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Thread: Honey Bee Colonies Collapsing in Europe

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    There's just no stopping the agenda train, is there? Neonictinoids have nothing to do with GMO crops, but yet your sources insist on lumping them together. But by God you absolutely refuse to even wonder why that might possibly be happening.

    In what could be a wild bit of irony, these insecticides were developed as an environmentally friendly, organic method of insect control. http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonentin...s-precipitous/
    Losing our honey bees is a really big deal. Pesticides kill. You may not care but a lot of us do. Before GMO, farm fields were not broadcast with pesticides.



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  3. #32
    My wife is taking a beekeeping class right now.

    Both instructors blame the collapses on lazy beekeepers who don't properly clean or replace certain hive components.



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by sluggo View Post
    My wife is taking a beekeeping class right now.

    Both instructors blame the collapses on lazy beekeepers who don't properly clean or replace certain hive components.
    This independent study points the finger squarely at pesticides.
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...0182#abstract0

    Recent declines in honey bee populations and increasing demand for insect-pollinated crops raise concerns about pollinator shortages. Pesticide exposure and pathogens may interact to have strong negative effects on managed honey bee colonies. Such findings are of great concern given the large numbers and high levels of pesticides found in honey bee colonies.

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by sluggo View Post
    My wife is taking a beekeeping class right now.

    Both instructors blame the collapses on lazy beekeepers who don't properly clean or replace certain hive components.
    I have thousands of them every year just by planting sunflower seeds in the mulch beds throughout the yard. It's the neatest thing to see them swarming all over them.

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by sluggo View Post
    Both instructors blame the collapses on lazy beekeepers who don't properly clean or replace certain hive components.
    There is a great deal of merit to that, I think, but we're talking about a monumental decline in bee population. Of course, entire countries have banned these gmo companies for this very reason, as was referenced earlier.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 01-15-2014 at 07:13 AM.

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by sluggo View Post
    My wife is taking a beekeeping class right now.

    Both instructors blame the collapses on lazy beekeepers who don't properly clean or replace certain hive components.
    Quote Originally Posted by Travlyr View Post
    This independent study points the finger squarely at pesticides.
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...0182#abstract0
    Yah... all of a sudden a few hundreds of thousands of beekeepers worldwide suddenly became lazy all at once? Hmmmm...



    I was considering keeping a few hives. My neighbor gave me over a dozen of them, then had a stroke and I didn't get down to his place fast enough. The SOB who bought his place BURNED them. I was fit to shoot that stupid, wasteful idiot. Voltaire was right about the method for understanding the concept of infinity.

    If those bees go extinct, you just wait and see the fun that will ensue.
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Sigh. Virtually all crops, period, are treated with neonictinoids.
    http://www.opednews.com/articles/Pes...130503-76.html
    http://www.beyondpesticides.org/dailynewsblog/?p=12020

    This guy was developing Resistant bees.



    http://foodfreedomgroup.com/2012/05/...aining-queens/
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by FrankRep View Post
    Monsanto doesn't make neonicotinoids.


    Here are the companies:

    Bayer CropScience
    Syngenta
    Sumitomo Chemical
    Nippon Soda
    Mitsui Chemicals
    Dow Agrosciences
    Sumitomo Chemical


    SOURCE: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neonicotinoid
    Yes, please note in my reply I did NOT blame Monsanto because I could not find where they produce the neoncotinoids. That doesn't mean that the crops in the fields aren't Monsanto crops - but I didn't blame Monsanto specifically.

    I do think they are an evil, crony capitalist company. The rotating door between Monsanto and the US government should be a crime to anyone who believes in liberty.
    They have gotten away with lax oversight of genetic modification by promising to save the world with increased crop output (due to less crop destruction from pests, of course). And because some people still believe the propaganda from 20 years ago about how GMOs will save the world! (so will the war on terror, dontcha know?)
    Few men have virtue enough to withstand the highest bidder. ~GEORGE WASHINGTON, letter, Aug. 17, 1779

    Quit yer b*tching and whining and GET INVOLVED!!

  11. #39
    I don't want to insult, but how anyone could believe that genetically modifying anything in our world is a good idea is just plain mind boggling.
    On Trump:
    How conservative Republicans can continue to support this arrogant imposter—the man who brags about inflicting the world with the Covid mark of the beast; the man who said, “Take the guns first, go through due process second”; and the man who deliberately played and then set up Stewart Rhodes (of course, Stewart was all too eager to be Trump’s patsy) for an 18-year prison sentence—is truly beyond my comprehension.” Chuck Baldwin

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Travlyr View Post
    Losing our honey bees is a really big deal. Pesticides kill. You may not care but a lot of us do. Before GMO, farm fields were not broadcast with pesticides.
    Of course I care about losing the bees. I do not think that the body of evidence is clear that it is neonictinoids. It might be, but there are other studies that indicate that fungicides might also be responsible.

    The talking point that fields were not broadcast with insecticides before GMO is just another lie from the liars. If you want to talk about that, let's start with DDT.



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Cap View Post
    I don't want to insult, but how anyone could believe that genetically modifying anything in our world is a good idea is just plain mind boggling.
    I don't want to insult anybody either, but I used to think that way. Then I started educating myself.

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Cap View Post
    I don't want to insult, but how anyone could believe that genetically modifying anything in our world is a good idea is just plain mind boggling.
    Because...

    SCIENCE!




    Seriously though I see two ways to look at the idea.

    1) you believe in God and you believe He authored and created all life - and He did it perfectly.

    or

    2) you believe in evolution which took MILLIONS OR BILLIONS of years to occur and you're so short sighted to not think that one generation can make such a large disruption to that process without SERIOUS issues?

    Think about it, yes they've modified our food - but our bodies have not EVOLVED to be able to digest or expel these new creations. Perhaps in 3 or 4 more generations our guts will be able to handle this new load. Maybe in a couple more generations the bees will be able to handle them. But what if we don't make it til then?

    How many animals have humans SUCCESSFULLY evolved into something else within a generation or 2?
    Waiting...
    Few men have virtue enough to withstand the highest bidder. ~GEORGE WASHINGTON, letter, Aug. 17, 1779

    Quit yer b*tching and whining and GET INVOLVED!!

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by mosquitobite View Post
    Yes, please note in my reply I did NOT blame Monsanto because I could not find where they produce the neoncotinoids. That doesn't mean that the crops in the fields aren't Monsanto crops -

    60% of the crops in America are not Monsanto crops.

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by mosquitobite View Post
    B
    Think about it, yes they've modified our food - but our bodies have not EVOLVED to be able to digest or expel these new creations. Perhaps in 3 or 4 more generations our guts will be able to handle this new load. Maybe in a couple more generations the bees will be able to handle them. But what if we don't make it til then?

    .

    You clearly have no idea what on Earth you're talking about.
    Last edited by angelatc; 01-15-2014 at 08:50 AM.

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    They cannot do that and hope to remain in business. One of my friends is a grain farmer in NJ. He grow GMO. Why? Because he'd go out of business otherwise. Blight resistant - pest resistant - faster growing - higher yields - drought tolerance - all reasons to use GMO because everyone else is using them, bringing in huge crops and the price of grain is depressed. If you don't use GMOs, your costs per acre are higher and yield lower and combined with the low fetch per bushel, you aren't making enough to live.

    The situation is similar to when the first manufacturer in market X went to China. All his competitors HAD to follow suit or he would have driven them all out of business. Remember when good tennis shoes were $300 a pair, back when $300 was a LOT of money? Now you get top of the line for 1/3 that in a time when the money buys perhaps 1/3 what it did back then. When one manufacturer is able to cut prices by that much, the rest either follow suit or close their doors - no quesiton about it.
    This is important for people to understand.
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!

  19. #46
    Worldwide, 282 million acres are planted in Monsanto’s GM crops, up from only 3 million in 1996, according to Food and Water Watch.

    Forty percent of U.S. cropland, or 151.4 million acres, are planted in Monsanto’s crops. Monsanto owns 1,676 seed, plant and other applicable patents.
    http://www.organicconsumers.org/arti...icle_28059.cfm
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  20. #47

    He says he was researching herbicide resistant bees. He has not yet published any of the data he gathered over his 15 years of research, which confuses me. He was instrumental in discovering the DDT / Bald Eagle link. Even if his research was inconclusive, I can't imagine why he would not release it if the experiment was over.

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    This is important for people to understand.
    It it important to understand that farmers want to maximize both yields and profits? And that prices fall as efficiency increases?

    These are not bad things. This is Austrian Econ 101.

    All industries seek the same thing. More product for less work. When prices fall too low to sustain X number of producers, the number of producers fall or the government subsidizes them.

    It's that last bit that screws things up, not the first bit.



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    60% of the crops in America are not Monsanto crops. [/URL]
    Does that mean that 40% of the crops are Monsanto?

    Humans attempting to play god is never a good idea.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by mosquitobite View Post
    Because...
    SCIENCE!

    Seriously though I see two ways to look at the idea.
    1) you believe in God and you believe He authored and created all life - and He did it perfectly.
    or
    2) you believe in evolution which took MILLIONS OR BILLIONS of years to occur and you're so short sighted to not think that one generation can make such a large disruption to that process without SERIOUS issues?

    Think about it, yes they've modified our food - but our bodies have not EVOLVED to be able to digest or expel these new creations. Perhaps in 3 or 4 more generations our guts will be able to handle this new load. Maybe in a couple more generations the bees will be able to handle them. But what if we don't make it til then?

    How many animals have humans SUCCESSFULLY evolved into something else within a generation or 2?
    Waiting...
    Those 2 concepts are not mutually exclusive. One could even believe that a God created the process of evolution and one could also believe that a God gave us the intelligence necessary to take advantage of processes he put in nature to create GMO foods.

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    It it important to understand that farmers want to maximize both yields and profits? And that prices fall as efficiency increases?

    These are not bad things. This is Austrian Econ 101.

    All industries seek the same thing. More product for less work. When prices fall too low to sustain X number of producers, the number of producers fall or the government subsidizes them.

    It's that last bit that screws things up, not the first bit.
    The whole post is important, Angie. It helps give clarity as to why Farmers are pretty much stuck having to buy GMOs at this point in time, if they want to stay in business.
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    The whole post is important, Angie. It helps give clarity as to why Farmers are pretty much stuck having to buy GMOs at this point in time, if they want to stay in business.

    Organic farming is a multi-billion dollar business.

    As for the rest of it, that's technology works. When prices fall, producers either step up production or they exit the game.

    Farmers are absolutely no different in that respect, nor should they be.

    I am all for wiping out the subsidies and watching food prices climb. These guys taking money from the government just so they can stay in business are not doing us any favors.
    Last edited by angelatc; 01-15-2014 at 09:11 AM.

  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    Those 2 concepts are not mutually exclusive. One could even believe that a God created the process of evolution and one could also believe that a God gave us the intelligence necessary to take advantage of processes he put in nature to create GMO foods.
    I did not say they have to be mutually exclusive.

    So you believe that these scientists are so vastly intelligent that they have studied the long term effects of them on the human population?
    uh, how, exactly considering that when they first started being planted in the early 90's I was in high school and just recently started having children. Can you point to any studies from the 2nd or third generations of what our new foods might be doing to our DNA?
    Few men have virtue enough to withstand the highest bidder. ~GEORGE WASHINGTON, letter, Aug. 17, 1779

    Quit yer b*tching and whining and GET INVOLVED!!

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Organic farming is a multi-billion dollar business.
    Because people want a choice.

    A choice YOU would rather they not have. One you wish people would just SHUT UP about.
    Few men have virtue enough to withstand the highest bidder. ~GEORGE WASHINGTON, letter, Aug. 17, 1779

    Quit yer b*tching and whining and GET INVOLVED!!

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    Those 2 concepts are not mutually exclusive. One could even believe that a God created the process of evolution and one could also believe that a God gave us the intelligence necessary to take advantage of processes he put in nature to create GMO foods.
    Or...one could believe, as I do, that God created the process of evolution, and also gave us (infused in us during evolution) the intelligence to discover ways to tweak nature, as in GMOs. It would help explain why the science community can't find the missing link in the theory of evolution. Then comes the question of free will - we have to decide if tweaking nature (as in GMOs) is the right thing to do for mankind. Clearly there is no consensus on this.
    Last edited by Deborah K; 01-15-2014 at 09:12 AM. Reason: clarity
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!

  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Does that mean that 40% of the crops are Monsanto?

    Not all Monsanto seeds are GMO, and not all GMO are Monsanto.



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  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by mosquitobite View Post
    I did not say they have to be mutually exclusive.
    I did not see any mention of a God in your 2nd option after the OR. You didn't say and/or.

    Quote Originally Posted by mosquitobite View Post
    So you believe that these scientists are so vastly intelligent that they have studied the long term effects of them on the human population?
    uh, how, exactly considering that when they first started being planted in the early 90's I was in high school and just recently started having children. Can you point to any studies from the 2nd or third generations of what our new foods might be doing to our DNA?
    Please point out where I said any of that, thanks.

    You said:
    Quote Originally Posted by mosquitobite View Post
    2) you believe in evolution which took MILLIONS OR BILLIONS of years to occur and you're so short sighted to not think that one generation can make such a large disruption to that process without SERIOUS issues?
    Yes, I think that is it possible. Especially if a God gave us the tools to use and is overlooking us; probably not all GMO creations (but not all gmo creations get out of the lab either) Who are you to say that this (GMO) isn't part of a God's continuing process of evolution?

  33. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by mosquitobite View Post
    Because people want a choice.

    A choice YOU would rather they not have. One you wish people would just SHUT UP about.
    Not all people. Just you. Specifically, I wish you'd shut up if you're going to post nonsense misrepresenting other people's positions.

    I have no problem people buying organic. I have massive problems with the organic crowd lying about their competition while trying to shut them down.

    For example, organic foods are directly responsible for the deaths of people. Here's a blogger that links to at least three examples. I'm not here yammering that they should be banned.

    On the other hand, 20 years of GMO food and there is not a single documented illness or side effect. But the lies of the hysterical organic worshippers .... they are being generated in epidemic proportions.

  34. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    I did not see any mention of a God in your 2nd option after the OR. You didn't say and/or.
    I said *I* see it one of two ways. If you choose to see it as a co-mingling of the two, that's fine. I didn't limit the way YOU see GMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    Please point out where I said any of that, thanks.

    You said:

    Yes, I think that is it possible. Especially if a God gave us the tools to use and is overlooking us; probably not all GMO creations (but not all gmo creations get out of the lab either) Who are you to say that this (GMO) isn't part of a God's continuing process of evolution?
    In order to believe that God gave them the tools then one would assume they'd want to see proof from long term safety studies on multiple generations.

    But hey, if you want to have faith in science, I'm not trying to stop you! I just want a fricken CHOICE in the matter.

    And I believe that when God said "it is good" He meant it. He didn't say, "ok humans, I messed up here by creating this bug that eats your crops - fix it [by modifying HIS creation]"
    Few men have virtue enough to withstand the highest bidder. ~GEORGE WASHINGTON, letter, Aug. 17, 1779

    Quit yer b*tching and whining and GET INVOLVED!!

  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    It it important to understand that farmers want to maximize both yields and profits? And that prices fall as efficiency increases?

    These are not bad things. This is Austrian Econ 101.
    Too broadly categorical a claim based on too narrow a set of considerations. There must be a context within which the goals are set. Part of the context is that whatever it is you are producing is not poisonous or otherwise deleterious to those consuming it.

    You cannot make a valid point with half-truths.

    If I can produce 10X the merchandise at 0.1X the cost, should I want to do it if 2% of the people are guaranteed to develop cancers directly resulting from consumption of what I grow?

    It's easy for me to say, "$#@! 'em if they don't care enough to educate themselves. Caveat emptor." Easy for anyone to do that when it is not them or those they value becoming ill.

    All industries seek the same thing. More product for less work. When prices fall too low to sustain X number of producers, the number of producers fall or the government subsidizes them.
    Sure, but once again you ignore the baseline context of doing no harm. I should be free to produce anything I want - foods, guns, whatever, but when my products bring people to harm in and of themselves and in the course of their intended uses, I have crossed a line.

    It's that last bit that screws things up, not the first bit.
    It can be both.
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

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