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Thread: SCOTUS 5th amend: don't talk to cops, fine, you might be guilty of murder

  1. #1

    SCOTUS 5th amend: don't talk to cops, fine, you might be guilty of murder

    Prosecutors can use a suspect’s silence during informal police questioning as evidence of guilt at a subsequent trial, the US Supreme Court said on Monday.

    In a case with important implications for individuals at the early stages of a police investigation, the high court said that a suspect must verbally invoke his or her Fifth Amendment right to remain silent to prevent police and prosecutors from using any resulting silence and incriminating body language as evidence of guilt during a jury trial.

    “The Fifth Amendment guarantees that no one may be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself; it does not establish an unqualified right to remain silent,” Justice Samuel Alito wrote for the court.

    “Before petitioner could rely on the privilege against self-incrimination, he was required to invoke it,” Justice Alito added in turning aside an appeal by a defendant convicted of murder in Texas.

    The high court split 5 to 4 on the issue, with the court’s five-member conservative wing rejecting a claim to the Fifth Amendment privilege in the case under scrutiny and the four-member liberal wing supporting such a claim.

    The issue arose in the case of Genovevo Salinas, who was charged and convicted in the shooting death of two brothers in Texas in 1992.

    During the initial stages of the police investigation, detectives conducted an informal interview with Mr. Salinas. He was not under arrest and police had not advised him of his right to remain silent or consult a lawyer.

    Salinas readily answered all of the detectives’ questions – except one. After nearly an hour of questions and answers, one of the detectives asked him if the shotgun police had recovered from the Salinas house earlier that day would match the shells recovered at the scene of the murder.

    Salinas fell silent. He did not respond. One of the officers would later testify that Salinas “looked down at the floor, shuffled his feet, bit his bottom lip, clinched his hands in his lap, began to tighten up.”

    The detective asked some additional questions that Salinas answered. The only question Salinas declined to answer related to whether the shells found at the murder scene would match Salinas’ shotgun.

    At his trial, the prosecutor presented testimony from the investigator about how Salinas had answered many questions by the police – but refused to answer one. The prosecutor told the jury in his closing that Salinas’ silence was evidence of the defendant’s guilt.

    Salinas was convicted of the double killing and sentenced to 20 years in prison.
    .
    http://news.yahoo.com/supreme-court-...005700241.html
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  3. #2
    It is a right, not a privilege. You don't have to ask for a right. These Judges are enemies of the Constitution, they should be removed from the bench and tried for treason.
    Last edited by RickyJ; 06-18-2013 at 03:25 PM.

  4. #3
    Remaining silent could be construed by jurors as a sign of guilt. (no matter how much they tell them not to take it into account) Even invoking the Fifth Amendment could sway some jurors to a guilty verdict. It is damned if you do, damned if you don't. My advice, not meaning $#@! as I am in no way a lawyer, would be to respectfully ask for your lawyer to be present or that you wish to seek counsel. A reason being something as simple as you do not understand the line of questioning or do not trust the officer to properly convey your statement. (recording equipment be damned.. and affirm as much)

    They'll tell you that it can't be used against you but the recording can be shown (of your actions before requesting an attorney) and the conclusions will be drawn. (perhaps a competent lawyer can have the court cleared and 'evidence' struck) No matter how little you say though, or even saying nothing, a skilled prosecutor can and will use it against you. Simple statements can be manipulated and used against you. Blank stares or complete silence can be used to show a lack of 'remorse' or that you unfit in mind. There are many different subtle ways for a prosecutor to cast a view of you to the jury. Subtle words, voice inflection, or emotion can all sway a jury to side with them.

    Again, I am not lawyer. I understand the system in the limited ways I was exposed to it and the people I've spoken with who have gone through it. Take my words as you will. The odds are stacked against the accused, that is for sure.
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  5. #4
    "Qui tacet consentire"
    "IF GOD DIDN'T WANT TO HELP AMERICA, THEN WE WOULD HAVE Hillary Clinton"!!
    "let them search you,touch you,violate your Rights,just don't be a dick!"~ cdc482
    "For Wales. Why Richard, it profits a man nothing to give his soul for the whole world. But for Wales?"
    All my life I've been at the mercy of men just following orders... Never again!~Erik Lehnsherr
    There's nothing wrong with stopping people randomly, especially near bars, restaurants etc.~Velho

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by aGameOfThrones View Post
    "Qui tacet consentire"
    ??
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
    Who else in public life has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea?--Donald Trump

  7. #6

  8. #7
    It was my understanding that the 5th is all or nothing. You either take it from the outset or not at all?
    I remember the congressmen talking about that over Lois Lerner since she made a statement then said "I ain't talking." They claimed that once she opened her trap, she had waived her 5th amendment rights.

    Either way, it's just another piece of the state's puzzle coming together.

  9. #8
    Oh, and cops are well trained in framing questions to get the answer they want. Your best bet is to always keep your mouth shut.
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  11. #9
    You are under no obligation to talk with police. This a ruse to have you incriminate yourself. In an "informal" police questioning, simply ask; "am I under arrest?" If the answer is "no", then you reply, "CYA!" If you are under arrest, then ask for an attorney.

  12. #10
    It is much easier to bully a false confession out of someone interrogated than to use other methods of evidence collection. Now it's even easier, as intractable silence of the accused is almost as good as a confession.
    All hail der Polizeistaat!

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias Graves View Post
    It was my understanding that the 5th is all or nothing. You either take it from the outset or not at all?
    I remember the congressmen talking about that over Lois Lerner since she made a statement then said "I ain't talking." They claimed that once she opened her trap, she had waived her 5th amendment rights.
    If a defendant chooses to testify in his own defense, the courts won't let him use the 5th to avoid cross-examination. During police interrogation, though, I think you can invoke 5th at any point.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by better-dead-than-fed View Post
    If a defendant chooses to testify in his own defense, the courts won't let him use the 5th to avoid cross-examination. During police interrogation, though, I think you can invoke 5th at any point.
    Well, you could until yesterday.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias Graves View Post
    Well, you could until yesterday.
    I don't think you are understanding the ruling.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias Graves View Post
    Well, you could until yesterday.
    You still can, but instead of simply exercising your right to remain silent, you have to go through the ritual of announcing that you're remaining silent. http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post5081997

  17. #15
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    As usual, the suspect made the mistake of talking to the cops. Had he kept his mouth shut for all of their questions he would have been better off. I don't know why he chose to answer almost all of their questions, but it helped convict him, regardless of his guilt or innocence.

    Moral of the story:
    Don't talk to cops!
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  18. #16
    LOL Miranda:

    Anything you say or NOT SAY may be used against you in a court of law.



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  20. #17
    It's been said many times. Do not talk to the police. Ever. At least not without an attorney present. If you start any dealings with the police this way, you will have some semblance of protection.

  21. #18
    Why should the right to remain silent mean that the fact that you remained silent can't be brought up in a trial?

  22. #19
    I'll take my chances with not saying anything. If you arrested cops only need to hear 5 words I have nothing to say. That's it.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    Why should the right to remain silent mean that the fact that you remained silent can't be brought up in a trial?
    If they're going to use your silence against you, than the "right to remain silent" is more or less empty.

    The purpose of that part of the 5th amendment is to eliminate coerced confession, but if your silence is taken to imply confession, that's against the spirit of the law.
    If you wanted some sort of Ideological purity, you'll get none of that from me.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam I am View Post
    If they're going to use your silence against you, than the "right to remain silent" is more or less empty.
    I disagree. You may decide that silence is better than speaking. But that doesn't mean that a jury shouldn't know that.

    Just like anything you say can be used against you, if you don't say anything at all, that can be too.

    It's not like silence can ever prove you're guilty. But it could be circumstantial evidence that goes along with other evidence in the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam I am View Post
    The purpose of that part of the 5th amendment is to eliminate coerced confession, but if your silence is taken to imply confession, that's against the spirit of the law.
    Silence is not a confession. But it's still something. I don't see why we should feel obligated to pretend that something that did happen didn't.
    Last edited by erowe1; 06-18-2013 at 09:45 AM.

  25. #22
    I'm guessing that anybody who thinks a jury shouldn't be allowed to be told how someone behaved in a police interview also thinks they shouldn't be allowed to hear about evidence obtained against the 5th amendment. I don't agree with that either.
    Last edited by erowe1; 06-18-2013 at 09:50 AM.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    Why should the right to remain silent mean that the fact that you remained silent can't be brought up in a trial?
    Good question. It seems like this case is saying that remaining silent can be used in Court. The 5th means you don't have to say anything, but does that mean that the fact of "taking the 5th" becomes some kind of secret?

    Detective at trial: "I asked him if he killed the guy."
    Prosecutor: "what was his answer?"
    Detective: "it's a secret."
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  27. #24
    “The Fifth Amendment guarantees that no one may be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself; it does not establish an unqualified right to remain silent,” Justice Samuel Alito wrote for the court.

    “Before petitioner could rely on the privilege against self-incrimination, he was required to invoke it,” Justice Alito added in turning aside an appeal by a defendant convicted of murder in Texas.
    That doesn't make sense though. At some point, a person may decide or realize that they should remain silent. There should be no time limit on that. It's applies when it applies, which can occur at any time.

    "Sorry, you no longer have that right because you didn't file a request to utilize the 5th Amendment in triplicate with the Ministry of Confessions at least 90 days prior to your questioning".
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
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  29. #25
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  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    Silence is not a confession. But it's still something. I don't see why we should feel obligated to pretend that something that did happen didn't.

    If you know that your silence is going to be used against you, than you certainly wouldn't feel safe remaining silent, and when silence isn't a safe bet, than it's a whole lot easier to coerce someone to confess, because they more or less feel like they're being forced to talk.
    If you wanted some sort of Ideological purity, you'll get none of that from me.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam I am View Post
    If you know that your silence is going to be used against you, than you certainly wouldn't feel safe remaining silent, and when silence isn't a safe bet, than it's a whole lot easier to coerce someone to confess, because they more or less feel like they're being forced to talk.
    But they're not being forced to talk. They can lie, or tell the truth, or remain silent. If they're guilty then all of those options have disadvantages.

    Honestly, even if they showed a video of the entire interrogation in a trial, I have trouble seeing how there could be anything wrong with that.

    A right to remain silent doesn't make silence into something other than what it is.

  32. #28
    You will be used against you in a court of our choosing.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by RickyJ View Post
    It is a right, not a privilege. You don't have to ask for a right. These Judges are enemies of the Constitution, they should be removed from the bench and tried for treason.
    federal Judges are self-immunized.

    The moral of the story is that police officers will never shoot the breeze with you.

    You must be assertive and ask "Am I under arrest" No? Get the $#@! out of there.

    .
    .
    .DON'T TAX ME BRO!!!

    .
    .
    "It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)

  34. #30
    In a case with important implications for individuals at the early stages of a police investigation, the high court said that a suspect must verbally invoke his or her Fifth Amendment right to remain silent to prevent police and prosecutors from using any resulting silence and incriminating body language as evidence of guilt during a jury trial.
    And this goes here, yet again:

    Last edited by Anti Federalist; 06-19-2013 at 01:32 PM.

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