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Thread: Court hears case over gay wedding cake

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.No. View Post
    You can just as easily say that if you don't want to respect the norms and laws of the place your business is set up, feel free to set up your business elsewhere.
    YEAH.
    Like SOMALIA.
    Ya frikkin' anarchists.

    "Mu-uh roooaaads uber alles...uber alles mu-uh-uh roads."
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus



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  3. #32
    SCOTUS needs to get this decision right. The sheer arrogance of those that would command the baker to make a cake against his will deserves a bullet.



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Yes, they are both wrong, anti-discrimination laws amount to slavery and it is not a bad thing to choose not to follow bad laws. It may result in a negative outcome, so I don't necessarily recommend breaking bad laws, but it certainly is not immoral to break unjust laws.
    Slavery? No one is forcing the guy to be a baker. All we are saying that if he wants to be a baker, there are certain rules he has to follow.

    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    What if this guy is right, and he is following God's commandments by not baking a gay wedding cake? You are trying to deny him entrance into heaven? That seems a lot worse to me than even the Nuremberg laws which are terrestrial laws with terrestrial outcomes.

    Of course, I don't think he is right about that, but he has every right to believe what he does and he has every right to bake cakes for whoever he wants.
    This is why I mentioned that this is a distraction. Taxes and regulations have real consequences. They really stifle businesses, growth, etc. But preventing people from being racist or bigoted doesn't do the same; if anything, removing those kinds of barriers enhances productivity. Like you mentioned, his concerns about "God's commandments" are utter bogus. I mean, you could easily flip this. What if a guy believes that God's commandment is that he has to force people to live a Christian way of life? What if he uses government to do so? If you try and stop him, you are denying him entrance to heaven! Wouldn't that be a terrible thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Here's an example of the slippery slope anti-discrimination laws are creating.

    I am helping a friend rent out a room on craigslist. In the ad, I want to put that it is for single occupants only. Craigslist says I can't do that, because it is discriminating against families. There is no way in hell my friend is going to rent this single room out to an entire $#@!ing family. So instead of filtering people out by telling them up front that the room is for a single occupant, you have to get a bunch of emails from families or couples who want to rent out a single room.
    Sure, there are poor applications of the principle, but that shouldn't mean throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Some traffic laws are not good, but that doesn't mean all of them are bad!

    Plus, your buddy is basically complaining that he has to screen his emails. Cry me a river. Now, I would still say that when it comes to renting out your own private property, you should be able to rent it to whoever you want, at whatever price, only because of the personal nature of renting out living space. There is no hard rule...I'd also say that craigslist should allow you to post your listing as you want it. I think that it gets trickier with larger housing developers that claim EO or to be non-discriminatory...then I'd want more transparency.

    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Additionally, if there are 2 girls living in an apartment and they want to rent a room out to another girl, they can't put that in their craigslist ad because that is sexual discrimination. Even if they say there are two girls living there, the post can get flagged and taken down, I've seen it before. Craigslist recommends describing the premises, not the people who live there or the type of people they desire to live there.

    Can't you see how this is seriously getting to the point of insanity?
    I singled this out because I'm not sure this is against CL policy. I've definitely put gender restrictions on my postings.

    SJWism etc. is getting insane (it is just the balance swinging one way after having swung in the other way for a long time; arc of history is long and all that), but that doesn't mean you toss out all of it.

    I mean, there is a point to be made on why some people are planting their flag on this issue. From the colonial era to the 1960s, states had individual laws dictating how businesses could behave. No discrimination based on religion. No discrimination based on land-holding status. No discrimination based on beard length (yes, really). Criminilization of interracial marriage. Criminilization of homosexual acts. Criminilazation of serving a woman.

    Yet, where were people protesting these unjust laws? Where were people talking about private property rights, freedom, liberty, etc? Then you have the Civil Rights act, and all of a sudden, these people come out of the woodwork. Now you try to have equal protection for gays, and the same people are out in force. Those who did not lift a finger to help with civil rights or gay marriage, are claiming to be principled!

  6. #34
    Title: Video puts Muslim bakeries, florists in gay-rights spotlight


    By Valerie Richardson - The Washington Times - Sunday, April 5, 2015

    Muslim bakers and florists have flown under the media radar during the recent uproar over Christian-owned businesses and gay rights, but a hidden-camera video may have changed that.

    The video showing Muslim bakers in Michigan reluctant to bake a cake for a gay wedding went viral last weekend, snaring more than 2.2 million views in three days and igniting debate over whether Christian business owners are being singled out for lawsuits, complaints and media focus.

    ***

    In the video, Mr. Crowder asks for a wedding cake with the message, “Ben and Steven forever.” Some employees refer him elsewhere. One baker shakes his head and says, “No, no, I don’t want it,” apparently referring to the cake-baking job.

    “Many of the Muslim bakeries were kind enough and willing to serve us, but many of them were not,” Mr. Crowder said.

    More at link...http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...n-gay-rights-/
    ..
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    ...I believe that when the government is capable of doing a thing, it will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    which one of yall fuckers wrote the "ron paul" racist news letters
    Quote Originally Posted by Dforkus View Post
    Zippy's posts are a great contribution.




    Disrupt, Deny, Deflate. Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3): http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...eptive-members

  7. #35
    Where was the fake news, mainstream media when Moslem bakeries refused such cakes?


    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    ...I believe that when the government is capable of doing a thing, it will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    which one of yall fuckers wrote the "ron paul" racist news letters
    Quote Originally Posted by Dforkus View Post
    Zippy's posts are a great contribution.




    Disrupt, Deny, Deflate. Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3): http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...eptive-members

  8. #36
    Stop being a wussy. If someone does not want my business, then I don't beg them for it. I go to their competition. I give the rejecting merchant a F*ck you! to boot. I don't cry or force them through government.

    These cake losers crying to government need to man up. They need the swift kick in the ass they never got. There is no such thing as "gay rights." You don't have a "right" to your cake. Guess that logic is useless for today's progressive.
    Last edited by NorthCarolinaLiberty; 06-26-2017 at 09:13 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    ...I believe that when the government is capable of doing a thing, it will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    which one of yall fuckers wrote the "ron paul" racist news letters
    Quote Originally Posted by Dforkus View Post
    Zippy's posts are a great contribution.




    Disrupt, Deny, Deflate. Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3): http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...eptive-members

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
    Where was the fake news, mainstream media when Moslem bakeries refused such cakes?



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  10. #38




    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    ...I believe that when the government is capable of doing a thing, it will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    which one of yall fuckers wrote the "ron paul" racist news letters
    Quote Originally Posted by Dforkus View Post
    Zippy's posts are a great contribution.




    Disrupt, Deny, Deflate. Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3): http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...eptive-members

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.No. View Post
    Slavery? No one is forcing the guy to be a baker. All we are saying that if he wants to be a baker, there are certain rules he has to follow.



    This is why I mentioned that this is a distraction. Taxes and regulations have real consequences. They really stifle businesses, growth, etc. But preventing people from being racist or bigoted doesn't do the same; if anything, removing those kinds of barriers enhances productivity. Like you mentioned, his concerns about "God's commandments" are utter bogus. I mean, you could easily flip this. What if a guy believes that God's commandment is that he has to force people to live a Christian way of life? What if he uses government to do so? If you try and stop him, you are denying him entrance to heaven! Wouldn't that be a terrible thing?



    Sure, there are poor applications of the principle, but that shouldn't mean throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Some traffic laws are not good, but that doesn't mean all of them are bad!

    Plus, your buddy is basically complaining that he has to screen his emails. Cry me a river. Now, I would still say that when it comes to renting out your own private property, you should be able to rent it to whoever you want, at whatever price, only because of the personal nature of renting out living space. There is no hard rule...I'd also say that craigslist should allow you to post your listing as you want it. I think that it gets trickier with larger housing developers that claim EO or to be non-discriminatory...then I'd want more transparency.



    I singled this out because I'm not sure this is against CL policy. I've definitely put gender restrictions on my postings.

    SJWism etc. is getting insane (it is just the balance swinging one way after having swung in the other way for a long time; arc of history is long and all that), but that doesn't mean you toss out all of it.

    I mean, there is a point to be made on why some people are planting their flag on this issue. From the colonial era to the 1960s, states had individual laws dictating how businesses could behave. No discrimination based on religion. No discrimination based on land-holding status. No discrimination based on beard length (yes, really). Criminilization of interracial marriage. Criminilization of homosexual acts. Criminilazation of serving a woman.

    Yet, where were people protesting these unjust laws? Where were people talking about private property rights, freedom, liberty, etc? Then you have the Civil Rights act, and all of a sudden, these people come out of the woodwork. Now you try to have equal protection for gays, and the same people are out in force. Those who did not lift a finger to help with civil rights or gay marriage, are claiming to be principled!

    How do you feel about bestiality or necrophilia? Can I make a business bake me a cake with that expressed on it too?
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!

    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  12. #40
    Chester Copperpot
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.No. View Post
    One way to see it is that Colorado already has laws that force public accomodations to serve people regardless of that persons's status. I'm not sure why the Colorado baker thinks he is above the law. Plus, equal protection and all that.
    Its a PRIVATE bakery... ITs not public...



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.No. View Post
    Slavery? No one is forcing the guy to be a baker. All we are saying that if he wants to be a baker, there are certain rules he has to follow.
    Commie.
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's a balance between appeasing his supporters, appeasing the deep state and reaching his own goals.
    ~Resident Badgiraffe




  15. #42
    Chester Copperpot
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.No. View Post
    Slavery? No one is forcing the guy to be a baker. All we are saying that if he wants to be a baker, there are certain rules he has to follow.



    This is why I mentioned that this is a distraction. Taxes and regulations have real consequences. They really stifle businesses, growth, etc. But preventing people from being racist or bigoted doesn't do the same; if anything, removing those kinds of barriers enhances productivity. Like you mentioned, his concerns about "God's commandments" are utter bogus. I mean, you could easily flip this. What if a guy believes that God's commandment is that he has to force people to live a Christian way of life? What if he uses government to do so? If you try and stop him, you are denying him entrance to heaven! Wouldn't that be a terrible thing?



    Sure, there are poor applications of the principle, but that shouldn't mean throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Some traffic laws are not good, but that doesn't mean all of them are bad!

    Plus, your buddy is basically complaining that he has to screen his emails. Cry me a river. Now, I would still say that when it comes to renting out your own private property, you should be able to rent it to whoever you want, at whatever price, only because of the personal nature of renting out living space. There is no hard rule...I'd also say that craigslist should allow you to post your listing as you want it. I think that it gets trickier with larger housing developers that claim EO or to be non-discriminatory...then I'd want more transparency.



    I singled this out because I'm not sure this is against CL policy. I've definitely put gender restrictions on my postings.

    SJWism etc. is getting insane (it is just the balance swinging one way after having swung in the other way for a long time; arc of history is long and all that), but that doesn't mean you toss out all of it.

    I mean, there is a point to be made on why some people are planting their flag on this issue. From the colonial era to the 1960s, states had individual laws dictating how businesses could behave. No discrimination based on religion. No discrimination based on land-holding status. No discrimination based on beard length (yes, really). Criminilization of interracial marriage. Criminilization of homosexual acts. Criminilazation of serving a woman.

    Yet, where were people protesting these unjust laws? Where were people talking about private property rights, freedom, liberty, etc? Then you have the Civil Rights act, and all of a sudden, these people come out of the woodwork. Now you try to have equal protection for gays, and the same people are out in force. Those who did not lift a finger to help with civil rights or gay marriage, are claiming to be principled!
    just as long as its not crazy vegans who want a cake.. all the vegans should be rounded up and wiped out.

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.No. View Post
    One way to see it is that Colorado already has laws that force public accomodations to serve people regardless of that persons's status. I'm not sure why the Colorado baker thinks he is above the law. Plus, equal protection and all that.
    Separation of church and state. Freedom of association. And all that.

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.No. View Post
    Slavery? No one is forcing the guy to be a baker. All we are saying that if he wants to be a baker, there are certain rules he has to follow.

    !
    "We" is always the anti-freedom position.

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.No. View Post
    Slavery? No one is forcing the guy to be a baker. All we are saying that if he wants to be a baker, there are certain rules he has to follow.

    !
    Who is "we"? All that statement brings from me is a hearty $#@! you. Count me out of your group.
    "The Patriarch"

  19. #46
    If the Court allows that a seller MUST sell to someone, then they can easily make the argument that a buyer MUST buy from someone.

    FRN's are simply a medium of exchange - you are trading the fruits of your labor for the fruits of someone else's labor. There is no difference between the buyer and seller. In this case, the baker is choosing not use his cake to buy FRN's from this person. The reason or justification for his decision doesn't matter. It's stupid to even question it.

    If the Court screws this up, then it won't be long until they force YOU to buy goods from certain people. You want a coat? Better hope the government doesn't find out why you chose one store over another! And certain special interests will most definitely use this to their advantage.

    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    If the Court allows that a seller MUST sell to someone, then they can easily make the argument that a buyer MUST buy from someone.

    FRN's are simply a medium of exchange - you are trading the fruits of your labor for the fruits of someone else's labor. There is no difference between the buyer and seller. In this case, the baker is choosing not use his cake to buy FRN's from this person. The reason or justification for his decision doesn't matter. It's stupid to even question it.

    If the Court screws this up, then it won't be long until they force YOU to buy goods from certain people. You want a coat? Better hope the government doesn't find out why you chose one store over another! And certain special interests will most definitely use this to their advantage.

    Does health insurance mandates strike a bell?

  21. #48
    As a new business owner I've already been through people who want to hire me but I didn't want to work for them.

    I think the mistake the baker made was letting his reasons be known why he was refusing service.

    He could have simply just said no and left it at that. No reason to insult the people by explaining it to them why not. You aren't legally required to answer questions from people and if they persisted and made a scene, you could have them removed from your shop.

    Let the snowflakes down easy so hopefully they don't break.
    No - No - No - No
    2016



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Is it expecting too much for them to finally assert that a business can refuse service to anyone for any reason? That it takes two parties to exchange something? That one part doesn't automatically give up their rights because they're exchanging their product or service for FRN's?

    Yeah - probably too much to ask.
    Yeah, that's what bothers me about the whole "religious freedom" argument made by the right. Why limit freedom to just "religious" freedom? Why can't we have freedom in general?

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
    Where was the fake news, mainstream media when Moslem bakeries refused such cakes?


    I disagree with that video. I don't see the difference between refusing to bake a gay cake and refusing to sell a cake to a black guy. Either way the owner is being forced to enter into a contract by the state.

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Does health insurance mandates strike a bell?
    Similar, yes. Although, in that case they didn't force you to buy insurance from a certain carrier. (Just one on an approved list.)

    Imagine if a solicitor came to you and asked you to buy something - and you turned him down. You better have a good reason and the ability to prove it.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    If the Court allows that a seller MUST sell to someone, then they can easily make the argument that a buyer MUST buy from someone.
    Except they won't because most voters don't own a business. Democracy is all about sticking it to the rich in return for votes.

  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    Except they won't because most voters don't own a business. Democracy is all about sticking it to the rich in return for votes.
    The point of that post is that EVERYONE is both a buyer and seller at the same time. Every time you make an exchange, you give something and get something. Doesn't matter which side of the transaction you're on. You're both getting something and giving something.

    It's not a stretch to suggest that if you can force someone to sell to someone against their will, you can also force someone to buy. Use the example of a door-to-door vacuum salesman. If you decide not to buy from him, perhaps because he's gay - first, you're an idiot - but second, he could say you discriminated against him and win. Because the precedent would have been set.

    As to "democracy is about sticking it to the rich", I'm not sure I'm seeing what you're seeing. If anything, our democracy is about making it look like you're sticking it to the rich while giving them lots of favors and protections, thereby making them even richer.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    The point of that post is that EVERYONE is both a buyer and seller at the same time. Every time you make an exchange, you give something and get something. Doesn't matter which side of the transaction you're on. You're both getting something and giving something.

    It's not a stretch to suggest that if you can force someone to sell to someone against their will, you can also force someone to buy. Use the example of a door-to-door vacuum salesman. If you decide not to buy from him, perhaps because he's gay - first, you're an idiot - but second, he could say you discriminated against him and win. Because the precedent would have been set.

    As to "democracy is about sticking it to the rich", I'm not sure I'm seeing what you're seeing. If anything, our democracy is about making it look like you're sticking it to the rich while giving them lots of favors and protections, thereby making them even richer.
    Do you have any example where the rich have special laws in their favor? When I say rich I'm talking about people getting rich in the private sector. I can think of a few really bad laws that discriminate terribly against the rich. Progressive taxation. Anti trust laws. Anti discrimination laws. Don't many of the civil rights laws target businesses with more than 50 employees?

    One thing that bothers me about your post is that you are saying anti discrimination laws are bad because they could potentially be used against "buyers", in other words "us". But that implies it's ok now because it's only be used against the evil rich.
    Last edited by Madison320; 06-27-2017 at 11:47 AM.

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    Do you have any example where the rich have special laws in their favor?
    Bill in Congress Would Limit Crony Capitalism in Sports

    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

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    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

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  30. #56
    Yet another distraction piece from the MSM sausage factory, and it looks like so many on this forum are just eating it up... :/



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  32. #57
    That's true but I'll bet the corporation that owns the stadium still pays more net in taxes than millions of poor people. On top of that I'm pretty sure individual welfare (SS, Medicare, etc) dwarfs corporate welfare(farm subsidies, stadiums, etc). Probably hundreds of times more spent on individual welfare.

    It's not the Illuminati or the Rothchilds, or the Freemasons that control things, it's the average voter who wants free stuff.

  33. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    That's true but I'll bet the corporation that owns the stadium still pays more net in taxes than millions of poor people. On top of that I'm pretty sure individual welfare (SS, Medicare, etc) dwarfs corporate welfare(farm subsidies, stadiums, etc). Probably hundreds of times more spent on individual welfare.

    It's not the Illuminati or the Rothchilds, or the Freemasons that control things, it's the average voter who wants free stuff.
    LOL What percentage of the budget is the DoD? Most of which is waste, fraud and abuse. Not to mention the rest of the budget.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  34. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.No. View Post
    Slavery? No one is forcing the guy to be a baker. All we are saying that if he wants to be a baker, there are certain rules he has to follow.
    The federal government can never, ever come after a private citizen and force him to agree with an idealogy in order to do business--especially when deeply held religious beliefs are involved.

    Gary Johnson tried this path. Didn't work.
    #NashvilleStrong

    “I’m a doctor. That’s a baby.”~~~Dr. Manny Sethi

  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    LOL What percentage of the budget is the DoD? Most of which is waste, fraud and abuse. Not to mention the rest of the budget.
    That's a good point but SS and Medicare are double the military budget. And I'm guessing that most of the military budget goes to salaries not a couple rich guys.

    The laws favor the poor and middle class and there's a huge transfer of wealth from the rich to the poor in this country. It's called socialism. Do you dispute that?

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