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Thread: Structure in the Church- Quotes from the Church Fathers

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    Structure in the Church- Quotes from the Church Fathers

    Structure in the Church-Quotes from the Church Fathers



    Ignatius

    "Now, therefore, it has been my privilege to see you in the person of your God-inspired bishop, Damas; and in the persons of your worthy presbyters, Bassus and Apollonius; and my fellow-servant, the deacon, Zotion. What a delight is his company! For he is subject to the bishop as to the grace of God, and to the presbytery as to the law of Jesus Christ" (Letter to the Magnesians 2 [A.D. 110]).


    "Take care to do all things in harmony with God, with the bishop presiding in the place of God, and with the presbyters in the place of the council of the apostles, and with the deacons, who are most dear to me, entrusted with the business of Jesus Christ, who was with the Father from the beginning and is at last made manifest" (ibid., 6:1).


    "Take care, therefore, to be confirmed in the decrees of the Lord and of the apostles, in order that in everything you do, you may prosper in body and in soul, in faith and in love, in Son and in Father and in Spirit, in beginning and in end, together with your most reverend bishop; and with that fittingly woven spiritual crown, the presbytery; and with the deacons, men of God. Be subject to the bishop and to one another as Jesus Christ was subject to the Father, and the apostles were subject to Christ and to the Father; so that there may be unity in both body and spirit" (ibid., 13:1–2).


    "Indeed, when you submit to the bishop as you would to Jesus Christ, it is clear to me that you are living not in the manner of men but as Jesus Christ, who died for us, that through faith in his death you might escape dying. It is necessary, therefore—and such is your practice that you do nothing without the bishop, and that you be subject also to the presbytery, as to the apostles of Jesus Christ our hope, in whom we shall be found, if we live in him. It is necessary also that the deacons, the dispensers of the mysteries [sacraments] of Jesus Christ, be in every way pleasing to all men. For they are not the deacons of food and drink, but servants of the Church of God. They must therefore guard against blame as against fire" (Letter to the Trallians 2:1–3 [A.D. 110]).


    "In like manner let everyone respect the deacons as they would respect Jesus Christ, and just as they respect the bishop as a type of the Father, and the presbyters as the council of God and college of the apostles. Without these, it cannot be called a church. I am confident that you accept this, for I have received the exemplar of your love and have it with me in the person of your bishop. His very demeanor is a great lesson and his meekness is his strength. I believe that even the godless do respect him" (ibid., 3:1–2).


    "He that is within the sanctuary is pure; but he that is outside the sanctuary is not pure. In other words, anyone who acts without the bishop and the presbytery and the deacons does not have a clear conscience" (ibid., 7:2).


    "I cried out while I was in your midst, I spoke with a loud voice, the voice of God: ‘Give heed to the bishop and the presbytery and the deacons.’ Some suspect me of saying this because I had previous knowledge of the division certain persons had caused; but he for whom I am in chains is my witness that I had no knowledge of this from any man. It was the Spirit who kept preaching these words, ‘Do nothing without the bishop, keep your body as the temple of God, love unity, flee from divisions, be imitators of Jesus Christ, as he was imitator of the Father’" (Letter to the Philadelphians 7:1–2 [A.D. 110]).



    Clement of Alexandria

    "Even here in the Church the gradations of bishops, presbyters, and deacons happen to be imitations, in my opinion, of the angelic glory and of that arrangement which, the scriptures say, awaits those who have followed in the footsteps of the apostles and who have lived in complete righteousness according to the gospel" (Miscellanies 6:13:107:2 [A.D. 208]).



    Hippolytus

    When a deacon is to be ordained, he is chosen after the fashion of those things said above, the bishop alone in like manner imposing his hands upon him as we have prescribed. In the ordaining of a deacon, this is the reason why the bishop alone is to impose his hands upon him: he is not ordained to the priesthood, but to serve the bishop and to fulfill the bishop’s command. He has no part in the council of the clergy, but is to attend to his own duties and is to acquaint the bishop with such matters as are needful. . . .


    "On a presbyter, however, let the presbyters impose their hands because of the common and like Spirit of the clergy. Even so, the presbyter has only the power to receive [the Spirit], and not the power to give [the Spirit]. That is why a presbyter does not ordain the clergy; for at the ordaining of a presbyter, he but seals while the bishop ordains.


    "Over a deacon, then, let the bishop speak thus: ‘O God, who have created all things and have set them in order through your Word; Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, whom you sent to minister to your will and to make clear to us your desires, grant the Holy Spirit of grace and care and diligence to this your servant, whom you have chosen to serve the Church and to offer in your holy places the gifts which are offered to you by your chosen high priests, so that he may serve with a pure heart and without blame, and that, ever giving praise to you, he may be accounted by your good will as worthy of this high office: through your Son Jesus Christ, through whom be glory and honor to you, to the Father and the Son with the Holy Spirit, in your holy Church, both now and through the ages of ages. Amen’" (The Apostolic Tradition 9 [A.D. 215]).



    Origen

    "Not fornication only, but even marriages make us unfit for ecclesiastical honors; for neither a bishop, nor a presbyter, nor a deacon, nor a widow is able to be twice married" (Homilies on Luke17 [A.D. 234]).



    St John Chrysostom

    : "[In Philippians 1:1 Paul says,] ‘To the co-bishops and deacons.’ What does this mean? Were there plural bishops of some city? Certainly not! It is the presbyters that [Paul] calls by this title; for these titles were then interchangeable, and the bishop is even called a deacon. That is why, when writing to Timothy, he says, ‘Fulfill your diaconate’ [2 Tim. 4:5], although Timothy was then a bishop. That he was in fact a bishop is clear when Paul says to him, ‘Lay hands on no man lightly’ [1 Tim. 5:22], and again, ‘Which was given you with the laying on of hands of the presbytery’ [1 Tim. 4:14], and presbyters would not have ordained a bishop" (Homilies on Philippians 1:1 [A.D. 402]).



    The Councils:

    Council of Elvira

    "Bishops, presbyters, and deacons may not leave their own places for the sake of commerce, nor are they to be traveling about the provinces, frequenting the markets for their own profit. Certainly for the procuring of their own necessities they can send a boy or a freedman or a hireling or a friend or whomever, but, if they wish to engage in business, let them do so within the province" (Canon 18 [A.D. 300]).


    Council of Nicaea I

    "It has come to the knowledge of the holy and great synod that, in some districts and cities, the deacons administer the Eucharist to the presbyters [i.e., priests], whereas neither canon nor custom permits that they who have no right to offer [the Eucharistic sacrifice] should give the Body of Christ to them that do offer [it]. And this also has been made known, that certain deacons now touch the Eucharist even before the bishops. Let all such practices be utterly done away, and let the deacons remain within their own bounds, knowing that they are the ministers of the bishop and the inferiors of the presbyters. Let them receive the Eucharist according to their order, after the presbyters, and let either the bishop or the presbyter administer to them" (Canon 18 [A.D. 325]).
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    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ



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  3. #2
    bump for FF to read and study, as these are writings of Saints from the first 3 centuries and it is to our benefit to read them with humility and open minds.
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    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    bump for FF to read and study, as these are writings of Saints from the first 3 centuries and it is to our benefit to read them with humility and open minds.
    OK, what's your point? What point are you trying to prove here?

    I'm not going to read them because I don't view these people as being authoritative. So, just because Ignatius said such and such a thing doesn't make it true.

    Wasn't Clement of Alexandria a Universalist heretic? Or am I thinking of someone else?
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  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    OK, what's your point? What point are you trying to prove here?

    I'm not going to read them because I don't view these people as being authoritative. So, just because Ignatius said such and such a thing doesn't make it true.

    Wasn't Clement of Alexandria a Universalist heretic? Or am I thinking of someone else?
    Why is it that you do not view these people as being authoratative?
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    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  6. #5
    Look at the quotes above by St. Ignatius. He clearly writes about the Office of the Bishop, the Priests, and the Deacons. He was a disciple of St. John the Evangelist. He was alive before the New Testament was even completed. He succeeded St. Peter as Bishop of Antioch. He was martyred for the faith in the Roman Colluseum. And he is not 'authoratative' enough for you? You consider yourself more knowledgable about the apostolic faith then him? Do you not see the hubris in what you are saying?

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    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  7. #6
    I still don't even know for sure whether Ignatius is using the term "Bishop" the same way that you use it. If he is, than yes, he's wrong.
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  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    I still don't even know for sure whether Ignatius is using the term "Bishop" the same way that you use it.
    He is using it the same way I am using it and the same way the Church is using.

    If he is, than yes, he's wrong
    Why?
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    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post



    Why?
    Because 1 Timothy 3 mentions only two types of church offices, pastor (or bishop), and deacon. The former group were teachers of God's Word, while the latter group were to serve. Your Church, along with the RCC, invented a third office for some reason.
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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    Because 1 Timothy 3 mentions only two types of church offices, pastor (or bishop), and deacon. The former group were teachers of God's Word, while the latter group were to serve. Your Church, along with the RCC, invented a third office for some reason.
    But I have explained to you that your interpretation is in error and not consistent with what the Scriptures say nor what the early Church believed and practiced. St. Peter was Bishop of Antioch. Many of the Apostles became Bishops. St. Ignatius succeed St. Peter. But you still ignore these things because (you think) it is expedient for you to ignore these things. But now that you have heard these things, you have no excuse for your ignorance other then your pride, and for this you will need to give an account. It would be better if you hadn't heard these things, at least you could make that excuse, and this is probably why you wilfully try to shut it out. But God is not fooled and has already warned what He will do to lukewarm followers.
    Last edited by TER; 02-13-2014 at 01:35 PM.
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    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    But I have explained to you that your interpretation is in error and not consistent with what the Scriptures say nor what the early Church believed and practiced. St. Peter was Bishop of Antioch. Many of the Apostles became Bishops. St. Ignatius succeed St. Peter. But you still ignore these things because (you think) it is expedient for you to ignore these things. But now that you have heard these things, you have no excuse for your ignorance other then your pride, and for this you will need to give an account. It would be better if you hadn't heard these things, at least you could make that excuse, and this is probably why you wilfully try to shut it out. But God is not fooled and has already warned what He will do to lukewarm followers.
    Where does the Bible teach that St. Peter was the bishop of Antioch? Even if he were, why would it matter? Peter was an Apostle. The Apostles, Biblically, were people who had seen the resurrected Christ face to face. John the Apostle's death marked the end of that office.
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  13. #11
    At that, where does the Bible say that not hearing is an excuse? You just made that up.
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  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    Where does the Bible teach that St. Peter was the bishop of Antioch? Even if he were, why would it matter? Peter was an Apostle. The Apostles, Biblically, were people who had seen the resurrected Christ face to face. John the Apostle's death marked the end of that office.
    Where does it say in the Old Testament that the prophets spoke of the Messiah being a Nazarene? Sola Fide wishes to ignore this question. Perhaps you can answer it for him?

    And the bones of St. Peter are located in Rome, and the hagiography and historical writings and oral traditions of the Church is how we know today that St. Peter was Bishop of Rome. You miss out on the beauty and the fullness of the faith because you have isolated your entire theology on your mind's interpretation of the Scriptures. But your mind is falliable, and much more so then those of the Fathers of the Church.

    And this idea that John the Apostle's death marked the end of the office is a slap to the face of God and blasphemy towards the Holy Spirit to suggest that His Body would be so weak to disappear (or go hidden, as some modern Calvinists fantasize). The reality is that the Church has never left, the gates of hell has never overcome the Church, and the eucharistic communion of the saints has never been extinguished. Never a Lord's Day has gone by since the Day of Pentecost that the faithful did not share in eucharist worship, partaking of His Holy Gifts.
    Last edited by TER; 02-13-2014 at 01:52 PM.
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    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    Where does it say in the Old Testament that the prophets spoke of the Messiah being a Nazarene? Sola Fide wishes to ignore this question. Perhaps you can answer it for him?
    I don't know the answer.

    And the bones of St. Peter are located in Rome, and the hagiography and historical writings and oral traditions of the Church is how we know today that St. Peter was Bishop of Rome. You miss out on the beauty and the fullness of the faith because you have isolated your entire theology on your mind's interpretation of the Scriptures. But your mind is falliable, and much more so then those of the Fathers of the Church.
    So you worship their minds. Got it.
    And this idea that John the Apostle's death marked the end of the office is a slap to the face of God and blasphemy towards the Holy Spirit to suggest that His Body would be so weak to disappear (or go hidden, as some modern Calvinists fantasize). The reality is that the Church has never left, the gates of hell has never overcome the Church, and the eucharistic communion of the saints has never been extinguished.
    OK, if you think I've blasphemed the Holy Spirit, the Bible says I can't be forgiven anyway, so why bother having this conversation?

    The rest of this was pure emotionalism with no scripture, and thus, not worthy of being addressed.
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  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    I don't know the answer.
    The answer is Oral Tradition.


    So you worship their minds. Got it.
    No, I don't worship their minds. I worship the Holy Spirit working within the Church.

    OK, if you think I've blasphemed the Holy Spirit, the Bible says I can't be forgiven anyway, so why bother having this conversation?
    Because I care about you and your salvation and you are still young and ignorant about many things. If I (a mere sinner) can forgive you on account of these things, so can God.
    Last edited by TER; 02-13-2014 at 02:39 PM.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  17. #15
    Because I care about you and your salvation and you are still young and ignorant about many things. If I (a mere sinner) can forgive you on account of these things, so can God.



    The Bible says that those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit can't be forgiven. So, if I did that (which, I didn't) there would be no point in you having this conversation, because it would mean I couldn't be forgiven.

    For the record, I do know God, just not your god.
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  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    The Bible says that those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit can't be forgiven. So, if I did that (which, I didn't) there would be no point in you having this conversation, because it would mean I couldn't be forgiven.

    For the record, I do know God, just not your god.
    Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is not a one time event, it is the continual refusal to accept the salvation which God offers to man through the Holy Spirit, working through the power of the Cross.



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  20. #17
    For any who are interested, here is a great article regarding the place of the Eucharist, the Bishop and the understanding of the Church in the first three centuries.

    EUCHARIST, BISHOP, CHURCH: THE UNITY OF THE CHURCH IN THE DIVINE EUCHARIST AND THE BISHOP DURING THE FIRST THREE CENTURIES
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    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by eduardo89 View Post
    Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is not a one time event, it is the continual refusal to accept the salvation which God offers to man through the Holy Spirit, working through the power of the Cross.
    Then TER is lying when he says I'm blaspheming the Holy Spirit (For what its worth, I actually pretty much agree with you for once.)
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  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    Then TER is lying when he says I'm blaspheming the Holy Spirit (For what its worth, I actually pretty much agree with you for once.)
    To deny the good work of the Holy Spirit is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. Jesus' rebuke in the Bible was on account of people denying God's good grace, that is, the divine activity of God working in and upon creation (the work of the Holy Spirit). To deny the Son can be forgiven (as Christ said) because of ignorance and such, but to deny the good grace of the Holy Spirit working in the world is unforgivable because it is not out of ignorance or foolishness but out of the evil in the heart which causes one to deny the good workings of God within creation.
    Last edited by TER; 02-13-2014 at 03:19 PM.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    Then TER is lying when he says I'm blaspheming the Holy Spirit (For what its worth, I actually pretty much agree with you for once.)
    I've given that exact definition before and you said it was heretical.

    There is a difference, though, of blaspheming the Holy Spirit and the unforgivable sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Insulting or denigrating the Holy Spirit's power certainly is a sin, but it can be forgiven, whereas the unforgivable continual sin is unforgivable if at your death you continue committing it.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by eduardo89 View Post
    I've given that exact definition before and you said it was heretical.

    There is a difference, though, of blaspheming the Holy Spirit and the unforgivable sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Insulting or denigrating the Holy Spirit's power certainly is a sin, but it can be forgiven, whereas the unforgivable continual sin is unforgivable if at your death you continue committing it.
    Yes, that should be clarified. Thank you Eduardo. There is NO sin that God cannot forgive if the repentance is sincere, even blaspheming of the Holy Spirit. Think about St. Paul. He persecuted Christians and likely was complicit in their deaths, yet he is amongst one of the greatest saints in the Kingdom. The acts of blaspheme can be forgiven if the heart changes. But if the heart remains full of evil and hatred against the Holy Spirit, the same evil in the heart which instigates and feeds the blaspheme, then there can be no forgiveness, for it is life itself which the evil heart rejects.
    Last edited by TER; 02-13-2014 at 03:29 PM.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by eduardo89 View Post
    Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is not a one time event, it is the continual refusal to accept the salvation which God offers to man through the Holy Spirit, working through the power of the Cross.
    No. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with "refusing to accept" salvation. What a complete misunderstanding. Do you even read the Bible to see what the verses actually say?

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by eduardo89 View Post
    I've given that exact definition before and you said it was heretical.
    Link? Sola said the same thing in this case, so I'm curious why.

    There is a difference, though, of blaspheming the Holy Spirit and the unforgivable sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Insulting or denigrating the Holy Spirit's power certainly is a sin, but it can be forgiven, whereas the unforgivable continual sin is unforgivable if at your death you continue committing it.
    I guess I assumed that any forgivable blasphemy would be considered "against the Son", even if it was technically directed at the Holy Spirit. But maybe I'm wrong.
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  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    No. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with "refusing to accept" salvation. What a complete misunderstanding. Do you even read the Bible to see what the verses actually say?
    If a person continues to stubbornly reject the gospel until he dies, that sin cannot be forgiven. If he repents and believes, he can be forgiven. I don't see the issue with what he said.

    Of course, I believe as do you that only God can cause a person to believe, and that belief is a result of rather than a condition of regeneration. That doesn't change the fact that those who do not believe reject salvation.
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