Revelation 17

[pcosmar]

Read the whole thing. Read it in several various translations. Contemplate and pray,, and read it again.

It draws a picture from a vision,, and then explains the meaning of that vision

The last verse.

And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
from KJV

The "church" (all believers everywhere for all time) is described as the "Bride Of Christ"

The harlot is not. But as the name implies,, seduces the people (believers).

discus if you like,, but I would rather you contemplate it as a fact.

[heavenlyboy34]

The Church (capitalized) is that body established by the Apostles at the commandment of Christ-the Orthodox (aka "The Ancient Church") and Catholic Churches. The 10,000+ protestant denominations are of course not excluded from Salvation, but they are not "Churches" in the traditional, first century sense. They are more accurately called "worship communities" or something similar. (see the book of Acts and St Paul's Epistles)

[erowe1]

The 10,000+ protestant denominations are of course not excluded from Salvation, but they are not "Churches" in the traditional, first century sense.

Yes they are. Not only are they churches, but they are part of the one, universal, orthodox and catholic Church that Jesus founded through the apostles.

And the word "protestant" is unnecessary in your sentence. The Orthodox and Catholic denominations are just a few more among those tens of thousands.

[TER]

Yes they are. Not only are they churches, but they are part of the one, universal, orthodox and catholic Church that Jesus founded through the apostles.

And the word "protestant" is unnecessary in your sentence. The Orthodox and Catholic denominations are just a few more among those tens of thousands.

Actually, these Protestant churches are not in Eucharistic communion with the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church of the early centuries.

And the difference between the Orthodox and Catholic denominations is that they can trace their history, tradition, and EUCHARISTIC UNITY all the way back to the Apostles. Something you seem to ignore or belittle. But even though you do, this unity around the Eucharist was never ignored or belittled by the faithful in Christ.

[heavenlyboy34]

Yes they are. Not only are they churches, but they are part of the one, universal, orthodox and catholic Church that Jesus founded through the apostles.

And the word "protestant" is unnecessary in your sentence. The Orthodox and Catholic denominations are just a few more among those tens of thousands.

Orthodox and Catholilc are not really "denominations" (even though they are called such in modern usage). These Churches are pre-denominational. The thousands of protestant denominations are generally a result of their differing opinions with the historic Church and amongst each other.

"Catholic" means "universal", which is why you don't find thousands of flavors of it. Orthodoxy is also Universal, but not Catholic. Eduardo did a decent job explaning the differences (and lack thereof) of the Eastern and Western Churches.

[Ronin Truth]

Why does Christianity look so much more like the Roman Empire than like the church Jesus talked about? Golden Rule, love your enemies, love your neighbors, peace makers, etc., etc., etc.

[erowe1]

Orthodox and Catholilc are not really "denominations" (even though they are called such in modern usage). These Churches are pre-denominational.

That's not true. Denominations (groups of churches that align with one another as smaller subsets of the larger worldwide Church) have been around since the beginning. Widespread organizations of bishops and patriarchates claiming to be the hierarchical structure governing the entire worldwide Church didn't come around until much later. Anyone who tells you otherwise either is not familiar with the history of the topic, or they're lying.

And actually, they RC and EO churches don't call themselves denominations. They pretend that they are "The Church" itself. They're wrong about that. They're just denominations, like all the others, and nothing more.

I agree with what you said about orthodox and catholic. All true believers in Jesus belong to the one true orthodox and catholic Church, not just those who wrongly claim to have a monopoly on it.

[pcosmar]

Why does Christianity look so much more like the Roman Empire than like the church Jesus talked about? Golden Rule, love your enemies, love your neighbors, peace makers, etc., etc., etc.

Perhaps because most of what passes for Christianity is not.

And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Now what great city that sits on7 hills and is involved in the politics of the earth.. Ordaining Kings and such?

[TER]

That's not true. Denominations (groups of churches that align with one another as smaller subsets of the larger worldwide Church) have been around since the beginning. Widespread organizations of bishops and patriarchates claiming to be the hierarchical structure governing the entire worldwide Church didn't come around until much later. Anyone who tells you otherwise either is not familiar with the history of the topic, or they're lying.

And actually, they RC and EO churches don't call themselves denominations. They pretend that they are "The Church" itself. They're wrong about that. They're just denominations, like all the others, and nothing more.

I agree with what you said about orthodox and catholic. All true believers in Jesus belong to the one true orthodox and catholic Church, not just those who wrongly claim to have a monopoly on it.

Do you believe it is impossible that there is one church that was established around Eucharistic unity that has lasted through the ages up until modern time? Do you think this would be impossible for God to establish One Church around one faith in one body sharing in the one cup?

[Dr.3D]

Perhaps because most of what passes for Christianity is not.


Now what great city that sits on7 hills and is involved in the politics of the earth.. Ordaining Kings and such?

Rome!

[heavenlyboy34]

Why does Christianity look so much more like the Roman Empire than like the church Jesus talked about? Golden Rule, love your enemies, love your neighbors, peace makers, etc., etc., etc.

What do you mean by "Christianity"? Millions of people call themselves "Christian", but belong to churches (small c)/congregations that are more interested in espousing their own opinions than really preaching the Gospel. In my parish, there is a gospel and epistle reading each week, and the sermon is about that and usually modern applications. It's pretty much what you would have found in the first century-none of the stuff you're describing in modern christianity.

[pcosmar]

Do you believe it is impossible that there is one church that was established around Eucharistic unity that has lasted through the ages up until modern time? Do you think this would be impossible for God to establish One Church around one faith in one body sharing in the one cup?

I believe there is one church,, centered around Christ himself..

And all rituals are irrelevant to that.

[erowe1]

What do you mean by "Christianity"? Millions of people call themselves "Christian", but belong to churches (small c)/congregations that are more interested in espousing their own opinions than really preaching the Gospel. In my parish, there is a gospel and epistle reading each week, and the sermon is about that and usually modern applications. It's pretty much what you would have found in the first century-none of the stuff you're describing in modern christianity.

A reading from a Gospel and an Epistle along with a sermon that is based on those readings does not constitute preaching the Gospel. I encounter people all the time with lengthy backgrounds in churches that have those things, and who don't know what the Gospel is.

I'm encouraged that you look to the first century for your standard. That's the right place to look.

[pcosmar]

Rome!

A conclusion that even Roman Catholic theologians (and recognized prophets) have come to,, though they downplay,, or even obscure it.
They certainly do not advertise it.

[TER]

I believe there is one church,, centered around Christ himself..

And all rituals are irrelevant to that.

I also believe there is one Church centered around Christ. I also don't doubt the Holy Spirit being active in the world and in the mysteries and sacraments initiated by Christ and passed down by His apostles.

[heavenlyboy34]

That's not true. Denominations (groups of churches that align with one another as smaller subsets of the larger worldwide Church) have been around since the beginning. Widespread organizations of bishops and patriarchates claiming to be the hierarchical structure governing the entire worldwide Church didn't come around until much later. Anyone who tells you otherwise either is not familiar with the history of the topic, or they're lying.

And actually, they RC and EO churches don't call themselves denominations. They pretend that they are "The Church" itself. They're wrong about that. They're just denominations, like all the others, and nothing more.

No. Denominations came to be quite a while after the Apostolic church was established. (IDR the exact date now)

I agree with what you said about orthodox and catholic. All true believers in Jesus belong to the one true orthodox and catholic Church, not just those who wrongly claim to have a monopoly on it.

More accurately, all true believers are invited to join the universal church as they wish-but not all do. Our Eucharist is only "closed" with respect to non-orthodox. Anyone can convert to orthodoxy and partake with the other parishoners.

There is nothing wrong with being a member of a denomination, but you are not part of a Church (big C). This "monopoly", as you put it, was not made up by us-we get it through the Apostles, ultimately from Christ himself.

[heavenlyboy34]

A reading from a Gospel and an Epistle along with a sermon that is based on those readings does not constitute preaching the Gospel. I encounter people all the time with lengthy backgrounds in churches that have those things, and who don't know what the Gospel is.

I'm encouraged that you look to the first century for your standard. That's the right place to look.

I didn't claim this.

[Ronin Truth]

What do you mean by "Christianity"? Millions of people call themselves "Christian", but belong to churches (small c)/congregations that are more interested in espousing their own opinions than really preaching the Gospel. In my parish, there is a gospel and epistle reading each week, and the sermon is about that and usually modern applications. It's pretty much what you would have found in the first century-none of the stuff you're describing in modern christianity.

Golden Rule, love your enemies, love your neighbors, peace makers, Sermon on the Mount, Sermon on the Plain, the speck in your brother's eye, etc., etc., etc.

Also, if Jesus is an anarchist, why all the statist Christians?

[heavenlyboy34]

Golden Rule, love your enemies, love your neighbors, peace makers, Sermon on the Mount, Sermon on the Plain, the speck in your brother's eye, etc., etc., etc.

Also, if Jesus is an anarchist, why all the statist Christians?

This is a result of a number of heresies and departures from historical doctrine. I just today got a copy of "Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy"-I will scan some of it for y'all when I get a chance, as it discusses issues like this.

[erowe1]

No. Denominations came to be quite a while after the Apostolic church was established. (IDR the exact date now)

They already existed by the time the earliest books of the New Testament were written (E.g. Corinthians 1:12). Why do you think otherwise?

More accurately, all true believers are invited to join the universal church as they wish-but not all do.

That's not true. The way I put it was more accurate (Romans 12:5; 1 Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 2:19-22; 4:4-6).

Where are you getting the ideas that you're expressing here?

This "monopoly", as you put it, was not made up by us-we get it through the Apostles, ultimately from Christ himself.

That's false. And it is easy to prove that it is.

[erowe1]

This is a result of a number of heresies and departures from historical doctrine. I just today got a copy of "Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy"-I will scan some of it for y'all when I get a chance, as it discusses issues like this.

I take it that you aren't yet aware that the entire thesis of that book is the exact opposite of the views you are espousing in this thread.

[Ronin Truth]

This is a result of a number of heresies and departures from historical doctrine. I just today got a copy of "Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy"-I will scan some of it for y'all when I get a chance, as it discusses issues like this.

Thanks! I look forward to that. FWIW, my answer is Roman Empire.

[Miss Annie]

This is the most scripturally accurate interpretation I have heard. I feel the bashing coming...... But the scriptures say it, I don't .

[TER]

Do you believe it is impossible that there is one church that was established around Eucharistic unity that has lasted through the ages up until modern time? Do you think this would be impossible for God to establish One Church around one faith in one body sharing in the one cup?

Erowe, when you have a moment, I wonder if you would answer the above.

[Original_Intent]

I believe there is one church,, centered around Christ himself..

And all rituals are irrelevant to that.

Amen.

The point of religions is to assist followers in connecting with the heavens - to the extent that they get in the way or insist upon being intermediaries, they are not doing their jobs (imho).

[pcosmar]

This is the most scripturally accurate interpretation I have heard. I feel the bashing coming...... But the scriptures say it, I don't .

Shoebat is a Zionist propagandist for hire..
I would be careful of his message as well.

[erowe1]

I didn't claim this.

You said the following:

Millions of people call themselves "Christian", but belong to churches (small c)/congregations that are more interested in espousing their own opinions than really preaching the Gospel. In my parish, there is a gospel and epistle reading each week, and the sermon is about that and usually modern applications

If you didn't mean that the practice of having readings from the Gospels and Epistles with a sermon on those readings distinguished your small-c congregation (which is all your church really is) from other small-c congregations that don't preach the Gospel, then what was your point?

[Miss Annie]

Shoebat is a Zionist propagandist for hire..
I would be careful of his message as well.

Listen to the scriptures, not the man. The message, not the messenger.

[eduardo89]

All true believers in Jesus belong to the one true orthodox and catholic Church, not just those who wrongly claim to have a monopoly on it.

I partly agree with this. Since there is only one baptism and One Church, we are all baptised into the same Church. That doesn't mean we all have a perfect communion with the Church, those who do not share the Sacramental Communion with the Catholic Church, despite being Christians, have an imperfect communion with Christ's Church.

[heavenlyboy34]

Read the whole thing. Read it in several various translations. Contemplate and pray,, and read it again.

It draws a picture from a vision,, and then explains the meaning of that vision

The last verse.


The "church" (all believers everywhere for all time) is described as the "Bride Of Christ"

The harlot is not. But as the name implies,, seduces the people (believers).

The Great Harlot is Rome, the empire with its claims of divinity, sovereignty, and eternity(see vv.9, 18), opposed to God and The Church: symbolic of all evil rule. In the Bible, harlotry frequently symbolizes apostasy and idolatry (see Is 1:21, 23:15, Jer 13:25-27; Ezk 16; Hos 4:12; Nah 3:4). The many waters on which the harlot is seated portray both the waters of Babylon-the canals and tributaries of the Euphrates (Ps. 136:1; Jer 28:12, 13)-and the waters of Rome, the seas surrounding Italy. They symbolize the nations who submit to the harlot's rule

~from the commentary on pg 1738 of The Orthodox Study Bible.