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Thread: Star Trek and economics

  1. #1

    Thumbs down Star Trek and economics

    Star Trek tries really hard to make the science behind the story lines as realistic as possible, which I enjoy.

    The economics on display in their stories however are complete fantasy which I find almost to the point of being offensive. In fact, their twisted economic Utopian ideas border on propaganda.
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  3. #2

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  4. #3
    Star Trek is a post scarcity society. Fusion energy allows Any Atom to be created from Hydrogen, the most plentiful substance in the universe, and Replicators can construct anything from the atoms in any configuration.

    With no scarcity, there is no unfulfilled need.

    It is utopian, because nobody starves or lacks vital medications as long as they are connected to the technology.
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  5. #4




    "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain

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  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    Star Trek tries really hard to make the science behind the story lines as realistic as possible, which I enjoy.


    Once I got into reading hard science fiction (by the likes of Robert L. Forward, Vernor Vinge, Greg Bear, etc.), I couldn't bear to watch Star Trek anymore.

    The "science" was laughable - just a bunch of standard SF shibboleths wrapped up in gee-whiz techno-babble. It might as well have been magic ...
    The Bastiat Collection · FREE PDF · FREE EPUB · PAPER
    Frédéric Bastiat (1801-1850)

    • "When law and morality are in contradiction to each other, the citizen finds himself in the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense, or of losing his respect for the law."
      -- The Law (p. 54)
    • "Government is that great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
      -- Government (p. 99)
    • "[W]ar is always begun in the interest of the few, and at the expense of the many."
      -- Economic Sophisms - Second Series (p. 312)
    • "There are two principles that can never be reconciled - Liberty and Constraint."
      -- Harmonies of Political Economy - Book One (p. 447)

    · tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito ·

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Icymudpuppy View Post
    Star Trek is a post scarcity society. Fusion energy allows Any Atom to be created from Hydrogen, the most plentiful substance in the universe, and Replicators can construct anything from the atoms in any configuration.

    With no scarcity, there is no unfulfilled need.

    It is utopian, because nobody starves or lacks vital medications as long as they are connected to the technology.
    First, there's no such thing as "post scarcity." There's culture and knowledge that can be traded. There's physical location. There's the energy required to transform hydrogen into your desired material. And if "anything" can be created from Hydrogen, where does the hydrogen some from (it's not limitless, but our desires are...)?

    And if we assume that what you say is a valid explanation, then it's just cruel that the Prime Directive doesn't allow them to share this divine technology with those "lesser" beings (but, of course, the crew can still have sex with them).

    The only reason people would be out exploring space in the first place would be to find trading partners - not be on some holy discovery mission where each planet is designated as a zoo under authority of Her Majesty's Royal Starfleet until a bureaucratic panel decides who is and isn't "people" and creating nothing but havoc and enemy empires along the way.
    "You cannot solve these problems with war." - Ron Paul

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Icymudpuppy View Post
    Star Trek is a post scarcity society.

    With no scarcity, there is no unfulfilled need.
    Except that they still have mining colonies. Except that they still have gold pressed latinum. Except that they still have works of art.

    It doesn't make sense at all because there are things of value.

    How do they get people to build things if they are not paid? Human beings are not going to be reliable workers if they don't get some sort of compensation.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  9. #8
    Here's something I'ver heard in the past & would like to have better references than a discussion on another forum about it: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/...-Jacque-Fresco

    The concept of a post-scarcity society is something I've been pondering for many years. I agree that people ought to be skeptical of the feasibility of such a thing, but at the same time I would like to know what do they suggest if they would like to test it to see if it can be done?



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    The "science" was laughable - just a bunch of standard SF shibboleths wrapped up in gee-whiz techno-babble. It might as well have been magic ...
    Clarke's Laws

    Clarke's Three Laws are three "laws" of prediction formulated by the British writer Arthur C. Clarke. They are:

    • When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.
    • The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.
    • Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
    Let's move forward to the Constitution.. I am the new GOP. I stand with Rand.

  12. #10
    Starfleet is a standing army our forefathers warned us about.

  13. #11
    Star Trek has a lot of commerce in it. Just because the writers make $#@! up does not mean that it has no commerce. In deep space nine when Sisko visits Earth it is full of restaurants and w/e for the inhabitants. Earth is at the forefront of federation a gigantic alliance of planets. They share tech, resources and military.

    Other races you run across are usually traders and they want things. Ferengi have a currency. Others barter.

    Humans in Star Trek are not humans of today. In enterprise there were boomers. Humans born in space because their parents were doing commerce. This probably means that all the ambitious ones are in space colonizing or exploring. So whoever remains voluntarily participates in federation utopia.
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  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    Except that they still have mining colonies. Except that they still have gold pressed latinum. Except that they still have works of art.

    It doesn't make sense at all because there are things of value.

    How do they get people to build things if they are not paid? Human beings are not going to be reliable workers if they don't get some sort of compensation.
    Post scarcity of basic needs. No starvation, no exposure, no lack of food, water, shelter, clothing, heat, etc.
    CPT Jack. R. T.
    US Army Resigned - Iraq Vet.
    Level III MACP instructor, USYKA/WYKKO sensei
    Professional Hunter/Trapper/Country living survivalist.

  15. #13
    Give me a source like a warp core with almost infinite energy, and money would not be required, as i could replicate anything i need.
    star trek fantasy relies on this infinite energy core.
    rewritten history with armies of their crooks - invented memories, did burn all the books... Mark Knopfler

  16. #14
    It would be nice to be able to replicate the best of things. The best coffee's, the best wines, etc...until then, most of us will never get to even try them out.
    "When a portion of wealth is transferred from the person who owns it—without his consent and without compensation, and whether by force or by fraud—to anyone who does not own it, then I say that property is violated; that an act of plunder is committed." - Bastiat : The Law

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  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    Star Trek tries really hard to make the science behind the story lines as realistic as possible, which I enjoy.

    The economics on display in their stories however are complete fantasy which I find almost to the point of being offensive. In fact, their twisted economic Utopian ideas border on propaganda.

    The Federation doesn't have an economy. When you're beyond scarcity, which they are thanks to replicators, you don't need money or an economy. You can make most if all the things you need with a replicator.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by V3n View Post
    Clarke's Laws

    Clarke's Three Laws are three "laws" of prediction formulated by the British writer Arthur C. Clarke. They are:

    • When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.
    • The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.
    • Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
    Yeah, I know about Clarke's Law. But it applies to "sufficiently advanced technology" - not to contemporary fiction stories.

    Like Star Wars, Star Trek has more to do with fantasy than it does with science.
    Star Trek just goes further in trying to put a "scientifficky" face on things.
    There's nothing wrong with that - but let's not pretend that it is what it isn't.

    (And if anything, Sturgeon's Law applies here - not Clarke's ... )
    The Bastiat Collection · FREE PDF · FREE EPUB · PAPER
    Frédéric Bastiat (1801-1850)

    • "When law and morality are in contradiction to each other, the citizen finds himself in the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense, or of losing his respect for the law."
      -- The Law (p. 54)
    • "Government is that great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
      -- Government (p. 99)
    • "[W]ar is always begun in the interest of the few, and at the expense of the many."
      -- Economic Sophisms - Second Series (p. 312)
    • "There are two principles that can never be reconciled - Liberty and Constraint."
      -- Harmonies of Political Economy - Book One (p. 447)

    · tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito ·



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    The Federation doesn't have an economy. When you're beyond scarcity, which they are thanks to replicators, you don't need money or an economy. You can make most if all the things you need with a replicator.
    Manufacturing is only one part of any society. Service is another. What is anyone's motivation to do anything unpleasant if there isn't money behind it? Why do they still have mining? Why do they still have transport vessels?
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst



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