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Thread: America has the highest gun violence in the world

  1. #31
    How much of it is related to the war on drugs? End it...



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  3. #32
    How many are gun violence from police officers?

    You think Israel doesn't have a lot of gun violence? I guess the IDF shooting Palestinian kids as target practice doesn't count as gun violence there.

    The chart is worthless without a breakdown of the gun violence categories and without the qualifications for what is considered gun violence and what isn't.



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by 56ktarget View Post
    Even using that metric, the picture is not pretty:
    You used the wrong metric.

    We want to see ALL murders, who cares if they use a gun? It's about the murder and crime rate, not the rate at which people kill others with guns.
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  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by silverhandorder View Post
    56k can you break down gun death's of victim vs assailant? If not that is not really relevant.
    This^

    Quote Originally Posted by RickyJ View Post
    How many are gun violence from police officers?

    You think Israel doesn't have a lot of gun violence? I guess the IDF shooting Palestinian kids as target practice doesn't count as gun violence there.

    The chart is worthless without a breakdown of the gun violence categories and without the qualifications for what is considered gun violence and what isn't.
    and this^

    I've seen this argument used for decades. The list of "homicides" always includes "justifiable homicides" as an argument against gun ownership.
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  7. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by 56ktarget View Post
    Why do Libertarians continue to delude themselves about the dangers of guns?
    56ktarget,

    Thank you for being concerned about this issue, murder is a terrible thing and certainly no one wants to see one of their loved ones murdered. To directly answer your question, I don't know anyone who is delusion on the dangers of guns, guns are designed to hurt/kill, so they are inherently dangerous. Most people know this.

    Since we both agree this is a terrible thing it should be worth addressing how to solve the problem. As with all issues, I work off a simple process to find a solution, the first two steps are:
    1. Understand and respect the natural rights bestowed upon us as related to the issue.
    2. Devise good government policy (which does not violate step #1).

    The first step is very important as without respect for our natural rights we would be subjects to the whim of others demands, and would live in bondage. This is the foundation for the principles of liberty, some detail can be found here: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/content...13-Why-Liberty

    Further, respect for individual liberty is also the foundation of this country, and is codified as law in various means. To level-set on natural rights for this issue, I present two thought questions you can answer:
    - Should a human being have the right to own property?
    - Should a human being have the right to defend themselves?

    We could go into extensive detail here but what you will find is that a free man has the natural right to own guns. Please let me know if you would like to discuss this. From here, whatever our position is, as we are founded on being a free country, we must respect peoples ownership of guns.

    On to the second step... Certainly you've heard the old cliche that "Guns don't kill people, people kill people." Well, there is truth to that, and it is the other part of the equation to the gun-related murder rate so this could be a good place to investigate to help derive good policy. Of course, policy that doesn't violate ones natural right to own guns.

    Perhaps it would be worth looking into culture and societal differences to help explain the trend lines. I've been to Japan recently and it's really no surprise that they don't even register on this chart as the behavior of the average person that I saw or interacted with had traits that were very polite, outstanding, non-violent and so-on. I've also been to a handful of the European counties low on the list and can see similar trends as well (though not the same as in Japan).

    So perhaps we could derive some policy that could better direct people away from wanting to murder, again however, this would have to be done in a way that does not step on others natural rights. For example, calls to ban / restrict violent video games (on a federal level) would step on others natural rights to own property. Regardless, there is room for a lot of discussion and debate here, and I'd be interested to hear your thoughts. I personally think there is a massive failure in the government run education system. The fact that's it's based on the Prussian education model doesn't help- so this is one area I would start. Are you fimilar with the Prussian education model?


    If you're thinking that some type of gun control would be a quick fix, and you're not willing to respect what others claim as a natural right then I've got some questions I'd like you to answer:

    - How would you propose that guns be rounded up?
    - Would you expect for everyone to comply and turn their guns in?
    - Would you support going door to door to confiscate guns if people did not turn them in?
    - Would you support breaking into peoples homes if they did not answer the door?
    - Would you support using aggressive measures against individuals to separate them from their guns within their homes?
    - Would you support killing gun owners if needed to get their guns?
    - Do you support an ideology that generates war? If you answer "yes" to the previous question you are in fact foresting war. As well, if you're willing to fully disregard what others consider as a natural right, you're fostering war.
    - Would you be willing to do this confiscation / killing yourself, or would you want someone to do it on your behalf?
    - With a gun ban, would you support any government agents having guns?
    - Do you trust government agents to have guns while others are unarmed?
    - If so, is it because government agents have some prescribed loyalty or training that could never be matched by a non-government agent?
    - Could you explain why you'd support allowing government agents to have guns while citizens don't?
    - Are you aware that governments that have disarmed their citizens have murdered them in the tens of millions?

    These are most serious questions.

    I look forward to your response. Thank you.
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    I strive to respond to all queries; please excuse late and out-of-sequence responses.

  8. #36
    Don't believe one statistic coming out of the mouth of the Federal Government... When you have mafia running the government, the Congress, the Administrative Branch; what is said, is pure propaganda .. Don't believe anything the Feds say about anything. They are criminals that wish to do you harm... that knowledge will set you free !!

  9. #37
    Unlike the rest of the "civilized" world, in the United States, criminals tend to get shot. The US has many problems, and I contend that one of those problems is not enough of the right sort of gun violence. It would sort out a great deal of mischief.
    Out of every one hundred men they send us, ten should not even be here. Eighty will do nothing but serve as targets for the enemy. Nine are real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, upon them depends our success in battle. But one, ah the one, he is a real warrior, and he will bring the others back from battle alive.

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  10. #38
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  11. #39
    I'm supposed to believe that gun violence is greater in the U.S. than opposed to some place like, hmmm, I don't know....Syria?

    I don't need a chart in order to cry BS.

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by 56ktarget View Post


    Why do Libertarians continue to delude themselves about the dangers of guns?

    lol.

    I'm too lazy to make an attempt at fixing dumb, but if one of you kind and energetic folks out there would fix the scale (left hand side) on his biased chart, even "gun-related murders" would be hilariously laughable.
    “One may come to the aid of another being unlawfully arrested, just as he may where one is being assaulted, molested, raped or kidnapped. Thus it is not an offense to liberate one from the unlawful custody of an officer, even though he may have submitted to such custody, without resistance.” (Adams v. State, 121 Ga. 16, 48 S.E. 910).



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  14. #41
    How many of those countries are also fighting a failed drug war?
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  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by 56ktarget View Post


    Why do Libertarians continue to delude themselves about the dangers of guns?
    Why do trolls like you persist in vomiting up this brand of nonsense that has been resoundingly disproven over and over again?

    I suspect you and "The economist" are one and the same... or are at least reach-around buddies.

    No time to waste with the likes of you.
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    "Government" is naught but a mental construct, a script to which people meekly accept and play out their assigned roles by those with no authority to dictate such.

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    We get what we tolerate and we deserve what we get precisely because we tolerate it.

  16. #43
    Gun banners are such cowards. Such a joke. Logic, reason and sense have no place when listening to a gun banner's monologue.

    If some gang bangers in Chicago start stabbing one another, would you support coming to my house and taking all my knives?

    Same question but substitute with hammers.

    Same question but substitute with baseball bats.

    And if not, why not? Don't you care about people? Do you want people to die? What about the children?

    If someone gets drunk and drives and kills people, will you propose to steal my car? And if I object will you try to put me in a cage?

    And what to do if a criminal tries to enter my home? Do I call the police? Why? Is it because criminal's respect the law so much that when I mention I'm calling the police they'll stop breaking the law? Or is the purpose of calling the police to have an armed response?


    Thought so.

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by IBleedNavyAndOrange View Post
    Gun banners are such cowards. Such a joke. Logic, reason and sense have no place when listening to a gun banner's monologue.

    If some gang bangers in Chicago start stabbing one another, would you support coming to my house and taking all my knives?

    Same question but substitute with hammers.

    Same question but substitute with baseball bats.

    And if not, why not? Don't you care about people? Do you want people to die? What about the children?

    If someone gets drunk and drives and kills people, will you propose to steal my car? And if I object will you try to put me in a cage?

    And what to do if a criminal tries to enter my home? Do I call the police? Why? Is it because criminal's respect the law so much that when I mention I'm calling the police they'll stop breaking the law? Or is the purpose of calling the police to have an armed response?


    Thought so.
    This brings up a good point-many multitudes more people are killed on American streets and highways directly because of automated vehicles. Why not ban the deadliest weapon of them all-the automobile engine!
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
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  18. #45
    Critical thinking is no longer taught in school.
    Indoctrination and outcome is about 1.5 generations away.
    Let them keep thinking Ron Paul supporters are just a little army. Every military strategy manual in the world has examples of the bad things that happen to arrogant commanders of massive armies that underestimate the enemy. They all lose. We will win because the human heart, despite its detractors, is meant for truth and freedom.

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    This brings up a good point-many multitudes more people are killed on American streets and highways directly because of automated vehicles. Why not ban the deadliest weapon of them all-the automobile engine!
    Have you come back from the future?

  20. #47
    That's because we have more baddies in the world; we must defend ourselves against. None of Obama and George Bush's false flags could have ever been pulled off; if there were a couple of concealed carry people in the area. Obozo and his clowns want to make sure they can instill the fear of god in us; by hiring crisisactors.org to stage some major production on a weekly basis that is alleged to take out innocent people.

    I'm not sure if you guys have noticed, but every false flag; staged event like the TSA agent killing another TSA agent; and the dude who is purported to have shot a couple of people at the shopping mall .. and a couple of others.. can't remember which since so many.... all coincidently had drills of the event a week before.

    Now I don't know how anyone is believing any of these all day news events ... I certainly don't. I've heard interviews in a number of these staged events, and a number interviewed said they would not have known what to do if it wasn't for the drill they had just days before it actually happened.

    More power to Obama.. He's a pathalogical liar; but his audience are pathalogical idiots.

  21. #48



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by 56ktarget View Post


    Why do Libertarians continue to delude themselves about the dangers of guns?

    * Excluding Mexico.

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Carson View Post
    * Excluding Mexico.
    I didn't know Mexico was a developed country.

    Anyway, yes, Mexico has much higher gun murder rate than the US. In 2010 there were over 10,000 reported homicides involving guns in the country.

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan View Post
    56ktarget,

    Thank you for being concerned about this issue, murder is a terrible thing and certainly no one wants to see one of their loved ones murdered. To directly answer your question, I don't know anyone who is delusion on the dangers of guns, guns are designed to hurt/kill, so they are inherently dangerous. Most people know this.

    Since we both agree this is a terrible thing it should be worth addressing how to solve the problem. As with all issues, I work off a simple process to find a solution, the first two steps are:
    1. Understand and respect the natural rights bestowed upon us as related to the issue.
    2. Devise good government policy (which does not violate step #1).

    The first step is very important as without respect for our natural rights we would be subjects to the whim of others demands, and would live in bondage. This is the foundation for the principles of liberty, some detail can be found here: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/content...13-Why-Liberty

    Further, respect for individual liberty is also the foundation of this country, and is codified as law in various means. To level-set on natural rights for this issue, I present two thought questions you can answer:
    - Should a human being have the right to own property?
    - Should a human being have the right to defend themselves?

    We could go into extensive detail here but what you will find is that a free man has the natural right to own guns. Please let me know if you would like to discuss this. From here, whatever our position is, as we are founded on being a free country, we must respect peoples ownership of guns.

    On to the second step... Certainly you've heard the old cliche that "Guns don't kill people, people kill people." Well, there is truth to that, and it is the other part of the equation to the gun-related murder rate so this could be a good place to investigate to help derive good policy. Of course, policy that doesn't violate ones natural right to own guns.

    Perhaps it would be worth looking into culture and societal differences to help explain the trend lines. I've been to Japan recently and it's really no surprise that they don't even register on this chart as the behavior of the average person that I saw or interacted with had traits that were very polite, outstanding, non-violent and so-on. I've also been to a handful of the European counties low on the list and can see similar trends as well (though not the same as in Japan).

    So perhaps we could derive some policy that could better direct people away from wanting to murder, again however, this would have to be done in a way that does not step on others natural rights. For example, calls to ban / restrict violent video games (on a federal level) would step on others natural rights to own property. Regardless, there is room for a lot of discussion and debate here, and I'd be interested to hear your thoughts. I personally think there is a massive failure in the government run education system. The fact that's it's based on the Prussian education model doesn't help- so this is one area I would start. Are you fimilar with the Prussian education model?


    If you're thinking that some type of gun control would be a quick fix, and you're not willing to respect what others claim as a natural right then I've got some questions I'd like you to answer:

    - How would you propose that guns be rounded up?
    - Would you expect for everyone to comply and turn their guns in?
    - Would you support going door to door to confiscate guns if people did not turn them in?
    - Would you support breaking into peoples homes if they did not answer the door?
    - Would you support using aggressive measures against individuals to separate them from their guns within their homes?
    - Would you support killing gun owners if needed to get their guns?
    - Do you support an ideology that generates war? If you answer "yes" to the previous question you are in fact foresting war. As well, if you're willing to fully disregard what others consider as a natural right, you're fostering war.
    - Would you be willing to do this confiscation / killing yourself, or would you want someone to do it on your behalf?
    - With a gun ban, would you support any government agents having guns?
    - Do you trust government agents to have guns while others are unarmed?
    - If so, is it because government agents have some prescribed loyalty or training that could never be matched by a non-government agent?
    - Could you explain why you'd support allowing government agents to have guns while citizens don't?
    - Are you aware that governments that have disarmed their citizens have murdered them in the tens of millions?

    These are most serious questions.

    I look forward to your response. Thank you.
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  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by 56ktarget View Post
    Even using that metric, the picture is not pretty:
    Again, specifies GUN related homicides.
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  27. #53
    Gun control is based on the idea that someone, somewhere did something bad, so the thing to do is to punish everyone who didn't commit the original act.
    Out of every one hundred men they send us, ten should not even be here. Eighty will do nothing but serve as targets for the enemy. Nine are real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, upon them depends our success in battle. But one, ah the one, he is a real warrior, and he will bring the others back from battle alive.

    Duty is the most sublime word in the English language. Do your duty in all things. You can not do more than your duty. You should never wish to do less than your duty.

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Pericles View Post
    Gun control is based on the idea that someone, somewhere did something bad, so the thing to do is to punish everyone who didn't commit the original act.
    I think it's more than that, because if it was just that basic then why isn't there a push to ban automobiles for things like road rage, drunk driving accidents, highway injuries and deaths, etc?

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by 56ktarget View Post


    Why do Libertarians continue to delude themselves about the dangers of guns?
    guns can be dangerous.....government with an unarmed populace is much more dangerous. I opt for the less dangerous.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it."
    James Madison

    "It does not take a majority to prevail ... but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men." - Samuel Adams



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  30. #56



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  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Verrater View Post
    I hate that I can't give you more reputation at this time.
    I gotcha covered.

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