die, unless drug companies release all their data

    Tom Chivers

    Flu is actually a pretty nasty disease. People say they've got "the flu" when they've really only got a cold, but a genuine bout of influenza knocks you off your feet for several days, and is a major killer in the elderly; an outbreak in 2011 killed around 600 people. But don't worry! Since 2006, during the avian flu scare, the Government has spent £424 million stockpiling a drug called Tamiflu.

    Unfortunately for the Government, and for elderly people, and for people who don't want to spend a week in bed aching and sweating and vomiting, it seems that Tamiflu doesn't work very well.

    The Cochrane Library, the great centre for epidemiology and public health data, has carried out a huge meta-analysis, a study combining the data from dozens of smaller trials, into Tamiflu and another "neuraminidase inhibitor", Relenza. Cochrane Reviews are hugely authoritative works, a sort of gold standard if you'll forgive the cliché. And, five years after the UK and US began spending billions to buy millions upon millions of doses, the Cochrane Library has reported.

    On average, flu symptoms last for seven days. With treatment with a neuraminidase inhibitor, they last, on average, for 6.3 days. Consider the front page held.

    It's worse than that for Tamiflu and Relenza. Even that limited improvement was unclear in children, and "there was no evidence of a reduction in hospitalisations or serious influenza complications (confirmed pneumonia, bronchitis, sinusitis or ear infection) in either adults or children," says the Cochrane Review. And the study found an increase in cases of vomiting and nausea and an increase in risk of psychiatric events. Roughly speaking, for every 100 people treated with the drug, three or four people would suffer nausea or vomiting who wouldn't have otherwise, and one extra person can be expected to suffer an adverse psychiatric reaction. (This is known as the "number needed to harm".)



    And yet this drug has not only been on the market for years, it's been actively stockpiled by the NHS as a frontline defence against flu pandemics. How on earth, you might reasonably ask, has a drug of such startlingly limited use managed to get to this position?

    The answer is depressingly simple: Roche and GlaxoSmithKline didn't release their data. The Cochrane Library has, after years of trying, got hold of 20 Roche studies into Tamiflu and 24 GSK studies into Relenza. Fiona Godlee, the BMJ's editor, says that "This review is the result of many years of struggles to access and use trial data, which was previously unpublished and even hidden from view." But the data had already existed, and was simply sitting in Roche and GSK's vaults. None of the information used to create this review is, in itself, new. It's all been around for years. The only thing that's new is that people outside the companies that make the drugs have access to it. And it's taken the Cochrane Library years of arguing with Roche to get it; the company, at first, insisted on confidentiality agreements, and then only gave snippets of data. Credit to them, I suppose, for releasing it at last.

    Of course it's appalling that so much money has been wasted on a drug that barely works. But the real scandal, as Ben Goldacre, a doctor and journalist behind the AllTrials campaign for transparency in trial data, says, is that "Roche broke no law by withholding vital information on how well its drug works". In fact, as he points out, it's actually just Roche's bad luck that they're the ones caught out by this; "the methods and results of clinical trials on the drugs we use today are still routinely and legally being withheld from doctors, researchers and patients", and it could have been any one of dozens of other treatments into dozens of other diseases which happened to be the one which was caught out.

    Continued...
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  33. #29
    The Tamiflu scandal will be repeated, and people will die, unless drug companies release all their data
    Big scary headline, but how many have died from taking Tamiflu?

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    My point was that the cost benefit "analysis" was lacking. There are so many costs, drawbacks and side effects that were not taken into account before declaring a "net benefit".
    If that were true, I think you'd have presented them.

    Side effects are a personal matter, and we're talking about the broad spectrum.

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