To my Protestant brothers and sisters on the forum.

[RJB]

I'm not knocking yours or Pete's experience. I'm just saying it's not everyone's.

It does vary from parish to parish. The Catholic Church I went to when I first became a Christian was VERY good.

I moved to a pretty liberal area. I volunteered to teach and the curriculum was more as you describe than at my last parish. It was more like Psychology Today rather than coming to know Christ. It was heart breaking.

The main push for becoming Orthodox was for my kids to become good Christians. I like the way they teach at our Church.

I can give you the perspective of someone raised Catholic and attending Catholic schools.

[pcosmar]

This is also reasoning from parts to whole. The non-denominationalists at the worship community I grew up in relied mostly on the ministers to interpret scripture. I knew plenty of lay folks who rarely or never read the bible.

Yup,, this is true.
And they will only read the couple particular verses quoted,, and not the whole Book.

I am not targeting Roman or Eastern Catholics,, though it seems that discussion here is along that line. ( thanks to past antagonism)

Any Church.. can be the focal point aside from Christ.. the idea (even if not stated as such) that the church will save you.
or that the teachings of men are above or equal to the Word of God.

This is error.

[RJB]

I agree. I thought you were directing it at me from something I said in this thread. I was wondering if something I wrote inspired you to write this. If this thread just happens to be the place you decided to post this for whatever reason, I really don't have an argument with you.

Yup,, this is true.
And they will only read the couple particular verses quoted,, and not the whole Book.

I am not targeting Roman or Eastern Catholics,, though it seems that discussion here is along that line. ( thanks to past antagonism)

Any Church.. can be the focal point aside from Christ.. the idea (even if not stated as such) that the church will save you.
or that the teachings of men are above or equal to the Word of God.

This is error.

[mosquitobite]

I'm not knocking yours or Pete's experience. I'm just saying it's not everyone's.

It does vary from parish to parish. The Catholic Church I went to when I first became a Christian was VERY good.

I moved to a pretty liberal area. I volunteered to teach and the curriculum was more as you describe than at my last parish. It was more like Psychology Today rather than coming to know Christ. It was heart breaking.

The main push for becoming Orthodox was for my kids to become good Christians. I like the way they teach at our Church.

Here's the thing - with a non-denominational church - we're only responsible for our own membership. There is no hierarchy.

Since there IS a hierarchy in the Catholic church I feel like there are two options - either my experience is the one they expect most Catholics to get - OR they should be finding the parishes that are failing (I would hazard a guess that declining membership is a good sign of it) and helping them correct teaching to what you are saying is the typical and correct experience.

If the Pope thinks, like you do, that the Catholic churches should be encouraging a deeper relationship with Christ, reading the Bible, and learning & growing in what it means exactly to "follow Him" then they need to do a better job of policing their dioceses.

If they don't [police it], then you can expect more experiences like mine and people failing away. If they don't [police it], how can you all NOT see that as a failure of the Church?

[pcosmar]

I agree. I thought you were directing it at me from something I said in this thread.

I really don't have an argument with you.

Nope,, and i have none with you.

it was just the title of the thread.

To my Protestant brothers and sisters on the forum.

I am not protesting..

and this is why I sometimes refer to myself as a "druidic Christian".. (a tongue in cheek reference)

I have no particular religion,, beyond being a believer in Christ, and a student of the Word.

I am not baptist,,or protestant, or catholic (except in the universal believer sense).

[heavenlyboy34]

Yup,, this is true.
And they will only read the couple particular verses quoted,, and not the whole Book.

I am not targeting Roman or Eastern Catholics,, though it seems that discussion here is along that line. ( thanks to past antagonism)

Any Church.. can be the focal point aside from Christ.. the idea (even if not stated as such) that the church will save you.
or that the teachings of men are above or equal to the Word of God.

This is error.

We are in complete agreement here. The teachings of the saints and apostles clarify things, but they are certainly not above God.

[heavenlyboy34]

Here's the thing - with a non-denominational church - we're only responsible for our own membership. There is no hierarchy.

Since there IS a hierarchy in the Catholic church I feel like there are two options - either my experience is the one they expect most Catholics to get - OR they should be finding the parishes that are failing (I would hazard a guess that declining membership is a good sign of it) and helping them correct teaching to what you are saying is the typical and correct experience.

If the Pope thinks, like you do, that the Catholic churches should be encouraging a deeper relationship with Christ, reading the Bible, and learning & growing in what it means exactly to "follow Him" then they need to do a better job of policing their dioceses.

If they don't [police it], then you can expect more experiences like mine and people failing away. If they don't [police it], how can you all NOT see that as a failure of the Church?

Are you sure? In the non-denominational church I grew up in, there were senior ministers, assistant ministers, music ministers, pastors, and many more with varying degrees of authority.

[erowe1]

On further reflection, I guess I'm not either.

Neither am I.

[mosquitobite]

Are you sure? In the non-denominational church I grew up in, there were senior ministers, assistant ministers, music ministers, pastors, and many more with varying degrees of authority.

Sure there's a lineage of authority.

But the senior pastor is the one in charge. And he doesn't have any power over another church. Just our own.

Regardless, you're missing my point.

If my experience is not the normal or correct Catholic experience - then there is a failure of hierarchy somewhere. And if I am now Protestant, I guess that is what I am protesting.

[Dr.3D]

Neither am I.

Nor am I.

I thought this thread was for Protestants so I didn't say anything.

[heavenlyboy34]

I go to a mega-church with 20,000 members. EVERY.SINGLE.WEEK they encourage us to take out the Bibles in the pew in front of us and read during the sermon and they encourage us to read throughout the week and join bible studies as well. They tell us regularly that if we don't have a Bible to please take the one from the pews!

There is a difference between CINA (Christians in name only) not reading the Bible and the systemic failure of a church that does not encourage it. In my Catholic church there was always a hymnal and the monthly bulletin (I believe this is either done by archdiocese or above - so it would not just be one parish).

There comes a point when you have to ask "what can the Church do better to make sure souls are saved" - and allowing people to believe that their baptism as an infant did it all - imo - is blasphemous and quite honestly - damning.

Absolutely! But that's not too far a cry from OSAS, it seems-would you agree?

[heavenlyboy34]

Sure there's a lineage of authority.

But the senior pastor is the one in charge. And he doesn't have any power over another church. Just our own.

Regardless, you're missing my point.

If my experience is not the normal or correct Catholic experience - then there is a failure of hierarchy somewhere. And if I am now Protestant, I guess that is what I am protesting.

Fair enough. But does not the laity have a responsibility to correct priests, bishops, etc when they are in error? They do in the EOC, but I'm not sure about the RCC.

[pcosmar]

and many more with varying degrees of authority.

Authority?

There are gifts,, there are talents.
There are servants.

not so sure of Authority.

No King but Jesus.

[mosquitobite]

Absolutely! But that's not too far a cry from OSAS, it seems-would you agree?

I would say it's similar but not exact.

If pressed, I would say that the Catholic sacrament of Confirmation should and probably would be similar to a Baptist/Protestant baptism. The difference, from my perspective is just mainly splitting hairs, but they are important hairs! You see, I got confirmed. Know why? Because my whole class was, and I got to wear a pretty dress and pick a new name and well - because. I do understand that SOME kids may actually get it and take it seriously - and I completely lay the fault at my own feet that I did not.

Now, in a Baptist/Protestant church there is no "group" no "peer pressure" per se. The only pressure comes when the 8 year old sees everyone else getting Communion and he's not. He wants the juice and cracker too! But in many of those cases, when the adults talk with the child to figure out if they are ready or not - there is a check to make sure it's a valid decision.

Just imagine if I had been deemed "not ready" and had to sit out from the rest of my class getting Confirmed...


So for me, the hair comes down to a single, individual, personal decision with the ability for your heart to say "I want that". Catholic schools do not do it on an individual basis, and for me that takes away from the sacredness of the Sacrament. Now many of you are adult converts, so I understand why your experience is different than mine!

God moves each of our hearts in different ways, at different ages.

So once saved, always saved? Well, if I were to never to have met my husband or stumbled into my current church family - I might still believe I was saved simply because I grew up Catholic and had taken part in the Sacraments. Even though I never went to church or read the Bible. I strived to be "good" and just knew God would reward that. That's the philosophy I had until I opened up the Bible and read for myself.

[mosquitobite]

Authority?

There are gifts,, there are talents.
There are servants.

not so sure of Authority.

No King but Jesus.

You're taking all my + reps tonight pcosmar!

[RJB]

Nor am I.

I thought this thread was for Protestants so I didn't say anything.

Oh for crying out loud! Political correctness. Can't say oriental, it's Asian. Can't say black, it's African American. Can't say protestant, it's 1000 different names...

For all those (whatever the heck you want to call yourselves ) I just want to say... Ah forget it I'm going to share a bottle of wine with my wife and go to bed. Ain't satisfying none of you (fill in your own blank ) people.

[TER]

God will save whomever He wills, for He alone knows the full depths of the heart of a man. For He created man and it is from Him and in Him which we find life and existence. Our being.

And in perfect love taking upon Himself the human nature of man, becoming man, and fully entering into creation in order to save it. To reveal the Father in Heaven and the faith that God is love, and that the New Covenant is now under the law of mercy, forgiveness, and love. Indeed love incarnate in the world, in the Person of Jesus Christ, Who has made this ontologically possible by unifying, restoring it, and elevating our created nature with the divine.

In His blood we find the life of the world, in His body our very resurrection.

In the Holy Eucharist we find the pure and spotless offering of God, His presence with us, and with us "always and until the end of the age.' The hand of the priest may be marred by sin, but the Holy Offering is inviolate. It is our sacred Manna and Bread from Heaven. It is the sustenance and nourishment of our entire being. Our complete being, spiritually and in the flesh. For this we offer praise and thanksgiving, and glorify God Who has not dealt with us harshly, but in mercy and through love saves us and gives eternal love!

Many blessing to you my brother in Christ RJB! May the Lord our God guide you forever in the love and joy and peace of the Holy Spirit, for He is the Giver of Truth and Life and the source of all joy and happiness in the world. And He is stirring you to the Holy Gifts my friend, and to assurance and life and divine communion. For the Comforter has entered the world, and now creation finds assurance and faith in this world and into the next one.

Glory to You, our Lord and Savior, for loving all people and revealing Your great love! And by Your divine goodness and lovingkindness do bestow upon us sinners forgiveness and remission of sins. May You grant us holy and divine communion as well. Keeping true to Your Word and giving those whom love You salvation!

[lilymc]

My main point,,that I have attempted to stress here,,, is to put your Faith in Christ.. and not in any institution.
It is not Faith in a church that saves,, but Faith in Christ.

I can give you the perspective of someone raised Catholic and attending Catholic schools. In my 12 years of Catholic schooling - with 12 separate religion teachers - not once did a single homework assignment require opening the Bible. NOT ONCE!

I was at a political event last week and discussing my high school with a lady who had kids my age that also went to Catholic schools. She herself had been a convert to Catholicism. We were talking about how I go to a non-denominational church now and she was asking me questions about why. When I told her my above observation here was her response...

Of course not! Only priests have gone to school long enough to interpret the Bible. Can you imagine how confusing it would be if we all had our own interpretations? Lay ministers do not have the schooling needed to attempt such a thing! What Catholic schools taught you was prayer.


Now mind you, I'm pretty well able to get along with most people and I'm not antagonistic so I didn't mention that Catholic prayer, other than the Lord's prayer - is simply memorization and repetition. It's not about having a relationship with God or talking to Him. According to the Church, we still need that mediator (priest).

So I then ask her where she goes and she admits its been years since she went to church because the parish she was going to had too many Democrats...

Anyways - so my own personal experience and conversations with people like the lady last week tells me that they believe being Catholic is all that is necessary. The rest - reading the Bible, prayer, attending church, serving, etc - don't really matter. This is the common attitude of all my friends I grew up with as well - so she's not an extreme example.

I couldn't agree more! And mosquito, although I didn't go to Catholic schools, my experience is similar. No one in the RCC ever encouraged me to open up a bible and read it, and nobody told me about salvation. Growing up in our house (because my dad is an atheist and my mom a catholic) the bible was just a dusty book on the shelf that no one ever read.

Thank you for sharing!

[mosquitobite]

Oh for crying out loud! Political correctness. Can't say oriental, it's Asian. Can't say black, it's African American. Can't say protestant, it's 1000 different names...

For all those (whatever the heck you want to call yourselves ) I just want to say... Ah forget it I'm going to share a bottle of wine with my wife and go to bed. Ain't satisfying none of you (fill in your own blank ) people.

From my perspective - the only ones who should be considered truly Protestant are those like me who grew up immersed in the Catholic faith and yet fell away. I can see that as protesting.

The others are really just antagonists.

[Dr.3D]

From my perspective - the only ones who should be considered truly Protestant are those like me who grew up immersed in the Catholic faith and yet fell away. I can see that as protesting.

The others are really just antagonists.

Grrr.... we are members of the small c, catholic church.

[brushfire]

[heavenlyboy34]

Grrr.... we are members of the small c, catholic church.

catholic means "universal". What's universal about y'all? There's what, 5000 heterodox denominations, sects, etc-each claiming to being the sole keepers of The Truth?

[erowe1]

catholic means "universal". What's universal about y'all? There's what, 5000 heterodox denominations, sects, etc?

You can go even further than that. Go right down to however many individual believers they are, each and every one unique. But if their faith is in Christ, then all those unique individuals belong to his one universal catholic Church.

This is how it has always been, from the day this Church began on Pentecost.

As long as those denominations you're talking about are just organizations of local churches for mutual support, without claiming that their organization is the one true Church in its entirety, they're not contradicting that doctrine of the catholic Church.

On the other hand, I do know of some organizations of professing Christians that do claim that their organization is the one true Church in its entirety. These claims really do besmirch the unity and universality of the catholic Church.

Know any organizations like that?

[pcosmar]

Grrr.... we are members of the small c, catholic church.

That is sort of how i see it.. and am wary when anyone claims to be the ONE TRUE CHURCH.

There are seven churches,, and seven angels over them.

"As for the mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches."

ignore this if you wish.. I do not.

[Dr.3D]

catholic means "universal". What's universal about y'all? There's what, 5000 heterodox denominations, sects, etc-each claiming to being the sole keepers of The Truth?

Sigh... universal.... the Christian church is universal. All Christians are members of the universal Christian church.

[heavenlyboy34]

Authority?

There are gifts,, there are talents.
There are servants.

not so sure of Authority.

No King but Jesus.

Who claimed otherwise? Church/ecclesiastical governance has very strict boundaries, which are checked by the laity (at least, they are in RC and EO parishes. In ecclesiastical communities, people just leave when they get sick of the minister/pastor/etc) None of these are anything like monarchies.

~hugs~

[heavenlyboy34]

Sigh... universal.... the Christian church is universal. All Christians are members of the universal Christian church.

Ducking the question! :P What's universal about thousands of different belief systems-many drastically different?

[Dr.3D]

Ducking the question! :P What's universal about thousands of different belief systems-many drastically different?

That's easy, the universal thing is, we are all Christians.

[heavenlyboy34]

That's easy, the universal thing is, we are all Christians.

Actually, that's not so easy. As I mentioned before, there are thousands of heterodox definitions of "Christian", and they each tend to look down on each other. For example, I've known people who don't consider Mormons to be Christians. If there's no agreement on what the C-word even means, there's no universality there.

[Dr.3D]

Actually, that's not so easy. As I mentioned before, there are thousands of heterodox definitions of "Christian", and they each tend to look down on each other. For example, I've known people who don't consider Mormons to be Christians. If there's no agreement on what the C-word even means, there's no universality there.

Who are we to say they are wrong?

How about we all agree that we are all Christians and go with that?