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Thread: Has anybody ever demanded a jury trial to fight a traffic ticket?

  1. #31
    Someone close to me is going to jury for a DUI during a no refusal weekend. Texas doesn't care if mandatory blood drawing is unconstitutional. He did manage to win the ALR hearing to keep his license for now. Not sure how it works with traffic tickets.



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  3. #32
    Chester Copperpot
    Member

    Since Ronnyman has bumped this thread, NorthCarolinaLiberty asked me for an update so Im happy to oblige.. But first I want to give a shout out to Ronnyman who I know over at another forum.. He's a die-hard statist with some very good conservative principles, like hard work, be law abiding... He hates the welfare state.. However he embraces the warfare state and doesnt recognize theyre both one and the same. He's a neocon at the same time he hates Republicans.. His idol is Hillary. He despises Ron Paul for appearing weak and not being a control freak...

    That said, lets move onto the update...

    I originally went through with this to see if I could get to a jury trial, appeal my case to the jury, and have a jury nullify the unconstitutional law. When I first went to court, the attending officer didn't show up. This is a normal part of the process. If I don't show, I'm guilty.. He he doesn't show I should be innocent. nope.

    This case went on like this back and forth a few times, getting postponed for various reasons.. each time it postponed it would take another month for the new court date. One of the things I had a hard time getting from the prosecution was proper discovery.. They're supposed to provide me all pertinent data about the stop.. Including police reports, the laws, and things Im required to know so that I can properly defend.. A trick they use (and Ive been told subsequently by other LEOs) is to withhold discovery to the same morning of the court case (like they did with me) and then when they provide the discovery, there is absolutely nothing pertinent to the case. Police reports are blank.. I mean blank. nothing. There are no laws posted, no list of the rules I requested.. The only thing they provided was nonsensical items like the location of all the liquor stores in town, and that they had followed the Constitution by posting an article online 5 hours before the checkpoint was set up, and because they force all vehicles off the road it abides by the Constitution..

    At this junction I had to gain more time for a defense, and the prosecutor was pushing very hard for a trial at this point because she knew the information she provided through discovery gave me nothing to defend. I was able to out-talk the prosecutor in front of the judge and half a dozen other cops and won the argument for a postponement.

    I want to point out that because I was defending myself and pleading not guilty.. Each and every time I went to court.. I was the absolute last case to go.. I had to sit through HOURS of waiting through all the other people who were pleading guilty, or who had counsel... Its a big revenue circle jerk that makes a small business owner kinda envious tbh. Also because I was somewhat a curiousity to the other officers in the court, they would all stand in front by the judge and look at me when I would plead my case.. SO it was uncomfortable to say the least.

    Anyway, after this incident with the prosecutor, I had heard through the grapevine (i work with cops) that she was super pissed off at me and was going to nail me to the wall, blah blah...

    However, when I came back I was prepared. And I was confident and relaxed. (My biggest problem is being nervous in this environment so I took 50mg iodine before I went to court knowing after so many hours it would take effect)

    Prosecutor blinked.

    As I sat right behind the prosecutor for hours waiting for my case to be called, I could definitely see she was nervous everytime she looked my way. At this point an officer called me outside who was a friend of a friend of mine. He wanted to know exactly what my argument was going to be.. (They definitely did not follow their own rules, and I was prepared to challenge constitutionality at the State's expense.. even if it meant appeal after appeal) However since he was giving me professional courtesy and I didnt want him to be pissed off at our mutual friend, I told him I would agree to the prosecutor's original offer.. which basically got rid of 2 tickets excepting the cell phone. I met with the officer who actually sited me and he explained that he had a cousin who got killed by a drunk driver and thats why he takes the DUI checkpoint so seriously.. I told him that I too had a cousin who was killed by a drunk driver and my cousin was also a cop. Also being related to Ben Franklin I get real serious about defending the Constitution, and even mentioned my Grandpa Franklin grew up in a farm in this particular town.

    Anyway, when I came back into the court room, I went next..(they said they didnt want me to wait anymore because I had waited long enough) 2 out of 3 tickets were dropped. Plus all of the late fees and charges were dropped as well as the fees for the ticket happening in a safety corridor. My cost $110.

    Now although I was prepared to engage in a long court battle, I knew my interpretation of the Constitution was 180 degrees different than the cops, the prosecutor., and the judge.. At one point during one of our meetings the judge remarked that he didnt know where in the Constitution that DUI checkpoints were illegal, so I slipped my hardbound Constitution out of his cover and prepared to speak and I saw his eyebrows and mouth open wide.. but the prosecutor cut him off and changed the topic before I could bring up the point.

    THis would have been a nightmare for them because the State would have paid for my defense to strike down their own laws, however it was also becoming a nightmare for me because as this had been going on for months, It got to be a big pain in the ass because of the amount of effort required and the diminishing returns available even if I won... On top of this, during the period where the trial was getting postponed all the time, I was pulled over just about ever couple days (never got a ticket of course)... I didnt realize it until the court case was over, but the police using their automatic scanners would read my license plate and see that I had a pending court date that was from December.. They would pull me over thinking there was a bench warrant for me.. some would even comment, you know you got unpaid ticket from December... Well of course I do, because Im innocent until proven guilty...

    To be honest, once I was able to outsmart a prosecutor in front of a judge, it became rather easy to talk my way out of any tickets.

    Strange coincidence that this thread has been bumped now because 2 days ago, Saturday night I was passenger with my friend driving and we were following the same highway where the checkpoint was last year and sure enough there were the ficticious road signs that said "ROAD WORK AHEAD" along with a burning road flare.. I told her it was a checkpoint.. so we and another car detoured around it.. Once you pass the point of no return theyll have a sign that says CHECKPOINT..

    So just another tip, ANYTIME you see road work signs or construction signs and they have road flares them, its a ruse... Road flares are temporary lighting for a checkpoint thats up for a few hours... real construction crews will used spot lights or blinking safety lights...



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  5. #33
    Chester Copperpot
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
    Looks like Ronnyman also has sock puppet accounts. He has those accounts giving him + reps.
    Maybe him being exposed to liberty will give him another outlook on things....

  6. #34
    Chester Copperpot
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by Carlybee View Post
    Someone close to me is going to jury for a DUI during a no refusal weekend. Texas doesn't care if mandatory blood drawing is unconstitutional. He did manage to win the ALR hearing to keep his license for now. Not sure how it works with traffic tickets.
    If somebody forced me to have my blood drawn, there would be an absolute war with me.. I might get shot.. Id definitely get arrested and thrown in jail.

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Mitrosky View Post
    If somebody forced me to have my blood drawn, there would be an absolute war with me.. I might get shot.. Id definitely get arrested and thrown in jail.
    They arrest you on suspicion when you refuse the breathalyzer then take you to the jail and forcibly draw your blood. He did object on video at the time they drew it, but Texas sucks on DUI laws..hence why it's going to jury.

  8. #36
    Chester Copperpot
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by Carlybee View Post
    They arrest you on suspicion when you refuse the breathalyzer then take you to the jail and forcibly draw your blood. He did object on video at the time they drew it, but Texas sucks on DUI laws..hence why it's going to jury.
    Hmm,, looks like the only way these checkpoints will stop is when people start carrying grenades, pull the pin and say I will not comply.


    FWIW, the real way to fight these people is to go after the soft underbelly.. the politicians.... Fighting the cops is like trying to fight the IRS, when the real attack should be towards the FED.

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Mitrosky View Post
    Hmm,, looks like the only way these checkpoints will stop is when people start carrying grenades, pull the pin and say I will not comply.


    FWIW, the real way to fight these people is to go after the soft underbelly.. the politicians.... Fighting the cops is like trying to fight the IRS, when the real attack should be towards the FED.
    Texas doesnt have checkpoints. Maybe immigration checkpoints near border though.
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  10. #38
    Ronnyman
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by bxm042 View Post
    Indeed. Without a front license plate or registration sticker, someone could get seriously hurt. And without safety inspections.... god.... I don't even want to imagine the harm & chaos that would ensue.
    Im talking about texting or cell phone use.....and Yes....some cars On the street need to be checked every year because there are many with bald tires, bad wheel bearings...etc...etc...etc. I see un safe cars on the road all the time.

  11. #39
    Ronnyman
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Mitrosky View Post
    Since Ronnyman has bumped this thread, NorthCarolinaLiberty asked me for an update so Im happy to oblige.. But first I want to give a shout out to Ronnyman who I know over at another forum.. He's a die-hard statist with some very good conservative principles, like hard work, be law abiding... He hates the welfare state.. However he embraces the warfare state and doesnt recognize theyre both one and the same. He's a neocon at the same time he hates Republicans.. His idol is Hillary. He despises Ron Paul for appearing weak and not being a control freak...

    That said, lets move onto the update...

    I originally went through with this to see if I could get to a jury trial, appeal my case to the jury, and have a jury nullify the unconstitutional law. When I first went to court, the attending officer didn't show up. This is a normal part of the process. If I don't show, I'm guilty.. He he doesn't show I should be innocent. nope.

    This case went on like this back and forth a few times, getting postponed for various reasons.. each time it postponed it would take another month for the new court date. One of the things I had a hard time getting from the prosecution was proper discovery.. They're supposed to provide me all pertinent data about the stop.. Including police reports, the laws, and things Im required to know so that I can properly defend.. A trick they use (and Ive been told subsequently by other LEOs) is to withhold discovery to the same morning of the court case (like they did with me) and then when they provide the discovery, there is absolutely nothing pertinent to the case. Police reports are blank.. I mean blank. nothing. There are no laws posted, no list of the rules I requested.. The only thing they provided was nonsensical items like the location of all the liquor stores in town, and that they had followed the Constitution by posting an article online 5 hours before the checkpoint was set up, and because they force all vehicles off the road it abides by the Constitution..

    At this junction I had to gain more time for a defense, and the prosecutor was pushing very hard for a trial at this point because she knew the information she provided through discovery gave me nothing to defend. I was able to out-talk the prosecutor in front of the judge and half a dozen other cops and won the argument for a postponement.

    I want to point out that because I was defending myself and pleading not guilty.. Each and every time I went to court.. I was the absolute last case to go.. I had to sit through HOURS of waiting through all the other people who were pleading guilty, or who had counsel... Its a big revenue circle jerk that makes a small business owner kinda envious tbh. Also because I was somewhat a curiousity to the other officers in the court, they would all stand in front by the judge and look at me when I would plead my case.. SO it was uncomfortable to say the least.

    Anyway, after this incident with the prosecutor, I had heard through the grapevine (i work with cops) that she was super pissed off at me and was going to nail me to the wall, blah blah...

    However, when I came back I was prepared. And I was confident and relaxed. (My biggest problem is being nervous in this environment so I took 50mg iodine before I went to court knowing after so many hours it would take effect)

    Prosecutor blinked.

    As I sat right behind the prosecutor for hours waiting for my case to be called, I could definitely see she was nervous everytime she looked my way. At this point an officer called me outside who was a friend of a friend of mine. He wanted to know exactly what my argument was going to be.. (They definitely did not follow their own rules, and I was prepared to challenge constitutionality at the State's expense.. even if it meant appeal after appeal) However since he was giving me professional courtesy and I didnt want him to be pissed off at our mutual friend, I told him I would agree to the prosecutor's original offer.. which basically got rid of 2 tickets excepting the cell phone. I met with the officer who actually sited me and he explained that he had a cousin who got killed by a drunk driver and thats why he takes the DUI checkpoint so seriously.. I told him that I too had a cousin who was killed by a drunk driver and my cousin was also a cop. Also being related to Ben Franklin I get real serious about defending the Constitution, and even mentioned my Grandpa Franklin grew up in a farm in this particular town.

    Anyway, when I came back into the court room, I went next..(they said they didnt want me to wait anymore because I had waited long enough) 2 out of 3 tickets were dropped. Plus all of the late fees and charges were dropped as well as the fees for the ticket happening in a safety corridor. My cost $110.

    Now although I was prepared to engage in a long court battle, I knew my interpretation of the Constitution was 180 degrees different than the cops, the prosecutor., and the judge.. At one point during one of our meetings the judge remarked that he didnt know where in the Constitution that DUI checkpoints were illegal, so I slipped my hardbound Constitution out of his cover and prepared to speak and I saw his eyebrows and mouth open wide.. but the prosecutor cut him off and changed the topic before I could bring up the point.

    THis would have been a nightmare for them because the State would have paid for my defense to strike down their own laws, however it was also becoming a nightmare for me because as this had been going on for months, It got to be a big pain in the ass because of the amount of effort required and the diminishing returns available even if I won... On top of this, during the period where the trial was getting postponed all the time, I was pulled over just about ever couple days (never got a ticket of course)... I didnt realize it until the court case was over, but the police using their automatic scanners would read my license plate and see that I had a pending court date that was from December.. They would pull me over thinking there was a bench warrant for me.. some would even comment, you know you got unpaid ticket from December... Well of course I do, because Im innocent until proven guilty...

    To be honest, once I was able to outsmart a prosecutor in front of a judge, it became rather easy to talk my way out of any tickets.

    Strange coincidence that this thread has been bumped now because 2 days ago, Saturday night I was passenger with my friend driving and we were following the same highway where the checkpoint was last year and sure enough there were the ficticious road signs that said "ROAD WORK AHEAD" along with a burning road flare.. I told her it was a checkpoint.. so we and another car detoured around it.. Once you pass the point of no return theyll have a sign that says CHECKPOINT..

    So just another tip, ANYTIME you see road work signs or construction signs and they have road flares them, its a ruse... Road flares are temporary lighting for a checkpoint thats up for a few hours... real construction crews will used spot lights or blinking safety lights...
    LOL!! here in NY I see those checkpoints all the time....and they are NOT labeled construction.....they are clearly labeled checkpoint or police checkpoint. I live close to the border though so who knows.....maybe theyre looking for a drug runner or terror suspect. Then again I guessI coulook at everything like its a conspiracy. I guess I could live my life in total fear of the fed and cops.....but since I know many of them and have even trained with them.....I know the ground truth.....Your a funny dude Mike Mitrosky!

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronnyman View Post
    so who knows.....maybe theyre looking for a drug runner or terror suspect....
    Except they're not looking for anyone. They're sitting in one spot waiting for the criminals to approach them. That will not get it done.



    I know the ground truth.....
    The truth is that these roadblocks do not work. They are less successful than saturation patrols when it comes to apprehending lawbreakers. The data also shows that they do not deter drunk driving.

    The simple rule of math is that randomness does not work. You are witnessing nothing but lazy law enforcement.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    ...I believe that when the government is capable of doing a thing, it will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    which one of yall fuckers wrote the "ron paul" racist news letters
    Quote Originally Posted by Dforkus View Post
    Zippy's posts are a great contribution.




    Disrupt, Deny, Deflate. Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3): http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...eptive-members



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  14. #41
    Chester Copperpot
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronnyman View Post
    Im talking about texting or cell phone use.....and Yes....some cars On the street need to be checked every year because there are many with bald tires, bad wheel bearings...etc...etc...etc. I see un safe cars on the road all the time.
    In NJ the inspection stations dont check any of that.. In fact its the car owner's responsibility to make sure their car is in good working order. As it should be.

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronnyman View Post
    Im talking about texting or cell phone use
    The OP was sitting idle and was using his phone to record.

    .....and Yes....some cars On the street need to be checked every year because there are many with bald tires, bad wheel bearings....

    Never saw a roadblock or inspection yet checking wheel bearings. Perhaps inspections should expand to cover brake pads, axle fatigue cracks, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    ...I believe that when the government is capable of doing a thing, it will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    which one of yall fuckers wrote the "ron paul" racist news letters
    Quote Originally Posted by Dforkus View Post
    Zippy's posts are a great contribution.




    Disrupt, Deny, Deflate. Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3): http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...eptive-members

  16. #43
    Chester Copperpot
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
    The OP was sitting idle and was using his phone to record.




    Never saw a roadblock or inspection yet checking wheel bearings. Perhaps inspections should expand to cover brake pads, axle fatigue cracks, etc.
    The govt really got their money's worth when they indoctrinated ronnyboy.. He truly believes the govt is only here to help people.. Honestly and truly that is his innermost belief about government.... Anybody who doesnt comply is a trouble maker or a commie, or has something to hide.

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Mitrosky View Post
    The govt really got their money's worth when they indoctrinated ronnyboy.. He truly believes the govt is only here to help people.. Honestly and truly that is his innermost belief about government.... Anybody who doesnt comply is a trouble maker or a commie, or has something to hide.
    He says he trained with police. Probably the same lazy ones who sit at roadblocks eating their pizza.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    ...I believe that when the government is capable of doing a thing, it will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    which one of yall fuckers wrote the "ron paul" racist news letters
    Quote Originally Posted by Dforkus View Post
    Zippy's posts are a great contribution.




    Disrupt, Deny, Deflate. Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3): http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...eptive-members

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by juvanya View Post
    You cant win a jury trial in New Jersey unless you are very clearly innocent. This is one of the most pro-government states, Democrat or Republican, in the entire country, and it has been since the War for Independence. New Jersey was a notorious Tory state, and even had the estranged Tory son of Ben Franklin as governor.

    However, you can fight traffic tickets fairly easily with the right know how. At a minimum, you can get this reduced easily. If you are lucky, and can probe the right angles, you can get it all tossed. There is a fellow, I think Marc Stevens, who writes and speaks a lot about how to fight in traffic court. Its all a racket and has no legal basis. I think he said 75% of the time, they get you the heck out of court asap as soon as they realize what you are up to. There is some line of questioning you can go thru that reveals a contradiction, and that forces the case to be dismissed. I am not entirely sure how it works, and I havent looked at the site in awhile, but its really fascinating and informative. There are even court videos. I have never done it, but considering how successful ticket fights are even without this stuff, its no stretch. There is also the possibility that the cop who is the witness wont show up, and usually after a postponement or two, the judge tells the prosecutor to stuff it. Cops hate showing up at court over stupid stuff. Judges also hate stupid stuff. Just be prepared.

    Regarding DUI checkpoints, they appear to be easy to get out of if you appear sober and make it clear that you are not easy pickings. Like all predators, they want the peons and its easier to just let you go then to waste resources and time fighting this.



    Now, you have to wonder what would happen if multiple people at a checkpoint refused to comply simultaneously.

    This is also an example of why dashcams are useful and why every libertarian, or really everyone should have one in their car. One facing out and one facing the window. Literally, for the price of a traffic ticket, you can set this up and probably get out of any ticket.
    I read a book about William Franklin recently. I'd be surprised if he'd be OK with the level of tyranny that's in New Jersey today. I mostly agree with your point, just wanted to throw that out there. Of course, its impossible to KNOW, but based on his nuanced response to the comparatively mild freedom violations in 1775, I think he'd be flat out opposed to Demopublican government today.

  19. #46
    Chester Copperpot
    Member

    The William Franklin conjecture is an interesting supposition. Its hard to say how people 200 years ago would deal with current events of today..I know people who consider Ben to be quite the tory himself...Id like to think that compared to what was going on back then, the overstep of govt would be shocking to them... Even guys like Hamilton who loved the central bank might be shocked to see what the hell the federal reserve has become... FWIW, William Franklin's royal governor's mansion (the Proprietary House) is about 5 minutes from me... IF any of you are ever stopping through NJ Id be happy to take you there for a visit..

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Mitrosky View Post
    The William Franklin conjecture is an interesting supposition. Its hard to say how people 200 years ago would deal with current events of today..I know people who consider Ben to be quite the tory himself...Id like to think that compared to what was going on back then, the overstep of govt would be shocking to them... Even guys like Hamilton who loved the central bank might be shocked to see what the hell the federal reserve has become... FWIW, William Franklin's royal governor's mansion (the Proprietary House) is about 5 minutes from me... IF any of you are ever stopping through NJ Id be happy to take you there for a visit..

    I think there's a valid case to be made that freedom actually declined because the Founders did what they did. I don't really buy the argument that being a Tory automatically means being anti-freedom. That said, I do have a number of problems with the ideology of both of the Franklins after reading about them. Both of them were very pragmatist and at least somewhat legal positivist, while I am idealist, anarchist, and completely opposed to the idea of legal positivism. As a moral question America unquestionably had the right to secede. But should they have? I'm not really sure.

  21. #48
    You won't get a jury trial for a summary offense. Hell, in PA they don't even give you a prosecutor. It's just you, the local magistrate, and the cop who wrote the ticket.



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