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Thread: Constitution Check: What does it mean that there is a right to “bear” guns?

  1. #1

    Constitution Check: What does it mean that there is a right to “bear” guns?

    THE STATEMENT AT ISSUE:

    There is “a growing line of court of appeals decisions that, while stopping short of holding that there is no Second Amendment right outside the home, consistently reach the same result by deeming any right to bear arms in public to be, at best, outside the Second Amendment’s ‘core’ and then balancing it away under an anemic form of intermediate scrutiny.”

    – Charles J. Cooper, a Washington, D.C., attorney for the National Rifle Association, in a brief filed at the Supreme Court on Monday, urging the Justices to strike down a law that bans minors from carrying a handgun in public, beyond the home.

    WE CHECKED THE CONSTITUTION, AND…

    The Second Amendment, at its core, spells out not one, but two, rights when it protects “the right of the people.” There is a right to “keep” a gun, there is a right, to “bear” a gun. There is an “and” between the two in the text, so that might well be taken as a significant indication that these are separate rights.

    The Supreme Court in 2008 made it clear that the right to “keep” a gun is a personal right, and that it means one has a right to keep a functioning firearm for self-defense within the home. But it has refused repeatedly since then to take on the question of whether that right exists also outside the home. If there is a separate right to “bear” a gun (and the Court, in fact, did say in 2008 that the two rights were separate), it has not said what that means.

    The National Rifle Association, and some of its members, are now pressing the Supreme Court to answer that question. They are doing so in two cases testing whether the federal government and the states can restrict the rights of minors to possess a gun outside the home. The Court is expected to take its first look at those cases later this month, to decide whether it will hear either or both of them. The federal government, once again, is urging the Court to bypass those cases, as it has done with perhaps a half-dozen others seeking clarification of the Second Amendment’s scope.

    In a case from Texas, the NRA’s lawyers have reduced to elementary constitutional logic the question of what a right to “bear” guns means: “The explicit guarantee of the right to ‘bear’ arms would mean nothing,” the NRA’s filing argued, “if it did not protect the right to ‘bear’ arms outside of the home, where the Amendment already guarantees that they may be ‘kept.’ The most fundamental canons of construction forbid any interpretation that would discard this language as meaningless surplus.”

    While the NRA and its lawyers are sharply critical of the lower federal courts for failing to explicitly extend the Second Amendment beyond the confines of one’s home, there have been a couple of breakthrough decisions doing just that. For example, the Seventh U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals based in Chicago did so when it ruled unconstitutional an Illinois law banning the carrying of guns in public, at least when that was for the purpose of self-defense. That decision had seemed headed for the Supreme Court, but the state legislature chose to eliminate the ban and the appeal prospect vanished.

    The lower courts that have declined to enlarge the right have seemed to be convinced that it would be a bold step to do so, and some have suggested that it should be up to the Supreme Court to make the ultimate decision on that point. The Court might be expected to step in to resolve the issue, if it were convinced that there is actually a true split on it among lower courts.

    In the new NRA cases now awaiting the Justices’ attention, separate groups of judges on the Fifth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, based in New Orleans, rejected NRA challenges to the federal and state laws restricting minors’ access to guns. The case involving the Texas law is explicitly about a right to carry a handgun in public, at least for minors. In that state, they may own a handgun, but without a license to carry it in public – for which they are ineligible because of their age – they may have such a weapon only at home.

    One of the reasons why the Justices might find the NRA challenges more appealing cases to review is that, in both, the federal appeals court came very close to creating an entirely new category of individuals ineligible to “bear” arms, merely because of their age. In both of the decisions at issue, the appeals court said it was “likely” that they were not protected at all under the Second Amendment, or under the separate parts of the Constitution that guarantee all individuals equal legal rights.
    http://news.yahoo.com/constitution-c...110205014.html
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  3. #2
    The Second Amendment is perfectly clear. The real issue is that the progressives and totalitarians don't care about the rule of law.
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  4. #3
    LibForestPaul
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The Second Amendment is perfectly clear. The real issue is that the progressives and totalitarians don't care about the rule of law.
    Unfortunately, they are >50% of the pop.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by LibForestPaul View Post
    Unfortunately, they are >50% of the pop.
    And at least that much of the Judicial system...
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  6. #5
    The word "arms" doesn't mean gun, it means arms. I worked at a living history museum depicting life in the 1830's and, if I remember right, average citizens could own the most advanced weaponry of the period - the cannon. So with the thinking that the right includes any and all the weaponry of the day we have the right to own nuclear subs, F18s spy satelites etc. But who afford such extravagance? Only those with their own money press of course

  7. #6
    I thought we were talking about the right to arm bears...
    BEWARE THE CULT OF "GOVERNMENT"

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  8. #7
    Meanwhile most adults of good moral character are prohibited from carrying firearms outside of their home, the NRA wants SCOTUS to answer the question of children being permitted to what they cannot? Am I missing something? Is it not always the best laid plan to put the horse before the cart?

    Additionally, in California for example, juvenile drivers have caused so many problems on the roadway that they are a mere few steps away from the state not longer granting licenses until the age of eighteen has first been obtained. I can only imagine the havoc that would be created by groups of morally dysfunctional children from mostly broken families being permitted to run around armed, presiding with boundless immature street-gang mentalities.
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding one’s self in the ranks of the insane.” — Marcus Aurelius

    They’re not buying it. CNN, you dumb bastards!” — President Trump 2020

    Consilio et Animis de Oppresso Liber

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Weston White View Post
    Meanwhile most adults of good moral character are prohibited from carrying firearms outside of their home, the NRA wants SCOTUS to answer the question of children being permitted to what they cannot? Am I missing something? Is it not always the best laid plan to put the horse before the cart?
    This seemed strange to me also.



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  11. #9
    Weston, you're implying that by not handing out licenses to juveniles, the problem of juvenile speedsters will suddenly cease to exist.

    Even funnier is your assertion that there aren't already dysfunctional children running around with guns. They're called gang members and they've been doing it for quite some time now.

    Either way, I agree with the part that they really should be focusing on the broader issue of whether or not adults can carry outside of their home on a consistent basis before moving onto juveniles.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sister Miriam Godwinson View Post
    We Must Dissent.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianAnarchist View Post
    I thought we were talking about the right to arm bears...
    Nope, right to bare arms. I'll draw you a picture.

    http://media.onsugar.com/files/2011/...Bare_Arm_3.jpg

  13. #11
    Armed bears were quite a problem in the 1780's.

  14. #12
    The Second Amendment, at its core, spells out not one, but two, rights when it protects “the right of the people.” There is a right to “keep” a gun, there is a right, to “bear” a gun. There is an “and” between the two in the text, so that might well be taken as a significant indication that these are separate rights.
    The 2A secures three rights against government intrusion. To bear arms has two meanings: (A) to carry on or about one's person, and (B) Perform military service. The purpose of the militia clause is to ensure both meanings of bear arms are protected.

    The individuals may (A) have any type of arms they wish (B) carry arms with them for personal defense or military service (C) form militias to protect their lives, liberty, and property.
    Out of every one hundred men they send us, ten should not even be here. Eighty will do nothing but serve as targets for the enemy. Nine are real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, upon them depends our success in battle. But one, ah the one, he is a real warrior, and he will bring the others back from battle alive.

    Duty is the most sublime word in the English language. Do your duty in all things. You can not do more than your duty. You should never wish to do less than your duty.

  15. #13
    The way I read the Militia Act of 1792, everyone is supposed to be armed for militia duty except people in government.

    The Militia Act of 1792, Passed May 8, 1792, providing federal standards for the organization of the Militia.

    An ACT more effectually to provide for the National Defence, by establishing an Uniform Militia throughout the United States.

    I. Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, That each and every free able-bodied white male citizen of the respective States, resident therein, who is or shall be of age of eighteen years, and under the age of forty-five years (except as is herein after excepted) shall severally and respectively be enrolled in the militia, by the Captain or Commanding Officer of the company, within whose bounds such citizen shall reside, and that within twelve months after the passing of this Act. And it shall at all time hereafter be the duty of every such Captain or Commanding Officer of a company, to enroll every such citizen as aforesaid, and also those who shall, from time to time, arrive at the age of 18 years, or being at the age of 18 years, and under the age of 45 years (except as before excepted) shall come to reside within his bounds; and shall without delay notify such citizen of the said enrollment, by the proper non-commissioned Officer of the company, by whom such notice may be proved. That every citizen, so enrolled and notified, shall, within six months thereafter, provide himself with a good musket or firelock, a sufficient bayonet and belt, two spare flints, and a knapsack, a pouch, with a box therein, to contain not less than twenty four cartridges, suited to the bore of his musket or firelock, each cartridge to contain a proper quantity of powder and ball; or with a good rifle, knapsack, shot-pouch, and powder-horn, twenty balls suited to the bore of his rifle, and a quarter of a pound of powder; and shall appear so armed, accoutred and provided, when called out to exercise or into service, except, that when called out on company days to exercise only, he may appear without a knapsack. That the commissioned Officers shall severally be armed with a sword or hanger, and espontoon; and that from and after five years from the passing of this Act, all muskets from arming the militia as is herein required, shall be of bores sufficient for balls of the eighteenth part of a pound; and every citizen so enrolled, and providing himself with the arms, ammunition and accoutrements, required as aforesaid, shall hold the same exempted from all suits, distresses, executions or sales, for debt or for the payment of taxes.

    II. And be it further enacted, That the Vice-President of the United States, the Officers, judicial and executives, of the government of the United States; the members of both houses of Congress, and their respective officers; all custom house officers, with the clerks; all post officers, and stage-drivers who are employed in the care and conveyance of the mail of the post office of the United States; all Ferrymen employed at any ferry on the post road; all inspectors of exports; all pilots, all mariners actually employed in the sea service of any citizen or merchant within the United States; and all persons who now are or may be hereafter exempted by the laws of the respective states, shall be and are hereby exempted from militia duty, notwithstanding their being above the age of eighteen and under the age of forty-five years.
    Last edited by Travlyr; 02-14-2014 at 02:43 PM.

  16. #14
    It is not up to ANY court to decide this.
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  17. #15
    rewritten history with armies of their crooks - invented memories, did burn all the books... Mark Knopfler

  18. #16
    That quotation is missing an entire sentence:

    "I. Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, That each and every free able-bodied white male citizen of the respective States, resident therein, who is or shall be of age of eighteen years, and under the age of forty-five years (except as is herein after excepted) shall severally and respectively be enrolled in the militia, by the Captain or Commanding Officer of the company, within whose bounds such citizen shall reside, and that within twelve months after the passing of this Act. ..."
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding one’s self in the ranks of the insane.” — Marcus Aurelius

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    Consilio et Animis de Oppresso Liber



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Spikender View Post
    Weston, you're implying that by not handing out licenses to juveniles, the problem of juvenile speedsters will suddenly cease to exist.

    Even funnier is your assertion that there aren't already dysfunctional children running around with guns. They're called gang members and they've been doing it for quite some time now.

    Either way, I agree with the part that they really should be focusing on the broader issue of whether or not adults can carry outside of their home on a consistent basis before moving onto juveniles.
    Alright, would you also support reducing the drinking age from 21 to 1? And then students of all ages could enjoy a tasty screwdriver or two before their first class, an appletini during their lunch, and a shot or three of scotch along with their homework?
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding one’s self in the ranks of the insane.” — Marcus Aurelius

    They’re not buying it. CNN, you dumb bastards!” — President Trump 2020

    Consilio et Animis de Oppresso Liber

  21. #18
    Check this out if you get a chance.

    Penn and Teller read it and make the words ring like fine crystal.


    The 2nd Amendment

  22. #19
    ...Not to mention that State "rights" had already been addressed in Article IV of the U.S. Constitution and still again in Amendment X of the Bill of Rights.
    Last edited by Weston White; 02-18-2014 at 08:35 PM.
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding one’s self in the ranks of the insane.” — Marcus Aurelius

    They’re not buying it. CNN, you dumb bastards!” — President Trump 2020

    Consilio et Animis de Oppresso Liber

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Weston White View Post
    ...Not to mention that State "rights" had already been addressed in Article IV of the U.S. Constitution and still again in Article X of the Bill of Rights.
    Ok, I don't put all that much stock in what the "Constitution" says since it's ignored anyway but I wish the term "state's rights" had not been coined. The 10th Am says:
    Amendment X
    The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

    There's nothing here about rights and a fiction cannot HAVE rights. I know it's common for people to substitute "rights" for "powers" but there's a real distinction. Rights are granted by our Creator and powers are supposedly delegated by us to our "servants" (what a joke...).

    How about we start using the more correct term "State's Powers"? Maybe if we educate people a little at a time we can make some progress towards the relationship that is supposed to exist between "The People" and "their servants"...
    BEWARE THE CULT OF "GOVERNMENT"

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    Sonmi 451: Truth is singular. Its "versions" are mistruths.

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  24. #21
    That is certainly a great point. How about the reciprocal of that: people's powers or powers of the people?
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding one’s self in the ranks of the insane.” — Marcus Aurelius

    They’re not buying it. CNN, you dumb bastards!” — President Trump 2020

    Consilio et Animis de Oppresso Liber

  25. #22
    We get our rights from our nature, the constitution is a trust for the founders and their posterity, and anyone with a oath to it. Their laws don't apply to us but they will force them on us because we have no redress we are just chattel on their land claim. The 2nd amendment is there for their security not ours. All those amendments make sense now? we are dangerous to their security but they run a slave plantation so morally I have no reservations about breaking any and all of their laws.

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    *55

    But, indeed, no private person has a right tocomplain, by suit in Court , on the ground of abreach of the Constitution. The Constitution, it is
    true, is a compact, but he is not a party to it. The States are the parties to it. And they may complain.
    Last edited by tommyrp12; 02-20-2014 at 04:27 PM.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Weston White View Post
    That is certainly a great point. How about the reciprocal of that: people's powers or powers of the people?
    Have not really thought about how the word "power" relates to people. Rights certainly relate to people and I would say that word can ONLY be applied to people. I don't believe in rights for fictions. People really have no "power" that I can think of other than the power to protect one's rights. We certainly can't claim "power" over any other individual except maybe for our children. We can have power over our possessions I suppose which would include animals.

    Interesting point you bring up...
    BEWARE THE CULT OF "GOVERNMENT"

    Christian Anarchy - Our Only Hope For Liberty In Our Lifetime!
    Sonmi 451: Truth is singular. Its "versions" are mistruths.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:ChristianAnarchist

    Use an internet archive site like
    THIS ONE
    to archive the article and create the link to the article content instead.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianAnarchist View Post
    I thought we were talking about the right to arm bears...
    It's about shooting bears. Bears are no longer an issue, so you don't need those bear guns anymore. Piers Morgan told me so.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

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    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.



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