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Thread: Court hears case over gay wedding cake

  1. #1

    Court hears case over gay wedding cake

    DENVER (AP) -- A Colorado baker who refused to make a wedding cake for a same-sex ceremony should not be forced to violate his religious beliefs, his attorney told a judge deciding whether the cake-maker should be made to accommodate gay couples. But an attorney representing a gay couple countered Wednesday that the baker's faith doesn't give him a right to discriminate.

    At issue in the complaint from David Mullins and Charlie Craig against Masterpiece Cakeshop in suburban Denver is whether religious freedom can protect a business from discrimination allegations from gay couples.

    Mullins and Craig wanted to buy a cake last year, but when one of the shop owners, Jack Phillips, found out the cake was to celebrate a gay wedding, he turned the couple of away and cited his religious faith.

    "(His) faith, whatever it may have to say about marriage for same-sex couples or the expressive power of a wedding cake, does not give the respondents a license to discriminate," Amanda Goad, an attorney with the American Civil Liberties Union, told an administrative judge in Colorado's Civil Rights Commission.

    Phillips' attorney, Nicolle Martin, said her client shouldn't be forced to ignore his Christian faith while running the business he's had for nearly 40 years. She said Phillips feels "privileged to design and create the cakes that celebrate the joyous events of people's lives."

    "He believes this is a vocation chosen for him by God, and as a man of God, Jack Phillips lives by certain biblical principles," Martin said.

    She said Phillips faces fines if the court rules against him and he continues to refuse to make wedding cakes for gay couples.

    Judge Robert N. Spencer said he would issue a ruling later this week.

    The ACLU in Colorado filed the discrimination complaint on behalf of Mullins, 29, and Craig, 33, who were married in Massachusetts and planned to celebrate their wedding in Colorado.

    A similar case is pending in Washington state, where a florist is accused of refusing service for a same-sex wedding. In New Mexico, the state Supreme Court ruled in August that an Albuquerque business was wrong to decline to photograph a same-sex couple's commitment ceremony.

    Colorado has a constitutional ban against gay marriage, but allows civil unions. The civil union law, which passed earlier this year, does not provide religious protections for businesses — a provision Republicans wanted. Democrats argued that such a provision would give businesses cover to discriminate in violation of state law.

    "Here, the discrimination was based on who the customers were, and that's what Colorado clearly prohibits," Goad said.
    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/court-...120808014.html
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  3. #2
    American Civil Liberties Union
    More respect for them lost.
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading

  4. #3
    There's only one wedding cake designer in Denver?

    Just go to someone else.
    Knowledge will forever govern ignorance; and a people who mean to be their own governors must arm themselves with the power which knowledge gives. -James Madison

  5. #4
    Its not about the wedding cake though, Madison. Its about slavery. I wouldn't be surprised if the government paid them "under the table" to do this.
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    More respect for them lost.
    I've never had any respect for them. They're just an arm of the Democratic Party, not a civil liberties organization.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by James Madison View Post
    There's only one wedding cake designer in Denver?

    Just go to someone else.
    That's the rational response. Why would you want to give money to someone who is a discriminatory bigot?

    But that's not the goal of gay marriage activists. The goal is to use the State's monopoly on force to punish people who don't agree with their lifestyle. Some day though they're also going to be on the receiving end of that force too.
    Last edited by EBounding; 12-05-2013 at 12:38 PM.
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  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    Its not about the wedding cake though, Madison. Its about slavery. I wouldn't be surprised if the government paid them "under the table" to do this.
    Oh, I know. Just pointing out the absurdity of the LGBTXYZ movement. I used to not care about who was gay, but anymore I find the movement more and more insufferable.

    This is the equivalent of atheists trying to remove 'God' from the Pledge of Allegiance.
    Knowledge will forever govern ignorance; and a people who mean to be their own governors must arm themselves with the power which knowledge gives. -James Madison

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by James Madison View Post
    This is the equivalent of atheists trying to remove 'God' from the Pledge of Allegiance.
    As opposed to the christians that added it?



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    As opposed to the christians that added it?
    Having 'God' in the Pledge is stupid. Actually the whole Pledge is stupid.

    Don't miss the point here -- learn to pick your battles.
    Knowledge will forever govern ignorance; and a people who mean to be their own governors must arm themselves with the power which knowledge gives. -James Madison

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by James Madison View Post
    Having 'God' in the Pledge is stupid. Actually the whole Pledge is stupid.

    Don't miss the point here -- learn to pick your battles.
    You're the one that brought it up.

  13. #11
    Wedding cake costs are as follows:
    $129 Heterosexual wedding
    $1290 Gay wedding

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by James Madison View Post
    Oh, I know. Just pointing out the absurdity of the LGBTXYZ movement. I used to not care about who was gay, but anymore I find the movement more and more insufferable.

    This is the equivalent of atheists trying to remove 'God' from the Pledge of Allegiance.

    Exactly.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    You're the one that brought it up.
    Yeah, because it comes off as vindictive and spiteful. Like how the government only 'shutdown' services that people enjoyed.
    Knowledge will forever govern ignorance; and a people who mean to be their own governors must arm themselves with the power which knowledge gives. -James Madison

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by James Madison View Post
    Yeah, because it comes off as vindictive and spiteful. Like how the government only 'shutdown' services that people enjoyed.
    Vindictive and spiteful. Like "marriage is only between one man and one woman" laws which shuts down governmental services that only some people enjoy? As opposed to ending the government in marriage. Or ending the Pledge in government institutions altogether.
    As I said, you were the one that brought it up. I think we both agree that government should stay out of private business and that it should be left up to the property/business owner to serve who they choose.

  17. #15
    Supreme Court to hear case of baker's refusal to make wedding cake for gay couple

    The U.S. Supreme Court announced Monday it will hear the case of a suburban Denver baker who refused to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple on faith-based grounds, in the latest religious freedom case to be considered before the nation's highest court.

    Jack Phillips, owner of Masterpiece Cakeshop, had refused to sell a customized cake for a gay couple's union, claiming a religious exemption to the state's anti-discrimination law.

    State courts had ruled against the businessman.
    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017...ay-couple.html
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  18. #16
    Is it expecting too much for them to finally assert that a business can refuse service to anyone for any reason? That it takes two parties to exchange something? That one part doesn't automatically give up their rights because they're exchanging their product or service for FRN's?

    Yeah - probably too much to ask.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire



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  20. #17
    Jack Phillips, owner of Masterpiece Cakeshop


    Any more questions?

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    More respect for them lost.
    As a Christian you never should have had any, they have been anti-Christ since their founding by communists.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  22. #19
    One way to see it is that Colorado already has laws that force public accomodations to serve people regardless of that persons's status. I'm not sure why the Colorado baker thinks he is above the law. Plus, equal protection and all that.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Is it expecting too much for them to finally assert that a business can refuse service to anyone for any reason? That it takes two parties to exchange something? That one part doesn't automatically give up their rights because they're exchanging their product or service for FRN's?

    Yeah - probably too much to ask.
    ^^^THIS^^^

    Don't need a weather man to know which way the wind blows

  24. #21
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Dr. Ron Paul. "Stand up for what you believe in, even if you are standing alone." - Sophie Magdalena Scholl
    "War is the health of the State." - Randolph Bourne "Freedom is the answer. ... Now, what's the question?" - Ernie Hancock.

  25. #22
    The Case that Should Not Even Go to the Supreme Court
    Laurence M. Vance

    The Supreme Court has said that it will consider in its next term whether a baker unlawfully discriminated against a gay couple by refusing to sell them a wedding cake. This is a case that should have been laughed out of court. In a free society, businesses can discriminate against customers the same way that customers can discriminate against businesses. See my articles on discrimination here.
    https://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog...supreme-court/
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  26. #23
    I am very afraid of this case because Kennedy and Roberts are still on the court.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  27. #24
    This issue always reminds me of one particular time at lunch in NY. I was out buying lunch for my shop which is something pretty common, you make a list and everyone jumps in, and it was always a welcomed escape from work. There was a deli, either Middle-Eastern or Turkish (I was too young and naive to know the difference) that sold the best hot dogs in town. Everyday there was a line out the door for these dogs alone, although they sold all sorts of cuisine native to their culture. One day a well dressed woman came in with her own workplace lunch list which ended with a "ham and American cheese" sandwich. The expression on the clerk's face began to sour and you could tell he took offense to the request but he held it in and corrected her cultural faux pas, "We don't serve ham here." She questioned this in a puzzled tone "what?" and he repeated that they don't serve ham here. She didn't make a fuss nor did she protest, she just flushed with embarrassment and left to go to the deli across the street that did sell ham.

    We used to go to Taco Bell during midnight munchies and ask for ketchup as a joke because it was completely absurd. If you want ketchup go somewhere that has it, pretty simple. I'm not sure why people can't understand how respecting another's right to individuality preserves everyone's lifestyle. Can you imagine calling a Chinese restaurant racist because they refuse to serve you tacos or holding a Catholic wedding at a gay nightclub? The outrage and the uproar would be timeless but what would be the argument if a Christian baker is forced to bake a cake that some idiot couple can easily get elsewhere?

    You have the freedom to participate in every cultural experience there is and it's wonderful to have the option and variety for those experiences. What a shame it would be to force all cultures to conform into a collective because a one-sided issue that's too shallow to see the dangerous precedent of imposing your beliefs onto someone else.
    Last edited by Dangergirl; 06-26-2017 at 02:30 PM.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.No. View Post
    One way to see it is that Colorado already has laws that force public accomodations to serve people regardless of that persons's status. I'm not sure why the Colorado baker thinks he is above the law. Plus, equal protection and all that.
    Hmmm, I wonder if Anne Frank thought she was above the law because she was hiding in an attic
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.No. View Post
    One way to see it is that Colorado already has laws that force public accomodations to serve people regardless of that persons's status. I'm not sure why the Colorado baker thinks he is above the law. Plus, equal protection and all that.
    Some animals are more equal.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Hmmm, I wonder if Anne Frank thought she was above the law because she was hiding in an attic
    You are equating the Nuremberg laws with anti-discrimination laws?

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Dangergirl View Post
    This issue always reminds me of one particular time at lunch in NY. I was out buying lunch for my shop which is something pretty common, you make a list and everyone jumps in, and it was always a welcomed escape from work. There was a deli, either Middle-Eastern or Turkish (I was too young and naive to know the difference) that sold the best hot dogs in town. Everyday there was a line out the door for these dogs alone, although they sold all sorts of cuisine native to their culture. One day a well dressed woman came in with her own workplace lunch list which ended with a "ham and American cheese" sandwich. The expression on the clerk's face began to sour and you could tell he took offense to the request but he held it in and corrected her cultural faux pas, "We don't serve ham here." She questioned this in a puzzled tone "what?" and he repeated that they don't serve ham here. She didn't make a fuss nor did she protest, she just flushed with embarrassment and left to go to the deli across the street that did sell ham.

    We used to go to Taco Bell during midnight munchies and ask for ketchup as a joke because it was completely absurd. If you want ketchup go somewhere that has it, pretty simple. I'm not sure why people can't understand how respecting another's right to individuality preserves everyone's lifestyle. Can you imagine calling a Chinese restaurant racist because they refuse to serve you tacos or holding a Catholic wedding at a gay nightclub? The outrage and the uproar would be timeless but what would be the argument if a Christian baker is forced to bake a cake that some idiot couple can easily get elsewhere?

    You have the freedom to participate in every cultural experience there is and it's wonderful to have the option and variety for those experiences. What a shame it would be to force all cultures to conform into a collective because a one-sided issue that's too shallow to see the dangerous precedent of imposing your beliefs onto someone else.
    I suppose the idea is that a business isn't being forced to do something it doesn't do, but being forced to do something it does. IE, a Chinese restaurant doesn't serve tacos. But they can serve egg rolls to everyone.

    You can just as easily say that if you don't want to respect the norms and laws of the place your business is set up, feel free to set up your business elsewhere.

    In any case, I think this is a distraction. Over time, any company that discriminates on the basis of sexuality is going to go down the tubes, not by government decree, but by simple social norms. Lets focus on reducing taxes and regulations that actually have major impacts on us that silly issues like this.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.No. View Post
    You are equating the Nuremberg laws with anti-discrimination laws?
    Yes, they are both wrong, anti-discrimination laws amount to slavery and it is not a bad thing to choose not to follow bad laws. It may result in a negative outcome, so I don't necessarily recommend breaking bad laws, but it certainly is not immoral to break unjust laws.

    What if this guy is right, and he is following God's commandments by not baking a gay wedding cake? You are trying to deny him entrance into heaven? That seems a lot worse to me than even the Nuremberg laws which are terrestrial laws with terrestrial outcomes.

    Of course, I don't think he is right about that, but he has every right to believe what he does and he has every right to bake cakes for whoever he wants.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.No. View Post
    I suppose the idea is that a business isn't being forced to do something it doesn't do, but being forced to do something it does. IE, a Chinese restaurant doesn't serve tacos. But they can serve egg rolls to everyone.

    You can just as easily say that if you don't want to respect the norms and laws of the place your business is set up, feel free to set up your business elsewhere.

    In any case, I think this is a distraction. Over time, any company that discriminates on the basis of sexuality is going to go down the tubes, not by government decree, but by simple social norms. Lets focus on reducing taxes and regulations that actually have major impacts on us that silly issues like this.
    Here's an example of the slippery slope anti-discrimination laws are creating.

    I am helping a friend rent out a room on craigslist. In the ad, I want to put that it is for single occupants only. Craigslist says I can't do that, because it is discriminating against families. There is no way in hell my friend is going to rent this single room out to an entire $#@!ing family. So instead of filtering people out by telling them up front that the room is for a single occupant, you have to get a bunch of emails from families or couples who want to rent out a single room.

    Besides the minor annoyance, even after leaving the language out you could actually be sued for not renting to someone who emails you if they believe you are discriminating based on their status as a family.

    Additionally, if there are 2 girls living in an apartment and they want to rent a room out to another girl, they can't put that in their craigslist ad because that is sexual discrimination. Even if they say there are two girls living there, the post can get flagged and taken down, I've seen it before. Craigslist recommends describing the premises, not the people who live there or the type of people they desire to live there.

    Can't you see how this is seriously getting to the point of insanity?
    Last edited by dannno; 06-26-2017 at 05:34 PM.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

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