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Thread: "All" doesn't mean "all," except when it means that babies will be tormented in hell forever

  1. #1

    "All" doesn't mean "all," except when it means that babies will be tormented in hell forever

    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...alvation/page3

    Does anyone else want to try to justify Sola Fide's argument here?



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  3. #2
    Hold on. Let's look at the alternative here.

    If salvation is based on the complete freedom of man's will, then no babies can go to heaven. They haven't had a chance to "choose" Jesus.

    I don't believe that salvation is based on man's will. If that were the case, no baby would be in heaven. What I do believe is that salvation is based on God's will, and the Judge of all the earth will always do right. It may be that God elects all infants. We don't know. What we do know is that God is good and whatever He does is right.

  4. #3
    My dad used to say that all babies went to Heaven because they were innocent. He was a Tennessee Southern baptist.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Hold on. Let's look at the alternative here.

    If salvation is based on the complete freedom of man's will, then no babies can go to heaven. They haven't had a chance to "choose" Jesus.

    I don't believe that salvation is based on man's will. If that were the case, no baby would be in heaven. What I do believe is that salvation is based on God's will, and the Judge of all the earth will always do right. It may be that God elects all infants. We don't know. What we do know is that God is good and whatever He does is right.
    We know that those who have sinned can't go to heaven if they haven't accepted Christ as their savior. However, babies don't sin since they're not old enough to understand God's law. Babies cannot understand that they're doing anything wrong, if they do anything wrong. All they do is eat, poop, sleep, and cry. How exactly can any of that be "a sin?" Babies are born with a sinful nature, but they don't exercise that sinful nature and sin until they get old enough to understand God's law and intentionally disobey it.
    Last edited by Brett85; 01-25-2014 at 12:29 PM.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    We know that those who have sinned can't go to heaven if they haven't accepted Christ as their savior. However, babies don't sin since they're not old enough to understand God's law and understand God's law. Babies cannot understanding that they're doing anything wrong, if they do anything wrong. All they do is eat, poop, sleep, and cry. How exactly can any of that be "a sin?" Babies are born with a sinful nature, but they don't exercise that sinful nature and sin until they get old enough to understand God's law and intentionally disobey it.
    I just showed you yesterday that this fantasy of "understanding" God's law as a requirement to be under it is nowhere in the Bible. Why did you just repeat it here?

    Children are born sinful. Every child of Adam is sinful. Adams sin was imputed to the entire human race. Do you have to teach babies to lie, TC? Do you have to teach babies to be selfish? Do you have to teach babies to take what's not theirs? Or do these things come naturally to a baby?

    And then you say that God's law is broken only if you "intentionally" do it. This is nowhere in the Bible.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    I just showed you yesterday that this fantasy of "understanding" God's law as a requirement to be under it is nowhere in the Bible. Why did you just repeat it here?
    I already showed you the verses in Numbers that talk about an age of accountability. I'm sure I could find others.

    Under Jewish Law, children are not obligated to observe the commandments, although they are encouraged to do so as much as possible to learn the obligations they will have as adults. At the age of 13 (12 for girls), children become obligated to observe the commandments. The bar mitzvah ceremony formally marks the assumption of that obligation, along with the corresponding right to take part in leading religious services, to count in a minyan (the minimum number of people needed to perform certain parts of religious services), to form binding contracts, to testify before religious courts and to marry.

    A Jewish boy automatically becomes a bar mitzvah upon reaching the age of 13 years, and a girl upon reaching the age of 12 years. No ceremony is needed to confer these rights and obligations. The popular bar mitzvah ceremony is not required, and does not fulfill any commandment. [http://www.jewfaq.org/barmitz.htm]

    Concerning the actual Age of Accountability J Vernon McGee’s Comments,

    Numbers 8:24 24 This is it that belongeth unto the Levites: from twenty and five years old and upward they shall go in to wait upon the service of the tabernacle of the congregation:

    “This raises the question of the age of accountability. When we come to Numbers 14:29 we read, "Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me." Apparently in this instance, twenty years was the age of accountability. The boy who was nineteen years old would be permitted to enter the land. The twenty-year-old boy who had murmured would die in the wilderness.

    I would like to suggest that the age of accountability may be older than we tend to think it is. We think maybe a little child is responsible. I don't think so. A little child can accept the Lord. In fact there are many on record as young as four years old who have received Christ. But the age of accountability must be somewhat later than that, and I'm of the opinion it will be different for different people. We see here that God made it different for the different forms of service. A man could be a soldier at twenty years; a Levite could work in the tabernacle at twenty-five years; a priest began his priestly service at thirty years. The important thing is that we should instruct boys and girls and encourage them to come to the Lord as soon as possible. It is so important for our children to trust in the Lord Jesus.” [J. Vernon McGee's Thru The Bible, Notes on Number 8.24, Word Search Bible Software version 7.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    I already showed you the verses in Numbers that talk about an age of accountability. I'm sure I could find others.
    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Traditional Conservative again.

    Thank you for posting this! I personally have been blessed by a deeper understanding of the scriptural reference to the "age of accountability"! Thank you!
    Experience teaches us that it is much easier to prevent an enemy from posting themselves than it is to dislodge them after they have got possession.
    ~ George Washington

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    I just showed you yesterday that this fantasy of "understanding" God's law as a requirement to be under it is nowhere in the Bible. Why did you just repeat it here?

    Children are born sinful. Every child of Adam is sinful. Adams sin was imputed to the entire human race. Do you have to teach babies to lie, TC? Do you have to teach babies to be selfish? Do you have to teach babies to take what's not theirs? Or do these things come naturally to a baby?

    And then you say that God's law is broken only if you "intentionally" do it. This is nowhere in the Bible.
    Neither is original sin. Yet you just preached that doctrine. Adam's imperfection is our inheritance. But his sins are his own. Thus children are born imperfect buy sinless until such a time as they are intelligently able to act upon their imperfection and sin.

    That said this argument over original sin and the damnation of babies is another reason I'm glad for the Book of Mormon and modern prophets.

    "Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin.... Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teach—repentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little children, and they shall all be saved with their little children. And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins. But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world"

    -Moroni 8:8, 10-12. (http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/moro/8?lang=eng)

    Truly a fantastic chapter of scripture and one worth reading in full. The logic is simple really. Little children are saved by the Atonement of Christ because they are unable to understand the law. And because they are unable to understand the law, they are unable to know that such and such a thing is a sin, and therefore unable to repent. Since baptism is an act of repentance before God for the remission of sins it is foolish to think children need baptism in order to be saved. Repentance and baptism are commandments to those accountable before God. Now as children grow up and begin to understand concepts of moral right and wrong, as they begin to understand the commandments of God, they become accountable for that knowledge and their disobedience to it. Thus repentance and baptism becomes necessary.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Hold on. Let's look at the alternative here.

    If salvation is based on the complete freedom of man's will, then no babies can go to heaven. They haven't had a chance to "choose" Jesus.

    I don't believe that salvation is based on man's will. If that were the case, no baby would be in heaven. What I do believe is that salvation is based on God's will, and the Judge of all the earth will always do right. It may be that God elects all infants. We don't know. What we do know is that God is good and whatever He does is right.
    Good grief Sola, just how horrible it must be for a parent with this belief who has lost an infant to not believe or know if that child is with the Father in heaven. How horrific a belief!

    Babies and infants, even little children are not held accountable for their lack of knowing, the word is clear on this too. Jesus uses "little children" as an example that we must become like them to enter the kingdom of heaven. Because they are innocent by their own ignorance of knowledge. I truly feel so sorry for you that you believe this way.

    Pride and knowledge are the root of all evil without the wisdom of God to rightly discern the Spirit of them. Babies and little children are not yet corrupted by the knowledge of this world, they are innocent. When they die, they go straight to the Fathers arms.
    Last edited by Terry1; 01-25-2014 at 04:34 PM.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Do you have to teach babies to lie, TC? Do you have to teach babies to be selfish? Do you have to teach babies to take what's not theirs? Or do these things come naturally to a baby?
    NEVER TURN YOUR BACK ON A BABY


    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    I truly feel so sorry for you that you believe this way.
    His entire theology is just completely sadistic.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    I already showed you the verses in Numbers that talk about an age of accountability. I'm sure I could find others.
    What does the bar mitzvah, Numbers 8, or Numbers 24 have anything to do with an "age of accountability"? The Numbers verses are requirements for temple duties. As for Numbers 14, do you want me to post verses where God commanded the Israelites to take vengeance upon the woman and children of the Amorites?
    Last edited by Sola_Fide; 01-25-2014 at 05:58 PM.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    His entire theology is just completely sadistic.
    Your theology does not honor God's holiness and doesn't properly understand how disgusting your sin is. Your idol is not the God of the Bible. The God of the Bible has wrath against sin.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Your theology does not honor God's holiness and doesn't properly understand how disgusting your sin is. Your idol is not the God of the Bible. The God of the Bible has wrath against sin.
    It sounds like your God has created million of souls with the expressed purpose of torturing them for eternity. Right?
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Your theology does not honor God's holiness and doesn't properly understand how disgusting your sin is. Your idol is not the God of the Bible. The God of the Bible has wrath against sin.
    And God's wrath includes torturing babies for all eternity, right? Even though they did nothing wrong and had absolutely no awareness of anything that was going on.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    It sounds like your God has created million of souls with the expressed purpose of torturing them for eternity. Right?
    As far as babies are concerned, I said that it may be that God elects all infants. I don't know. Is God obligated to save anyone? No. Is the Creator of the universe required to show mercy to any one of His creations? No. But is God a God of wrath that will glorify His justice? Yes He is. This is what Romans 9 talks about.

    Your problem is that you have a man centered view of the world. You think that God is to serve you. But you are a condemned criminal waiting to be executed. You have sinned against the Lord of Glory. God doesn't serve you, you serve God and His purposes.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    And God's wrath includes torturing babies for all eternity, right? Even though they did nothing wrong and had absolutely no awareness of anything that was going on.
    What did I say in the first post of this thread?

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    What does the bar mitzvah, Numbers 8, or Numbers 24 have anything to do with an "age of accountability"? The Numbers verses are requirements for temple duties.
    Because they give us a clue about how old children had to be to be given these duties which gives us a clue about what the age of accountability is. And this verse at least refutes your notion that some of the babies that have been aborted go to hell.

    Romans 9:11: “For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil.”

    As for Numbers 14, do you want me to post verses where God commanded the Israelites to take vengeance upon the woman and children of the Amorites?
    What does that have to do with anything? You said that God actually tortures babies in hell for all eternity. Where in the Bible did God ever torture babies, or anyone for that matter? Of course there were times in the Bible where God destroyed people, including children. God destroys all of us at some point, since we all die. But it's not within God's character to send a baby to hell for all eternity who has done nothing wrong. There's no example of God doing such a cruel thing in the Bible.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Your problem is that you have a man centered view of the world. But you are a condemned criminal waiting to be executed.
    No, Sola, MY problem, according to your interpretation of scripture, is not my "viewpoint". "Viewpoints" have nothing to do with salvation. MY problem, is that your "just" God created me for the purpose of torturing me for eternity.

    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    As far as babies are concerned, I said that it may be that God elects all infants. I don't know.
    Well, that's quite a bit different from what you were saying in the other threads. Maybe you're even starting to realize how ridiculous your earlier assertions were.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    Well, that's quite a bit different from what you were saying in the other threads. Maybe you're even starting to realize how ridiculous your earlier assertions were.
    What other threads? Since I've held this view for several years, it would pre-date RonPaulForums. So where do you think I've said something different?

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    Because they give us a clue about how old children had to be to be given these duties which gives us a clue about what the age of accountability is. And this verse at least refutes your notion that some of the babies that have been aborted go to hell.
    What does requirements about temple ceremonies in the Old Testament have to do with the "age of accountability"?


    Romans 9:11: “For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil.”
    For the children NOT YET BORN. They weren't born yet. That is why they had not done anything good or bad?



    What does that have to do with anything? You said that God actually tortures babies in hell for all eternity. Where in the Bible did God ever torture babies, or anyone for that matter? Of course there were times in the Bible where God destroyed people, including children. God destroys all of us at some point, since we all die. But it's not within God's character to send a baby to hell for all eternity who has done nothing wrong. There's no example of God doing such a cruel thing in the Bible.
    You posted a verse that said the men under 20 would be spared, I posted a verse that said the women and children would not be spared. If you cited the verse as an age of accountability proof, I showed how God heldthe children accountable.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    What other threads? Since I've held this view for several years, it would pre-date RonPaulForums. So where do you think I've said something different?
    ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    One extreme is to say that God saves all children before some magical "age of accountability" which is nowhere in the Bible. If that was the case, abortion would be the single best heaven-filling scheme ever devised.

    Another extreme is to say God doesn't save any infants. But this is contradicted it seems by the Scriptures.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    What does requirements about temple ceremonies in the Old Testament have to do with the "age of accountability"?
    It said that children weren't even required to observe the commandments until the age of 13. That seems to be very youngest age at which a child could be held accountable to God for disobeying his commandments. If children weren't required to observe the commandments, then they didn't know them, and wouldn't be held accountable by God for doing something that violated one of the commandments. Sin is when people intentionally disobey God and his commandments, and a baby or a young child hasn't yet developed the mental capacity to fully understand the commandments.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    No, Sola, MY problem, according to your interpretation of scripture, is not my "viewpoint". "Viewpoints" have nothing to do with salvation. MY problem, is that your "just" God created me for the purpose of torturing me for eternity.
    Romans 9 says the the condemnation of the wicked glorifies the justice of God and shows the recipients of mercy just how truly unmerited grace really is. The justice showed to reprobate sinners serves an eternally GOOD purpose. It is not for the purpose of torture.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    The justice showed to reprobate sinners serves an eternally GOOD purpose. It is not for the purpose of torture.
    You keep using the word "justice". Your God repays decent caring people who serve mankind for eighty years or so with an ETERNITY of torture. Your God CREATED his "pots" flawed, and then holds them accountable for being flawed. If the premise wasn't so asinine, it would be monstrous.
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Romans 9 says the the condemnation of the wicked glorifies the justice of God and shows the recipients of mercy just how truly unmerited grace really is. The justice showed to reprobate sinners serves an eternally GOOD purpose. It is not for the purpose of torture.
    Romans 9 also describes the fate of the wicked as being destruction, not eternal torture, but yet you just look over that part.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    You keep using the word "justice". Your God repays decent caring people who serve mankind for eighty years or so with an ETERNITY of torture. Your God CREATED his "pots" flawed, and then holds them accountable for being flawed. If the premise wasn't so asinine, it would be monstrous.
    Yes. God does create the pots for destruction and He holds them accountable for their sin. But watch how Paul deals with the objections to this doctrine like yours:

    Romans 9:19-24 NIV

    One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”

    But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ”

    Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

    What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
    Paul uses the imagery of the pot and the Potter for a reason. Can you think of how ridiculous it would be that a pot turn around to a potter and start talking, saying to his creator "Why did you make me like this?"

    Paul uses the ridiculousness of the imagery to prove his point. God has the sovereign right to make some pots for glory and others for destruction and you don't have the right to turn back to Him and say "Why did you make me like this?"
    Last edited by Sola_Fide; 01-25-2014 at 07:49 PM.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    God has the sovereign right to make some pots for glory and others for destruction and you don't have the right to turn back to Him and say "Why did you make me like this?"
    It's the "justice" part that is asinine, not the sovereign part.

    Romans 9:19
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    Romans 9 also describes the fate of the wicked as being destruction, not eternal torture, but yet you just look over that part.
    No, I don't look over it, but I understand that "destruction" is a metaphor for eternal punishment. We have never-dying souls, and the ones who love their sin and hate God do not stop sinning when they go to Hell. That is why punishment is eternal.

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