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Thread: Libertarian Group Comes Out Against Ron Paul On Russia

  1. #1

    Libertarian Group Comes Out Against Ron Paul On Russia

    Libertarian Group Comes Out Against Ron Paul On Russia

    “Former Congressman Ron Paul, whose views are interpreted by many as wholly representative of the libertarian movement, gets it wrong when he speaks of Crimea’s right to secede,” Students for Liberty’s founder says.

    by Rosie Gray
    March 24, 2014 at 1:43pm EDT




    WASHINGTON — A key young libertarian group is publicly opposing Ron Paul on Ukraine, saying that Paul is wrong to suggest that the United States is to blame for Russia’s actions.

    Alexander McCobin, a co-founder of the group Students for Liberty, put out a statement on Monday criticizing Paul, who has characterized Crimea’s largely unrecognized referendum as a secession and has called for the United States not to act against Russia in this crisis. In the statement, McCobin praises Paul’s son, Kentucky Sen. Rand Paul, for condemning Russia’s actions.

    While it’s important criticize misconduct of the United States and some of its Western allies exacerbating the turmoil in the Middle East over the past two decades, it is also important to remember that there are other aggressors in the world; Russia — with it’s ongoing wars in the Northern Caucasus, the invasion of South Ossetia, and it’s most recent annexation of Crimea — being key among them.

    Former Congressman Ron Paul, whose views are interpreted by many as wholly representative of the libertarian movement, gets it wrong when he speaks of Crimea’s right to secede. Make no mistake about it, Crimea was annexed by Russian military force at gunpoint and its supposedly democratic “referendum” was a farce. Besides a suspiciously high voter turnout with legitimate international observers, the referendum gave Crimeans only two choices — join Russia now or later.

    It’s much too simplistic to solely condemn the US for any kind of geopolitical instability in the world. Non-interventionists that sympathize with Russia by condoning Crimea’s secession and blaming the West for Ukrainian crisis fail to see the larger picture. Putin’s government is one of the least free in the world and is clearly the aggressor in Crimea, as it was even beforehand with its support of the Yanukovych regime that shot and tortured its own citizens on the streets of Kyiv.

    The recent spate of anti-war activists arrested in Russia is just one of many examples that illustrate that the Russian Federation is not a free country and everyone should be very careful with showing sympathies to an autocratic leader such as President Putin.

    In contrast to his father, Senator Rand Paul gets it right by condemning Russian aggression while not subscribing to hawkish calls for military intervention at the same time. It is one thing to not intervene; it is another thing to applaud an autocrat for the sake of blaming our own government.
    Reached by phone, Students for Liberty spokesperson Frederik Roeder said that the group was not calling for U.S. intervention in Ukraine, but that “we think that it’s important to condemn what Russia’s doing.”

    ...
    read more:
    http://www.buzzfeed.com/rosiegray/li...paul-on-russia



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  3. #2
    Stopped reading here.....

    Non-interventionists that sympathize with Russia

  4. #3
    I'm really surprised SFL is standing with Rand on this. I always thought them to be more of a radical group. It's encouraging that McCobin is speaking so glowingly of Rand these days.

  5. #4
    I've always thought SFL to be more left-libertarian and PC. It happens to be sort of aligned with Rand this time but that seems to be more the exception than the rule.
    Last edited by supermario21; 03-24-2014 at 05:14 PM.

  6. #5
    and this is news why? another way to attack ron.? yes!

  7. #6
    Can they please stop calling it "Crimea's secession"? It isn't a secession. Joining Russia is not a secession.

  8. #7
    I had this debate with some YAL members on campus. We really don't know how the secession process occurred. It could have been by force. I really think Ron does himself some harm by jumping for secession the way he is going at it. He does this a lot with some of his beliefs.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by fr33 View Post
    Can they please stop calling it "Crimea's secession"? It isn't a secession. Joining Russia is not a secession.
    Not only that but the popular meme that has become the political platform for debate on the issue is just an outlying aspect of the larger phenomenon.

    As I had mentioned when this first came into scrutiny (which was much, much later than when the issue first developed...like well over a year ago), we're going to see who is whom in the wonderful world of the liberty movement as well as what they are trying to do. Bet on that. So, to me, it's best to stay shush for a while and let the fruit fall from it's trees.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 03-24-2014 at 11:27 PM.



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  11. #9
    I have found that when I find myself disagreeing with RP, the problem is usually a gap in my knowledge or an error in my logic.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    Not only that but the popular meme that has become the political platform for debate on the issue is just an outlying aspect of the larger phenomenon.

    As I had mentioned when this first came into scrutiny (which was much, much later than when the issue first developed...like well over a year ago), we're going to see who is whom in the wonderful world of the liberty movement as well as what they are trying to do. Bet on that. So, to me, it's best to stay shush for a while and let the fruit fall from it's trees.
    I'm confident enough to state that The State, whether Russia or the USA or the EU, will commit crimes against the people.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by fr33 View Post
    Can they please stop calling it "Crimea's secession"? It isn't a secession. Joining Russia is not a secession.
    Why isn't it? When Alabama seceded from the Union, it joined the Confederacy. When Texas seceded from Mexico, it joined the Union. Those were both secessions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You only want the freedoms that will undermine the nation and lead to the destruction of liberty.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Stopped reading here.....
    I stop reading when I see the term "aggressors"...

    Same with the past-tense "aggressed"...

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Why isn't it? When Alabama seceded from the Union, it joined the Confederacy. When Texas seceded from Mexico, it joined the Union. Those were both secessions.
    Not exactly RE: Texas.

    Texas was an independent nation for 9 years before agreeing to join the USA.

    Also, unlike Russian incursion into the Ukraine, the USA did not send and Army of occupation into Texas before Texas decided to join the USA.

    Crimea's "secession" more closely resembles the Anschluss, where Nazi Germany invaded Austria, then allowed the Austrians to "vote" (while under military occupation and observation) for annexation by Germany.
    Last edited by libertariantexas; 03-25-2014 at 06:06 AM.

  16. #14
    This issue is one of the few where I strongly disagree with Ron Paul (and agree with Rand and the SFL group).

    When a large nation invades a small one (and that is exactly what happened in Crimea, despite the fact that the Russian soldiers removed their insignia), then holds a "vote," one has to question the validity of that "vote."

    I would not send troops into Ukraine/Crimea, but the USA and it's allies are right to oppose Putin on this bold faced aggression. Ron actually seems to be endorsing Putin's aggression.

    Ron seems so wrong on this issue that I almost wonder if he is not using this issue to distance himself from Rand for political reasons?

    We know that the media are already trying to smear Rand with some of the things they used against Ron in the past. So maybe they are trying to use this issue to portray Rand as "his own man" and not a clone of Ron Paul?

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    I stop reading when I see the term "aggressors"...

    Same with the past-tense "aggressed"...
    Russia is very clearly an aggressor here. They freaking sent troops into Crimea. Can we please stop forgiving them for doing this?

    Just because we meddled in the affairs of Ukraine doesn't mean it was right for Russia to do so, too!

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by KingNothing View Post
    Russia is very clearly an aggressor here. They freaking sent troops into Crimea. Can we please stop forgiving them for doing this?

    Just because we meddled in the affairs of Ukraine doesn't mean it was right for Russia to do so, too!
    If the USA had done what the Russians did, this entire forum would (rightly) be in an uproar condemning the actions of the USA.

    Why is Putin given a pass on his aggression? Putin is just as much an aggressor against the Ukraine as Hitler was against Austria during the Anschluss or against the Sudetenland. He's more aggressive than Bush was against Iraq (a move which almost every libertarian rightly condemned)- at least Bush didn't try to annex Iraq.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by libertariantexas View Post
    If the USA had done what the Russians did, this entire forum would (rightly) be in an uproar condemning the actions of the USA.

    Why is Putin given a pass on his aggression? Putin is just as much an aggressor against the Ukraine as Hitler was against Austria during the Anschluss or against the Sudetenland. He's more aggressive than Bush was against Iraq (a move which almost every libertarian rightly condemned)- at least Bush didn't try to annex Iraq.
    If this is aggression, where are the dead bodies?

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by supermario21 View Post
    I've always thought SFL to be more left-libertarian and PC.
    Trotskyite-libertarian?

    Quote Originally Posted by satchelmcqueen View Post
    and this is news why? another way to attack ron.? yes!
    You got it.
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    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by libertariantexas View Post
    This issue is one of the few where I strongly disagree with Ron Paul (and agree with Rand and the SFL group).

    When a large nation invades a small one (and that is exactly what happened in Crimea, despite the fact that the Russian soldiers removed their insignia), then holds a "vote," one has to question the validity of that "vote."

    I would not send troops into Ukraine/Crimea, but the USA and it's allies are right to oppose Putin on this bold faced aggression. Ron actually seems to be endorsing Putin's aggression.

    Ron seems so wrong on this issue that I almost wonder if he is not using this issue to distance himself from Rand for political reasons?

    We know that the media are already trying to smear Rand with some of the things they used against Ron in the past. So maybe they are trying to use this issue to portray Rand as "his own man" and not a clone of Ron Paul?
    Quote Originally Posted by libertariantexas View Post
    If the USA had done what the Russians did, this entire forum would (rightly) be in an uproar condemning the actions of the USA.

    Why is Putin given a pass on his aggression? Putin is just as much an aggressor against the Ukraine as Hitler was against Austria during the Anschluss or against the Sudetenland. He's more aggressive than Bush was against Iraq (a move which almost every libertarian rightly condemned)- at least Bush didn't try to annex Iraq.
    Putin is clearly wrong, but I kind of feel like its not my country and thus not really my issue. I was a little uncomfortable with Rand's rhetoric on the issue. Obviously I know Rand is just appeasing the more "hawkish" elements of the country rather than actively seeking war with Putin, but I was still uncomfortable with it.

    By contrast, I agree with those who are criticizing Ron because this obviously wasn't a "fair" vote either.

    US should stay COMPLETELY out of it.
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by libertariantexas View Post
    Crimea's "secession" more closely resembles the Anschluss, where Nazi Germany invaded Austria, then allowed the Austrians to "vote" (while under military occupation and observation) for annexation by Germany.
    Austria's parliament never declared independence from another country and then petitioned Germany to voluntarily join them.

    Crimea did vote for independence, not just in a referendum, but also in their parliament. They then petitioned Russia to be part of the Russian Federation as a constituent republic.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by libertariantexas View Post
    Not exactly RE: Texas.

    Texas was an independent nation for 9 years before agreeing to join the USA.

    Also, unlike Russian incursion into the Ukraine, the USA did not send and Army of occupation into Texas before Texas decided to join the USA.

    Crimea's "secession" more closely resembles the Anschluss, where Nazi Germany invaded Austria, then allowed the Austrians to "vote" (while under military occupation and observation) for annexation by Germany.
    That's because Texas was already trying to join the Union voluntarily for YEARS.

  25. #22
    Ron Paul has finally found a modern day foreign intervention he can support?

    Somehow, I can't imagine he'd be cool with the same thing had the U.S. did it.

  26. #23
    Let's nip this childish garbage in the bud and take a gander at what one of the grown ups in this field has to say (numerous hyperlinks found at LRC):

    https://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog...l/#more-482622

    How unfortunate that Alexander McCobin, president of Students for Liberty (SFL), decided to write an attack piece on Ron Paul’s non-interventionism while echoing neocon warmongering over the recent referendum held in Crimea. It seems quite a strange move for an organization founded to capitalize on Ron Paul’s groundbreaking 2008 run for the presidency, which brought in masses of young people electrified by Dr. Paul’s message of peace and prosperity.

    Why would McCobin want to alienate rank and file Students for Liberty members, who overwhelmingly support Ron Paul? It’s not smart to alienate your base. No wonder his organization quickly took to Twitter to back down from his screed, explaining that, “This is just a statement by individuals — SFL doesn’t have an official stance on foreign policy.”

    What is particularly ironic about McCobin’s lecture to Ron Paul on Crimea is that his bill of particulars is so riddled with analytical and factual errors that it actually argues quite eloquently for the opposite of what was intended. In other words his deeply flawed battle cry actually makes Dr. Paul’s case for non-interventionism. If you do not understand what is going on overseas, you should refrain from telling the people there what to do.

    So what about McCobin’s assertion that Ron Paul “gets it wrong” on Crimea?

    First, he condemns Dr. Paul’s view that anyone or any group should have the right to secede from any other group with which they seek to disassociate. This is a problem for McCobin’s brand of libertarianism? Besides being enshrined in international law, one would assume it is basic libertarian thinking that forced association is antithetical to liberty.

    He then flatly asserts that, “Crimea was annexed by Russian military force at gunpoint.” But he provides no evidence for his very conclusive assertion. Perhaps he is unaware that Russia and Ukraine had a treaty whereby 25,000 Russian troops were allowed basing rights on Crimea. How can you annex and invade a territory in which you are already legally present? What does he mean?

    Does he claim that Russia exceeded this number of allowable troops? No one else has suggested this, not even the Ukrainians. Is he saying the Russians used violence to force the vote to go Russia’s way? Again, without evidence this is mighty thin. We know what an invasion looks like — it’s called shock and awe and it happened eleven years ago this month, in the US illegal invasion of Iraq. It happened fifteen years ago this month over the skies of Serbia, another illegal US attack.

    If it had happened earlier this month in Crimea would we not have video? Everyone has cell phones these days.

    Surely if the referendum had been taken at gunpoint we would have seen evidence of those on the receiving end. Or does the writer wish us to believe that the Russian military rounded up more than 80 percent of the population and forced 93% of those to vote in favor of joining Russia without having to shoot a single Crimean? That sounds like a pretty wild conspiracy theory.

    Perhaps McCobin is simply unfamiliar with what an election at gunpoint actually looks like. As a long-time election monitor in places like civil war-torn Albania (1997), violent Montenegro (1998), and elsewhere, I can attest to the fact that elections at gunpoint produce casualties. Often many casualties.

    Moving on, he claimed the vote was a “farce” because the turnout was suspiciously high and presumably too many people were in favor of splitting from Ukraine. However, the historical record demonstrates that in similar votes dealing with issues of sovereignty and identity, the outcome is actually quite similar. No red flags here. But he seemed so sure…

    It was also a farce, he was certain, because “the referendum gave Crimeans only two choices — join Russia now or later.” That may have been his reading of the referendum but was that really the case?

    The actual questions were rather more different than he claims. It is true that the status quo was not offered as an option, but voters did face two quite different choices:

    1) “Are you in favour of unifying Crimea with Russia as a part of the Russian Federation?”

    2) “Are you in favour of restoring the 1992 constitution and the status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine?”

    And incidentally there was a third, unwritten, option: stay home. Although admittedly there appears to have been no minimum threshold for legitimacy, a turnout of far below 50% would have sent a strong message of opposition to the process. Even if there had been some ballot box stuffing, we have failed to see the kind of massive fraud that even a limited observer mission would have uncovered were this the case. There were 135 international observers and over a thousand local ones, surely something beyond minor glitches would have been noticed.

    McCobin decries those who are “blaming the West for the Ukrainian crisis,” but does he deny US meddling in Ukraine’s affairs? Does he deny the evidence that the US had been pushing regime change in Ukraine for years? Did he miss the Nuland/Pyatt phone call? Did he miss McCain in the streets offering US support to those whose intent was the overthrow of a legally-elected government.

    Did he not bother to look at the millions of dollars the US government spent to stage the Orange Revolution 2.0?

    Finally, he writes:

    Putin’s government is one of the least free in the world and is clearly the aggressor in Crimea.

    The link he provides above is more telling than he may realize: it is to the US government funded and CIA-connected Freedom House, which until not long ago had been run by former CIA director and arch-neocon James Woolsey — who now runs the hyper-neocon Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. Does McCobin really trust their judgment? And if so, what does it say about his?

    He finishes with a final mistake, referring to:

    …the Yanukovych regime that shot and tortured its own citizens on the streets of Kyiv.

    Well we have known for weeks, thanks to another intercepted telephone call, that the mysterious snipers had fired on both demonstrators and policemen, apparently to foment chaos and provide a provocation for the violent coup that followed. The Estonian foreign minister told EU foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton that his investigation in Kiev led him to conclude that it must have been the opposition that hired the snipers to discredit the Yanukovich government.

    So much for that argument.

    McCobin implies that Dr. Paul’s non-interventionism is motivated somehow by “sympathy” for Russia. But it is an old neocon trick to defame opponents of war and intervention by claiming they are “supporters” of the designated US enemy of the day. When Dr. Paul opposed the US attack on Iraq, he was derided as an “apologist” for Saddam Hussein. Likewise with Libya, he was “pro-Gaddafi.”

    What the neocons will never admit — it must cause them too much pain — is that Dr. Paul was right to oppose the calls to war then, just as he is right to oppose the call to war now. The neocons argued that a few bombs would turn Iraq and Libya and Syria, etc. into model democracies. How is that working out?

    Recognizing that the US foreign policy of endless meddling and intervention has consequences overseas does not mark one a sympathizer of a foreign regime. It is basic logic.

    Speaking of regime sympathizers, the president of the Students for Liberty is also a member of Young Voices Advocates, an organization that has been honored by the US government’s chief regime change factory, the National Endowment for Democracy. Young Voices returns the favor, proudly announcing that, “The National Endowment for Democracy (NED), like Young Voices, looks for ways to empower and celebrate young people who are making an impact on their world.” Joining McCobin at Young Voices is Fred Roeder, SFL’s marketing and communications director. Roeder is actually the Director of Young Voices.

    Imagine the disappointment when the rank and file of the Students for Liberty find out that their leadership attacks Ron Paul, embraces neocon warmongering rhetoric, and is in bed with NED!

    There is good news for these liberty-minded young people, however.

    We at the Ron Paul Institute invite all liberty-minded students and young people to vote with their feet. We welcome the exodus of peace and prosperity-minded SFL members and will provide a happy home at the Ron Paul Institute. We are in the process of designing programs to incorporate such people into our mission of promoting Ron Paul’s philosophy of civil liberty protection at home and non-interventionism overseas and we would love to have your input and participation. Drop us a line.

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    Perhaps the most important lesson from Obamacare is that while liberty is lost incrementally, it cannot be regained incrementally. The federal leviathan continues its steady growth; sometimes boldly and sometimes quietly. Obamacare is just the latest example, but make no mistake: the statists are winning. So advocates of liberty must reject incremental approaches and fight boldly for bedrock principles.
    The epitome of libertarian populism

  27. #24
    I started a thread on this where someone on anti-war replied to this group as well. Suffice it to say that SFL is run and sponsored by the Koch's. Crony Libertarians trying to steal the youth from YAL. Here is the thread i started:

    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...t-About-Crimea

    quick excerpt:

    He’s the "president" of a Koch front group with lots of money and very few activist members who had "come to Washington on a Charles Koch Institute fellowship," according to Dave Weigel. The Kochs, in spite of their popular reputation, have long since given up pushing a libertarian agenda; and foreign policy is the very least of their concerns. They never gave Ron Paul a dime, and their paid minions trash-talked him at every opportunity.

    When the Campaign for Liberty, the Paul organization, founded a youth group the Kochtopus quickly jumped in with SFL – which never amounted to any real competition because it concentrated mainly on staging a series of expensive conferences, with generous scholarships and students flown in from all over the world. Like all Koch Astroturf outfits, this one is run from the top, and while there’s plenty of debate – indeed, SFL is little more than a debating society – there’s less democracy than in Putin’s Russia, which at least goes through the motions of holding elections.



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