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Thread: Bitcoins: The Second Biggest Ponzi Scheme in History

  1. #1

    Bitcoins: The Second Biggest Ponzi Scheme in History

    Bitcoins: The Second Biggest Ponzi Scheme in History
    Gary North - November 29, 2013

    I hereby make a prediction: Bitcoins will go down in history as the most spectacular private Ponzi scheme in history. It will dwarf anything dreamed of by Bernard Madoff. (It will never rival Social Security, however.)

    To explain my position, I must do two things. First, I will describe the economics of every Ponzi scheme. Second, I will explain the Austrian school of economics' theory of the origin of money. My analysis is strictly economic. As far as I know, it is a legal scheme -- and should be.

    PONZI ECONOMICS

    First, someone who no one has ever heard of before announces that he has discovered a way to make money. In the case of Bitcoins, the claim is literal. The creator literally made what he says is money, or will be money. He made this money out of digits. He made it out of nothing. Think "Federal Reserve wanna-be."

    Second, the individual claims that a particular market provides unexploited arbitrage opportunities. Something is selling too low. If you buy into the program now, the person running the scheme will be able to sell it high on your behalf. So, you will take advantage of the arbitrage opportunity.

    Today, with high-speed trading, arbitrage opportunities last only for a few milliseconds seconds in widely traded markets. Arbitrage opportunities in the commodity futures market last for very short periods. But in the most leveraged and sophisticated of all the futures markets, namely, the currency futures markets, arbitrage opportunities last for so brief a period of time that only high-speed computer programs can take advantage of them.

    The individual who sells the Ponzi scheme makes money by siphoning off a large share of the money coming in. In other words, he does not make the investment. But Bitcoins are unique. The money was siphoned off from the beginning. Somebody owned a good percentage of the original digits. Then, by telling his story, this individual created demand for all of the digits. The dollar-value of his share of the Bitcoins appreciates with the other digits.

    This strategy was described a generation ago by George Goodman, who wrote under the pseudonym of Adam Smith. You can find it in his book, Supermoney. This is done with financial corporations when individuals create a new business, retain a large share of the shares, and then sell the stock to the public. In this sense, Bitcoins is not a Ponzi scheme. It is simply a supermoney scheme.

    The Ponzi aspect of it comes when we look at the justification for Bitcoins. They were sold on the basis that Bitcoins will be an alternative currency. In other words, this will be the money of the future.

    The coins will never be the money of the future. This is my main argument.

    THE AUSTRIAN SCHOOL'S THEORY OF MONEY'S ORIGINS

    The best definition of money was first offered by Austrian economist Carl Menger in 1892. He said that money is the most marketable commodity. This definition was picked up by his disciple, Ludwig von Mises, who presented it in his book, The Theory of Money and Credit, published in 1912.

    In that book, Mises argued, as Menger had before him, that money arises out of market transactions. That which did not function as money before, now functions as money. Something that was valuable for its own sake, most likely gold or silver, becomes valuable for another purpose, namely, the facilitation of exchange. People move from barter to a monetary economy. This increases the division of labor. As more and more people use the money commodity in order to facilitate exchanges, the division of labor extends, and as a result, people's productivity increases. They can specialize. This specialization produces increased output per person, and therefore increased income per person.

    In this scenario, something that had independent value becomes the focus of traders, who find that their ability to buy and sell increases as a result of the use of this commodity. Money develops out of market exchanges. Money was not used for its own sake initially, but it becomes widely used as money as a result of innumerable transactions within the economy. (I discuss this in my chapter in Theory of Money and Fiduciary Media, published by the Mises Institute in 2012.)

    Here is the central fact of money. Money is the product of the market process. It arises out of an unplanned, decentralized process. This takes time. It takes a lot of time. It spreads slowly, as new people discover it as a tool of production, because it increases the size of the market for all goods and services. No one says, "I think I'll invent a new form of money."

    Note: any time you see a proposal of a new form of money, hold on to your old form of money.

    The central benefit of money is its predictable purchasing power. A monetary commodity is not easy to produce. The cost of mining is high. Money is slowly adopted by a large number of participants. These participants use money as a means of exchange. Why? Because it was valuable the day before. They therefore expect it to be valuable the next day. Money has continuity of value. This is not intrinsic value. It is historic value. So, a person can buy money by the sale of goods or services, set this money aside, and re-enter the markets in a different location or in a different time, in the confidence that he will probably be able to buy a similar quantity of goods and services.

    Money is not accumulated for its own sake. It is accumulated to buy future goods and services. It is useful in the facilitation of exchange precisely because its market value varies little over time. It is the predictability of money's market exchange rate that makes it money.

    BITCOINS ARE NOT MONEY

    Now let us look at bitcoins. The market value of one bitcoin has gone from about $2 to $1,000 in a year. This is not money. This commodity is not being bought for its services as money. It is unpredictable to a fault.

    Admittedly, those who got in early on this Ponzi scheme are doing very well. They will probably continue to do well for a time. As more people hear about this investment, which is justified in terms of its future potential as money, more people will buy it. Late-comers are not buying it because they understand its potential as future money, any more than the late investors in Charles Ponzi's scheme thought they were buying into the arbitrage potential of foreign postage stamps. They are buying Bitcoins because we are in the midst of a Ponzi scheme mania. They will continue to buy because they think this time it's different.

    This digital so-called money will not be used to facilitate exchange. Nobody is going to be getting rid of an asset that has moved from $2 to $1,000 in one year in order to buy pizzas. People want to hang onto it, refusing to sell, in the hopes that it will go to $2,000. This is the classic mark of Ponzi scheme psychology. People do not buy the investment for the benefits that the investment provides as an investment, in other words, because it is a capital asset. They buy it only because it has gone up in price. They expect this to continue.

    Here is the Austrian school's theory of money. People buy money because it has not fallen in price. But it has also not gone up in price much, either. It is predictable. Why? Because it is held in reserve by a large number of people over a large geographical area. It has become money through tradition, through experience, and through endless numbers of exchanges on a voluntary basis. It has proven itself in the marketplace as a means of facilitating exchange, and thereby as a means of preserving value over time. This is not the characteristic feature of a Bitcoin. People are not buying it to serve as money; they are buying it because they are in the midst of a mania, and they are gambling that the number of buyers will continue upward forever.

    Here is an economic fact: the number of fools is limited. They are a scarce economic resource. As the price of bitcoins rises, more fools will be lured into the market. But this is a finite market.

    In other words, bitcoins cannot possibly fulfill their supposed purpose: to serve as an unregulated currency unit. Bitcoins are not an alternative currency. They are something you buy in the midst of a mania, and you will sell at some point in order to get back your money. You are thinking of buying Bitcoins, not because Bitcoins will serve as a means of exchange, as originally argued, but because you want to get back lots more money than you paid for them. In other words, Bitcoins are not money; dollars are money. There has been no challenge from Bitcoins to the reign of the dollar.

    JUST SAY NO

    When you see an offer of an investment which inherently cannot possibly exist on its own merit, and yet lots of people are coming into the market to buy the item, you know, without any question, that this is a Ponzi scheme. In other words, people are buying into the program, not because of an arbitrage opportunity, and not because of a capital breakthrough in terms of technology, but because somebody else bought it cheaper yesterday. You buy it today, not because you think it is going to offer a stable value, but because you think you're going to make a bundle of money when more people come into the market. Again, this is the classic mark of a Ponzi scheme.

    In order for Bitcoins to become an alternative currency, there will have to be millions of users of the currency. There will have to be tens of millions of users of the currency. They will have to develop in a market on their merit as money, not as an investment of dollars in order to get more dollars back. It would have to develop through exchange, not bought as an investment. In other words, the free market will have to adopt Bitcoins as a means of increasing the division of labor.

    Bitcoins are not increasing the division of labor. They are bought on the basis that somebody can get into a game of musical chairs. Instead of running out of chairs, leaving one person the great winter, the promoters started with a given number of chairs, and then they hoped that lots would come and bid on the chairs. "If we issue it, they will come." This took place. The promoters creators are now very rich, as measured in dollars.

    The fact of the matter is this: Bitcoins will not increase the division of labor by serving as an alternative currency. Inherently, Bitcoins have made their mark, not on the basis of their stable value in exchange, that is, their value in increasing the division of labor in alternative markets that do not use the dollar. On the contrary, Bitcoins are being purchased for one reason only: to get in on the deal. Buy low; sell high. Buy with what? Dollars. Sell for what? Dollars.

    The mania has destroyed Bitcoins' use as money. Bitcoins are too volatile in price ever to serve as a currency.

    Which is money: dollars or Bitcoins? The answer is obvious: dollars.

    This is a Ponzi scheme.

    WHAT GOES UP COMES DOWN

    This will lead to the ruination of more people than any private Ponzi scheme in history. There will be the poor schnooks to get in at the end, paying perhaps thousands of dollars per Bitcoin. Then the market will unravel. It will unravel for the same reason that all Ponzi schemes have unraveled: not enough new buyers. When the new buyers do not show up in great numbers, the holders will start to dump them. What went up in price, as measured in dollars, the real money, will come down in price.

    This mania is going to be the stuff of best-selling books. This is going to be this stuff of Ph.D. dissertations in economics and psychology. This is going to be the equivalent of Mackay's book, Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds.

    The interesting thing is the mania started among the most technologically sophisticated people on earth: computer techies. The techies who got in early are going to be fabulously wealthy . . . if they sell. But the poor schnooks who come in at the and are going to lose money. Collectively, this will be the greatest single scheme for lots of people losing money that we have ever seen. This Ponzi scheme is not illegal . . . yet. It will spread. It has gone viral.

    Any time you buy an investment, you had better have an exit strategy. There is no exit strategy for Bitcoins.

    You must get out at the top, or you lose your shirt.

    CONCLUSION

    Anytime that anybody tries to sell you an investment, you have to look at it on this basis: "What are the future benefits that this investment will give final consumers?" In other words, how does it serve the final consumer? If it does not serve the final consumer, then it is a Ponzi scheme.

    Bitcoins cannot serve the consumer. There is nothing to consume. The only way that Bitcoins can work to the advantage of the consumer is that they provides the consumer with increased opportunities, based on Bitcoins' function as money. But the fundamental characteristic of money is its relatively stable purchasing power.

    Bitcoins will never achieve this. It is a mania going up. It will be a mania coming down. It will not increase the division of labor, because people will recognize it as having been a Ponzi scheme, and they will not again buy it. They will not use it in exchange. Companies will not sell goods and services based on Bitcoins. Bitcoins have to have stable purchasing power if they are to serve as money, and they will never, ever achieve stable purchasing power.

    Whenever somebody tries to sell you an investment that is based on the economic analysis of a market -- an analysis that cannot possibly be true -- do not buy the investment. This is a simple rule. I adhere to this rule.

    There has to be an economic justification for a capital investment, and there is no economic justification of buying Bitcoins as an alternative currency. That was how Bitcoins were initially sold, and it was impossible as an economic concept from the beginning. The Austrian theory of money shows why.

    I do not invest in capital that has no economic justification other than the greater fool theory. There are too few fools to keep the scheme going.

    Bitcoins are not illegal. They should not be made illegal. They should merely be avoided.



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  3. #2
    I agree.
    "When a portion of wealth is transferred from the person who owns it—without his consent and without compensation, and whether by force or by fraud—to anyone who does not own it, then I say that property is violated; that an act of plunder is committed." - Bastiat : The Law

    "nothing evil grows in alcohol" ~ @presence

    "I mean can you imagine what it would be like if firemen acted like police officers? They would only go into a burning house only if there's a 100% chance they won't get any burns. I mean, you've got to fully protect thy self first." ~ juleswin

  4. #3
    I don't agree, I believe bitcoin will continue to help facilitate more free market transactions outside of the government controlled monetary paradigm.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  5. #4
    Oh look, more sour grapes by another libertarian. Surprise, surprise.

    and not because of a capital breakthrough in terms of technology
    Really Gary? You old wrinkled $#@!.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Paladin69 View Post
    Oh look, more sour grapes by another libertarian. Surprise, surprise.



    Really Gary? You old wrinkled $#@!.
    Good argument, you've convinced me. /sarc
    "When a portion of wealth is transferred from the person who owns it—without his consent and without compensation, and whether by force or by fraud—to anyone who does not own it, then I say that property is violated; that an act of plunder is committed." - Bastiat : The Law

    "nothing evil grows in alcohol" ~ @presence

    "I mean can you imagine what it would be like if firemen acted like police officers? They would only go into a burning house only if there's a 100% chance they won't get any burns. I mean, you've got to fully protect thy self first." ~ juleswin

  7. #6
    People sure like to outline the criteria for money as an argument against bitcoin, but the thing is those criteria were all created before the internet even existed. If you don't see something equivalent to 'intrinsic value' in bitcoin and the way people are able to use it to get around the system then I believe you lack the creative imagination to see the future of humanity until it smacks you in the face.

    I'm not even saying that bitcoin will definetely be successful, but to deny that it could be doesn't make any sense when there has never been anything like this before so you can't exactly look at historical precedent to see what might happen. All you can do is talk about criteria that were invented like 100 years ago.
    Last edited by dannno; 12-01-2013 at 12:26 AM.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  8. #7
    Shemdogg,

    Please post a tl;dr of...whatever the hell you were trying to say. You're posting on an internet forum, not writing a goddamn Wikipedia article. I've got $#@! to do, man, and I'd really like to understand your point of view.

    One sentence, please. Jesus.
    “The people of the various provinces are strictly forbidden to have in their possession any swords, bows, spears, firearms, or other type of arms. The possession of these elements makes difficult the collection of taxes and dues and tends to permit uprising, therefore, the heads of the provinces, official agents, and deputies are ordered to collect all weapons mentioned above and turn them over to the government.”

    Toyotomi Hideyshi, Shogun, August 29, 1558




  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by NorfolkPCSolutions View Post
    Shemdogg,

    Please post a tl;dr of...whatever the hell you were trying to say. You're posting on an internet forum, not writing a goddamn Wikipedia article. I've got $#@! to do, man, and I'd really like to understand your point of view.

    One sentence, please. Jesus.
    It's an article, by Gary North. I read it.

    Why are jumping on to Shemdogg?

    Here's a link to the article, if you'd like that format better: http://www.lewrockwell.com/2013/11/g...-ponzi-scheme/
    Last edited by ClydeCoulter; 12-01-2013 at 01:05 AM.
    "When a portion of wealth is transferred from the person who owns it—without his consent and without compensation, and whether by force or by fraud—to anyone who does not own it, then I say that property is violated; that an act of plunder is committed." - Bastiat : The Law

    "nothing evil grows in alcohol" ~ @presence

    "I mean can you imagine what it would be like if firemen acted like police officers? They would only go into a burning house only if there's a 100% chance they won't get any burns. I mean, you've got to fully protect thy self first." ~ juleswin



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  11. #9
    Some of his arguments are flawed. People do in fact make purchases with bitcoin. In fact since it's tied to the value of USD - or other national currency - it's not a big deal to buy a pizza with bitcoin. Or a subway sandwich. I could buy a subway meal deal for 0.008 bitcoins.. alright, fine. Hard to notice if you bought a coin's worth.
    By his reasoning that people hold on things that go up rapidly in price, no one ever sells precious metals either. Or any high performing stock like Google.

    Other problems, there is no evidence of Satoshi (The creator of Bitcoin) hording any coins. The blockchain was released with 1 single block mined to get things rolling. In fact someone did an analysis of the 10,000 Bitcoin pizza that was the first transaction. Those 10,000 coins are spread out all over the place as they were not horded. Some people have put significant investments into BTC - the Winklvos twins for one - but that's not a surprise. Kind of like getting in early in any new endeavor.

    There are 11.5 million wallets with coins in them. This doesn't take into account anyone with funds just in like coinbase in a separate wallet. There are already millions of users. There are already millions of users. Bitpay, a popular bitcoin payment processor, did $5 million in just March. I didn't bother to see what that volume has grown to recently.

    How it serves the customer is convenience and is not tied to a banking system that nearly collapsed. Take being able to transfer 140 million bucks for 38 cents like just happened. How is that not a game changing occurrence?

    I'm bored now, so going to stop digging into reputing this.

    Oh wait, the complete cynical side of me says - well heck, if it's the second biggest ponzi scheme and Madoff was 65 billion then we're only 1/5th of the way to the peak. No need to fret until it's over $6000 a coin.
    “…let us teach them that all who draw breath are of equal worth, and that those who seek to press heel upon the throat of liberty, will fall to the cry of FREEDOM!!!” – Spartacus, War of the Damned

    BTC: 1AFbCLYU3G1dkbsSJnk3spWeEwpqYVC2Pq

  12. #10
    Can any of you critics tell me who is behind bitcoin? You'd think they would be out there selling this from the beginning, but no, bitcoin took a few whole years to actually get off the ground, saw a bubble, crashed, and then recovered to meteoric new heights. This is not typical of Ponzi schemes. Secondly, it actually does have some benefits. This isn't even debatable, and if you knew anything about bitcoin, then you would know this is true. There are advantages to using bitcoin.

    Thirdly, bitcoin is NOT a Ponzi scheme. If you want to call it a bad investment, then call it a bad investment and say you will lose your money. Not everything that gets hyped and then crashes is a Ponzi scheme. Not everything that ends up losing people money is a Ponzi scheme. If you really believe it's going to crash, then say it's a bad investment, but it does NOT fit the definition of a Ponzi scheme. The term Ponzi scheme is used in your OP simply for the sake of hyperbole. I demand that you cease using it as such at once.

    A Ponzi scheme is FRAUD. It is, by its very definition, a fraudulent investment. Bitcoin is not fraudulent because everything that it has achieved, it has achieved because of the market. Nobody forced people to buy into it, not once, but twice. Nobody is using the principal from the investments of late buy-ins to pay the interest on the early adopters' investments. A Ponzi scheme necessarily involves deception and fraud. If you want to say that people aren't being completely straightforward (at worst) about what bitcoin offers, that still doesn't mean it's fraudulent. All of the information about what bitcoin IS and what it provides is out there. Most people have already figured out what bitcoin really is, and yet the demand for it continues to rise. This is no accident. The information about bitcoin was available from the beginning and the market has decided it's a worthwhile investment.

    Here's a link for the definition of a Ponzi scheme:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme

    It requires the perpetrators to take from the existing capital collected in the form of investments to pay interest on those investments. It is unsustainable by design. Bitcoin is NOT unsustainable by design. You can argue that it is unsustainable, but it was NOT made that way by design. If everyone continued to believe in bitcoin, it would continue to rise, and the funds would never run out. A Ponzi scheme requires that the funds run out at some point because there are a limited amount of new investors.
    I'm an adventurer, writer and bitcoin market analyst.

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  13. #11
    There is a lot of speculation in bitcoin. But it's value is there. Stefan did a new video on how bitcoins can do financial transactions more efficiently than the financial industry.

    edit: Personally I am waiting for bitcoin to spread without my help. Where there is no risk there is no loss .
    Last edited by silverhandorder; 12-01-2013 at 09:31 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cowlesy View Post
    Americans in general are jedi masters of blaming every other person.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by kpitcher View Post

    Oh wait, the complete cynical side of me says - well heck, if it's the second biggest ponzi scheme and Madoff was 65 billion then we're only 1/5th of the way to the peak. No need to fret until it's over $6000 a coin.
    At that point, Shemdogg will be scurrying to buy some so he doesn't miss out when bitcoin is a mainstream currency.
    I'm an adventurer, writer and bitcoin market analyst.

    Buy my book for $11.49 (reduced):

    Website: http://www.grandtstories.com/

    Twitter: https://twitter.com/LeviGrandt

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  15. #13
    I've said it before, if bitcoin is a Ponzi then so is silver and gold.

    And is this the same Gary North that said:

    In 1980, he forecast rationing of housing and a nuclear war with the Soviet Union. He warned his followers to buy "gold, silver, a safe place outside the major cities."

    Then AIDS became the threat: "In 1992, we will run out of available hospital beds.... The world will eventually panic," he wrote in 1987.
    Now North has found Y2K and a skittish audience receptive to predictions of doom.

    A recent advertisement for his Remnant Review newsletter proclaims: "A bank run like no other will bankrupt banks all over the world in 1999."

    If you fork over $225 for a 24-issue subscription, North will cheerfully equip you with "the tools you need to build untouchable wealth."

    His advice is familiar, if unsurprising: Close your bank accounts, sell your stocks. Buy guns, gold, and grain. Move to a remote cabin where you can survive the collapse of Western civilization, safe from riots and hungry looters.

    "The code is broken. It cannot be fixed. The panic is inevitable. It's a question of when," he wrote on garynorth.com last month.
    http://www.wired.com/culture/lifesty.../1999/01/17193
    Rand Paul 2016

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by kpitcher View Post
    Some of his arguments are flawed.
    I agree. It's a weak and pathetic spiel. It contains too many things to correct, rebut, or refute & I'm not gonna bother. I'm simply going to describe it as a "lemon" of an article, and let the future prove me wrong.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by ronpaulfollower999 View Post
    I've said it before, if bitcoin is a Ponzi then so is silver and gold.

    And is this the same Gary North that said:



    http://www.wired.com/culture/lifesty.../1999/01/17193
    HAHAHAHA!

    Gary North's ideas are more of a Ponzi scheme than bitcoin is. He's selling subscriptions to his own stream of bull$#@! for $225 and he continues to be proven wrong.
    I'm an adventurer, writer and bitcoin market analyst.

    Buy my book for $11.49 (reduced):

    Website: http://www.grandtstories.com/

    Twitter: https://twitter.com/LeviGrandt

    Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/grandtstori...homepage_panel

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  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by ClydeCoulter View Post
    Good argument, you've convinced me. /sarc
    Convince yourself. I'm not here to hold your hand.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Paladin69 View Post
    Convince yourself. I'm not here to hold your hand.
    Use did name call, though

    I consider Bitcoin a way to exchange. A way to buy and sell. You know, let's say you want to pay your rent or buy a house or eat a meal or buy drugs or something from Amazon.com. Bitcoin is a way to do that with minimal fees, especially if you are buying it from a country other than where you were born. IMO, it might be acting as an investment, but I don't see it primary as an investment. Putting 1% of your savings in electronic currencies might not be a bad idea, though
    Lifetime member of more than 1 national gun organization and the New Hampshire Liberty Alliance. Part of Young Americans for Liberty and Campaign for Liberty. Free State Project participant and multi-year Free Talk Live AMPlifier.

  21. #18
    Every person on earth is looking for more money. The central banks and sovereign govt are starving the people of their ability to make a living. These crypto currencies essentially bypass the controllers. It's very very good and I don't think they're going away anytime soon. Just refined and improved over time. Decentralization of power is they key to freedom.
    Last edited by ctiger2; 12-01-2013 at 09:34 PM.

  22. #19
    For something to arbitrarily store value, producers must support it. You and I, we are consumers. Assuming no producers, such as the Middle Eastern Oil States, pick up bitcoin, the only way old users will "get paid" is to sell to new users. This will happen until the new users run out. In this way, it is a ponzi scheme. Gold has been selected to store value. That doesn't mean some else can't store value, but the selection has been made and its gold. Thousands of years of history support this, including central bank balance sheets.
    What I say is for entertainment purposes only!

    Mark 10:45 The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.

    "If you want to make a lot of money, resist diversification." - Jim Rogers

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by ctiger2 View Post
    Every person on earth is looking for more money. The central banks and sovereign govt are starving the people of their ability to make a living. These crypto currencies essentially bypass the controllers. It's very very good and I don't think they're going away anytime soon. Just refined and improved over time.
    Absolutely. There will be bumps along the way. Like when the Bitcoins Roger Ver gave me were stolen because the website I was using was closed. But I don't blame Bitcoins for that. It was a combination of my fault for not doing due diligence, and also of course, the website owner.
    Lifetime member of more than 1 national gun organization and the New Hampshire Liberty Alliance. Part of Young Americans for Liberty and Campaign for Liberty. Free State Project participant and multi-year Free Talk Live AMPlifier.

  24. #21
    I don't understand what some libertarians have against the a very promising and viable alternative to government fiat. If and when the dollar collapses BTC will become instrumental in keeping some semblance of an economy going.

    You can already buy plane tickets with bitcoin at cheapair.com. You can buy gold and silver with bitcoin at coinabul.com. You can buy gift cards with bitcoin to 15 major retailers at gyft.com There's an ebay for bitcoin. Overstock.com is considering accepting bitcoin. It is a free-market emerging currency and that should be very exciting for anyone wanting to see the kinds of changes to the status-quo that Ron Paul advocates.
    Last edited by GregSarnowski; 12-01-2013 at 09:56 PM.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by GregSarnowski View Post
    I don't understand what some libertarians have against the a very promising and viable alternative to government fiat. If and when the dollar collapses BTC will become instrumental in keeping some semblance of an economy going.

    You can already buy plane tickets with bitcoin at cheapair.com. You can buy gold and silver with bitcoin at coinabul.com. You can buy gift cards with bitcoin to 15 major retailers at gyft.com There's an ebay for bitcoin. Overstock.com is considering accepting bitcoin. It is a free-market emerging currency and that should be very exciting for anyone wanting to see the kinds of changes to the status-quo that Ron Paul advocates.
    If the market wants it, that is fine.

    I'm partial to silver and gold. The weight, smell, and shine appeal to me. Hell, a thirty pound ball of copper wire is beautiful. I wish those invested in BTC the best of luck, though.
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
    Who else in public life has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea?--Donald Trump

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by GregSarnowski View Post
    You can buy gift cards with bitcoin to 15 major retailers at gyft.com.
    Oil Changes/Car Maintenance - Sears

    Healthy Organic Food - Whole Foods (aka Whole Bitcoin ;P )

    Home Supplies/Furniture/Clothing - Kmart and Target

    Medications and Personal Care - CVS

    Hotel - Marriot

    Office Supplies/Furniture - Staples


    Then you got Amazon and a few more, that's great.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Oil Changes/Car Maintenance - Sears

    Healthy Organic Food - Whole Foods (aka Whole Bitcoin ;P )

    Home Supplies/Furniture/Clothing - Kmart and Target

    Medications and Personal Care - CVS

    Hotel - Marriot

    Office Supplies/Furniture - Staples


    Then you got Amazon and a few more, that's great.
    There's actually 159 total, if you do a search for all categories.



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  29. #25
    Social Security isn't the biggest Ponzi scheme in history - fractional reserve banking is.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by GregSarnowski View Post
    I don't understand what some libertarians have against the a very promising and viable alternative to government fiat. If and when the dollar collapses BTC will become instrumental in keeping some semblance of an economy going.

    You can already buy plane tickets with bitcoin at cheapair.com. You can buy gold and silver with bitcoin at coinabul.com. You can buy gift cards with bitcoin to 15 major retailers at gyft.com There's an ebay for bitcoin. Overstock.com is considering accepting bitcoin. It is a free-market emerging currency and that should be very exciting for anyone wanting to see the kinds of changes to the status-quo that Ron Paul advocates.
    Do you really think a stable business can run on bitcoin as a form of payment? The value of it drops and rises some days up to 50% and the spread in regularly 5% or more.

    Most libertarians I have seen point out how it is not sustainable or the fact that it will be easily monitored by the government(like all data transmissions on the internet). They don't have anything against it, if it were to be viable. Most, like myself, just don't see that and don't want people get burned. We already have gold and there only need to be one focal point for monetary value. No need for bitcoins, litecoins or even silver, thus they will all fall away. Buying BTC is a gamble on the greater fool theory. Just hope you aren't the last guy in.

    See you at the bottom.
    What I say is for entertainment purposes only!

    Mark 10:45 The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.

    "If you want to make a lot of money, resist diversification." - Jim Rogers

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by cubical View Post
    Do you really think a stable business can run on bitcoin as a form of payment? The value of it drops and rises some days up to 50% and the spread in regularly 5% or more.
    If a business cannot run on Bitcoins as a form of payment, it isn't a stable business at all
    Lifetime member of more than 1 national gun organization and the New Hampshire Liberty Alliance. Part of Young Americans for Liberty and Campaign for Liberty. Free State Project participant and multi-year Free Talk Live AMPlifier.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by cubical View Post
    Do you really think a stable business can run on bitcoin as a form of payment? The value of it drops and rises some days up to 50% and the spread in regularly 5% or more.

    Most libertarians I have seen point out how it is not sustainable or the fact that it will be easily monitored by the government(like all data transmissions on the internet). They don't have anything against it, if it were to be viable. Most, like myself, just don't see that and don't want people get burned. We already have gold and there only need to be one focal point for monetary value. No need for bitcoins, litecoins or even silver, thus they will all fall away. Buying BTC is a gamble on the greater fool theory. Just hope you aren't the last guy in.

    See you at the bottom.
    Too bad gold obviously presents no threat to the current monetary status-quo. In fact the big banks and governments own most of it.

    Saying Bitcoins can be tracked is meaningless. Bitcoin is very anonymous relative to current payment methods.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by GregSarnowski View Post
    Too bad gold obviously presents no threat to the current monetary status-quo. In fact the big banks and governments own most of it.

    Saying Bitcoins can be tracked is meaningless. Bitcoin is very anonymous relative to current payment methods.
    You and your bitcoin buyers will not threaten the monetary status quo. Just like the silver buyers would never crash JP Morgan. We are all shrimp in a very large ocean. From our perspective maybe we can change things. The whales just laugh.
    What I say is for entertainment purposes only!

    Mark 10:45 The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.

    "If you want to make a lot of money, resist diversification." - Jim Rogers

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith and stuff View Post
    If a business cannot run on Bitcoins as a form of payment, it isn't a stable business at all
    ok...
    What I say is for entertainment purposes only!

    Mark 10:45 The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.

    "If you want to make a lot of money, resist diversification." - Jim Rogers

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