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Thread: Calvinists and being saved

  1. #1

    Calvinists and being saved

    In this thread, I'm not saying that all Calvinists are unsaved, because there certainly are Calvinists who don't have the three characteristics that I'm going to mention below. But at least many of the most militant Calvinists I certainly believe are unsaved for several reasons. This is why:

    1) They're the most arrogant, egotistical people on the face of the earth, and the Bible makes it clear that God opposes the proud and gives grace to the humble. Since these people have an enormous amount of pride and aren't at all humble, how is it possible for them to ever receive grace from God? It isn't, which is why it's clear that these people have never been regenerated. Here are just a few verses in the Bible about humility.

    2 Chronicles 7:14 if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

    Psalms 25:9 He leads the humble in what is right, and teaches the humble his way.

    Psalms 55:19 God will give ear and humble them, he who is enthroned from of old, Selah because they do not change and do not fear God.

    1 Peter 5:5 Likewise, you who are younger, be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”

    2) They bear absolutely no good fruit at all. This goes back to what I was saying in the first point, which is that they show no humility and only pride and arrogance. There's no sign at all that these people bear any good fruit and are Christians. The Bible is also clear that a true Christian will love their neighbors, and the goal that these people have in life seems to be to spread hate, not love. Here are a few verses regarding bearing fruit and spreading love to others.

    Matthew 7:16-20

    You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17"So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18"A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19"Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20"So then, you will know them by their fruits.

    Mark 12:31

    The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these.

    3) Since they believe that their works play absolutely no role at all in where they go when they die, they believe that they don't even have to try to do what's right. They don't believe that they're required to follow any laws or any rules. They believe that since they're one of the "elect" and saved by grace, nothing they do or don't do can change that. The 10 commandments are completely obsolete, so it's no longer wrong for them to commit murder, commit adultery, use the Lord's name in vain, etc. That causes many of them to live a life completely full of sin, because they believe that they're elect and saved solely through their belief. Obedience towards God isn't a requirement to make it into heaven. They actually encourage disobedience, because if you try to be obedient towards God, it means that you're relying on your own good works to make it to heaven and are thus damned to hell. But this is obviously not what the Bible actually teaches. Paul certainly taught that no one who lives a life of willful, intentional sin will make it to heaven.

    1 Corinthians 6:9-10

    Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

    Hebrews 10:26-27

    If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
    Last edited by Brett85; 03-28-2014 at 10:50 AM.



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  3. #2
    I don't see how you could possibly know that anyone here is in category #2 (you aren't with us our whole lives) and #3 is a blatant strawman.

    I can see why you'd think point #1, and I can't speak for anyone other than myself, but its easy for passion for truth to be confused as pride. We know that God alone saves us, thus we are NOT self-righteous.
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  4. #3
    That said, I did lol at the title
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  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    and #3 is a blatant strawman.
    Maybe so, but it isn't any more of a straw man than the way that Arminianism and other non Calvinistic theologies are often characterized on this forum.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    Maybe so, but it isn't any more of a straw man than the way that Arminianism and other non Calvinistic theologies are often characterized on this forum.
    I don't really see how. At any rate, I believe that a person who is saved by God's grace CANNOT HELP but to do good works out of gratitude for what Christ did for him. Where I disagree with some here is that I do not believe it is these works that are the ground for a Christian's acceptance before God, but Christ's perfect works.
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  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    Where I disagree with some here is that I do not believe it is these works that are the ground for a Christian's acceptance before God, but Christ's perfect works.
    No one can be accepted by God solely through works or how we live our lives, as even one sin separates us from God. When we mess up, we're saved and forgiven by the blood of Christ. But we're still called to give our best effort to be obedient to God and follow his commandments. We can't just use our salvation as a license to sin. We're called to do our best to do what's right, and then repent when we mess up, and at that point Christ's blood covers us. But no one can make it to heaven if they simply have the attitude that all their sins are covered, so they're just going to sin as much as they want to and still make it into heaven.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    No one can be accepted by God solely through works or how we live our lives, as even one sin separates us from God. When we mess up, we're saved and forgiven by the blood of Christ. But we're still called to give our best effort to be obedient to God and follow his commandments. We can't just use our salvation as a license to sin. We're called to do our best to do what's right, and then repent when we mess up, and at that point Christ's blood covers us. But no one can make it to heaven if they simply have the attitude that all their sins are covered, so they're just going to sin as much as they want to and still make it into heaven.
    You're responding to a strawman here...

    Nobody is saying that you can just sin as much as you want and be unrepentant and still make it to heaven. Nobody who has been exposed to God's grace will do that. But it is not on the BASIS of our imperfect efforts that we are saved, rather the imperfect efforts are a RESULT of being saved, and these works also come from God himself (Ephesians 2:10.)
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  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    You're responding to a strawman here...

    Nobody is saying that you can just sin as much as you want and be unrepentant and still make it to heaven. Nobody who has been exposed to God's grace will do that. But it is not on the BASIS of our imperfect efforts that we are saved, rather the imperfect efforts are a RESULT of being saved, and these works also come from God himself (Ephesians 2:10.)
    I think that the imperfect efforts are a result of the Holy Spirit coming into us and dwelling within us. Still, since I believe in the concept of free will, I believe that we have the free will to disobey the Holy Spirit. We certainly do, since all of us sin after we become Christians. And we aren't going to lose our salvation every time we sin, but at some point if we choose to just willingly disobey the Holy Spirit over years and years, and never feel sorry or repent of that sin, at some point we get cut off from the vine.
    Last edited by Brett85; 03-28-2014 at 04:11 PM.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    I think that the imperfect efforts are a result of the holy spirit coming into us and dwelling within us. Still, since I believe in the concept of free will, I believe that we have the free will to disobey the holy spirit. We certainly do, since all of us sin after we become Christians. And we aren't going to lose our salvation every time we sin, but at some point if we choose to just willingly disobey the holy spirit over years and years, and never feel sorry or repent of that sin, at some point we get cut off from the branch.
    OK, now you're being clearer about what you believe. We may be getting somewhere now

    I don't really like the term "free will", but I do believe people make real choices. I also believe that God predestines our choices. This whole thing goes back to God's "prescriptive" will vs his "declarative will" (that term may be wrong, but the concept is intact regardless. God's "prescriptive" will is certainly resistible, but God's declarative will is not resistible, if that makes sense.

    As for salvation, if you believe that you can lose your salvation, you do not have a high view of Christ's death, and I have to question whether you really know grace at all. Your view makes it out that Christ's death was not enough, and that something in the sinner is needed to complete the work. This is dangerous.

    By contrast, God will glorify all of his people for whom Christ died (Romans 8:28-35.)

    But then you might say "people can just sin all they want and still get to heaven?"

    Well... no, because those who would do that have not been transformed by God in the first place, as per James 2.
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    As for salvation, if you believe that you can lose your salvation, you do not have a high view of Christ's death, and I have to question whether you really know grace at all. Your view makes it out that Christ's death was not enough, and that something in the sinner is needed to complete the work. This is dangerous.
    This is just the conclusion I came to after reading the New Testament and studying it for two or three weeks. The verse about the vine and the branches are one example. Jesus said that "he cuts off every branch IN ME that bears no fruit." When he said "in me," that makes it clear that these branches were part of the vine to begin with. When we accept Christ, we become a branch on Christ's vine. That verse goes on to say that we're supposed to bear fruit after we become a branch on the vine, and if we don't, we'll be cut off from the branch. You can't get cut off from the branch if you were never on the branch to begin with. I just don't see how to get around that. That's just one example out of many.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    This is just the conclusion I came to after reading the New Testament and studying it for two or three weeks. The verse about the vine and the branches are one example. Jesus said that "he cuts off every branch IN ME that bears no fruit." When he said "in me," that makes it clear that these branches were part of the vine to begin with. When we accept Christ, we become a branch on Christ's vine. That verse goes on to say that we're supposed to bear fruit after we become a branch on the vine, and if we don't, we'll be cut off from the branch. You can't get cut off from the branch if you were never on the branch to begin with. I just don't see how to get around that. That's just one example out of many.
    Yet your conclusion cannot stand up to the rest of scripture.
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  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    At any rate, I believe that a person who is saved by God's grace CANNOT HELP but to do good works out of gratitude for what Christ did for him.
    Are you calling yourself unsaved?

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    Yet your conclusion cannot stand up to the rest of scripture.
    Well, your conclusion can't stand up to the parable of the vine and the branches, the parable of the talents, and many other Biblical teachings.

  16. #14
    Um, why was the title of my thread changed when the title of Sola Fide's thread about Arminians hasn't been changed?

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    Um, why was the title of my thread changed when the title of Sola Fide's thread about Arminians hasn't been changed?

    I don't know, but I'm getting more and more sick of the moderation here every day. I think we'd be better off with no moderation of this subforum at all than the way its been going.

    It may be because SF's title was the title of an off-site article. Or they may be about to change it. Either way, its incredibly stupid. And I can absolutely guarantee you that SF is going to agree with me that its stupid. And whoever decided to do it is an idiot that I have no respect for, whether the forum admin or not.

    I'm so sick of this. We need a new forum for these discussions.
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  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by eduardo89 View Post
    Are you calling yourself unsaved?
    No.
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    No.
    Well then, where are you good words which you should be overflowing with since you claimed to be 'saved?'

    From your posts on here, all you sow is disunity and discord between Christians. You constantly insult, judge, and degrade. You are full of pride, arrogance, and malice towards others. You continually lie and mock the beliefs of others. You lack a shred of compassion, kindness, or charity to those who you feel are in error.

    So by your own post, you judge yourself as unsaved.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by eduardo89 View Post
    Well then, where are you good words which you should be overflowing with since you claimed to be 'saved?'

    From your posts on here, all you sow is disunity and discord between Christians. You constantly insult, judge, and degrade. You are full of pride, arrogance, and malice towards others. You continually lie and mock the beliefs of others. You lack a shred of compassion, kindness, or charity to those who you feel are in error.

    So by your own post, you judge yourself as unsaved.
    By this post you show you don't really understand me. And I do not make discord between true Christians. Jesus was the harshest with the Pharisees, and your church is the modern day Pharisees.

    Of course, you'll probably just report this post rather than discussing the issue, the moderation is getting to the point where we can't seriously discuss anything anymore.
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  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    By this post you show you don't really understand me. And I do not make discord between true Christians. Jesus was the harshest with the Pharisees, and your church is the modern day Pharisees.
    Jesus chastised the Pharisees and their arrogance and hypocrisy, not for their theology. St. Paul was a Pharisee. Are you saying he was unsaved?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    Of course, you'll probably just report this post rather than discussing the issue, the moderation is getting to the point where we can't seriously discuss anything anymore.
    The problem isn't the moderation, the problem is you and your arrogance and insults towards others.

  23. #20
    What's the basis for the points made in the OP?

    I see nothing in this wikipedia article about egotism or not bearing fruit being parts of Calvinism.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism
    Last edited by erowe1; 03-28-2014 at 12:28 PM.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    The 10 commandments are completely obsolete, so it's no longer wrong for them to commit murder, commit adultery, use the Lord's name in vain, etc. That causes many of them to live a life completely full of sin, because they believe that they're elect and saved solely through their belief.
    Source?

  25. #22
    @eduardo- Did the Pharisees believe the same theology that Paul believed? Obviously not. He was a Pharisee in opposition to the Saducees...
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  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    @eduardo- Did the Pharisees believe the same theology that Paul believed? Obviously not. He was a Pharisee in opposition to the Saducees...
    No, they did not believe the same theology, but that is because God has not yet revealed Himself to the Pharisees in the manner in which He later did to Paul.

    But where did Jesus chastise the Pharisees for their theology?

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    I don't see how you could possibly know that anyone here is in category #2 (you aren't with us our whole lives) and #3 is a blatant strawman.

    I can see why you'd think point #1, and I can't speak for anyone other than myself, but its easy for passion for truth to be confused as pride. We know that God alone saves us, thus we are NOT self-righteous.

    Calling people names isn't a "passion for truth".
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!



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  29. #25
    That was the VERY reason he condemned them, they thought their works merited acceptance before God. So do you, otherwise you wouldn't be a baptismal regenerationist or a sacramentalist.
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  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    Calling people names isn't a "passion for truth".
    Was John the Baptist sinning when he called the Pharisees "vipers"?

    Was David sinning when he called God's enemies "brutish men"?

    Was Jesus sinning when he called the Pharisees "Whitewashed tombs"?

    Was Paul sinning when he called the Galatians "anathema"?

    When someone repetitively and stubbornly rejects the truth, and tries to encourage other people to accept the false gospel, "name calling" can be appropriate.
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by eduardo89 View Post
    But where did Jesus chastise the Pharisees for their theology?
    Mark 7:1-20
    The Pharisees and some of the teachers of the law who had come from Jerusalem gathered around Jesus 2 and saw some of his disciples eating food with hands that were defiled, that is, unwashed. 3 (The Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they give their hands a ceremonial washing, holding to the tradition of the elders. 4 When they come from the marketplace they do not eat unless they wash. And they observe many other traditions, such as the washing of cups, pitchers and kettles.)

    5 So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with defiled hands?”

    6 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:

    “‘These people honor me with their lips,
    but their hearts are far from me.
    7 They worship me in vain;
    their teachings are merely human rules.’

    8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”

    9 And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,' and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’ 11 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)— 12 then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. 13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

    14 Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15 Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them. Rather, it is what comes out of a person that defiles them.”

    17 After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18 “Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? 19 For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)

    20 He went on: “What comes out of a person is what defiles them. 21 For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, 22 adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and defile a person.”
    Last edited by erowe1; 03-28-2014 at 12:43 PM.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    Um, why was the title of my thread changed when the title of Sola Fide's thread about Arminians hasn't been changed?
    Probably because someone cried about it. And the reason SF's thread isn't changed is probably because Arminians haven't cried about it.

    Would you Calvies like some cheese with that whine?
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    Was John the Baptist sinning when he called the Pharisees "vipers"?

    Was David sinning when he called God's enemies "brutish men"?

    Was Jesus sinning when he called the Pharisees "Whitewashed tombs"?

    Was Paul sinning when he called the Galatians "anathema"?

    When someone repetitively and stubbornly rejects the truth, and tries to encourage other people to accept the false gospel, "name calling" can be appropriate.
    **yawn**

    I know, I know. You can always find a Bible verse to justify your twisted thinking and actions. I can find just as many that refute yours. And I've already done so in the past, as well as explained the contradictory nature of the Bible so I'm not going to do it again because it bores me to do so.
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    Probably because someone cried about it. And the reason SF's thread isn't changed is probably because Arminians haven't cried about it.

    Would you Calvies like some cheese with that whine?
    Check the vent. I complained to the mods because they changed the title of this thread

    I guarantee you that SF didn't complain about it, since he doesn't want any moderation at all. Maybe one of the other Calvinists did it, but I hope not.
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading

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