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Thread: Deputies shoot, kill 13-year-old carrying toy gun

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by IndianaPolitico View Post
    I never said that. But I have read dozens of these threads on here, and every time people glaze over details and go right for the "kill the cops" line. You weren't there, I wasn't there, no one posting here witnessed what happened. They could have been justified, they could have been totally out of line. But my point is that I am getting tired of us tearing people down on our "internetz" without facts.
    If you've read dozens and dozens of "cop shoots mundane" or "cop shoots dog" stories here, how can you claim you don't have facts?

    The dozens and dozens of stories speak for themselves.

    War on Us.



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  3. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by IndianaPolitico View Post
    They could have been justified, they could have been totally out of line.
    Whether they were out of line or not, the internal investigation will ALWAYS clear them. The police ALWAYS stand with their brothers no matter how vile. (unless a miracle happens). With that in mind, we need to stand with the victims of these killings because, who else will demand justice, the government?

  4. #63
    I feel so sad for the family that lost there child; don't know what to say except, "sorry to hear about your loss". I bet the shooters are not having their best day either... very sad.

  5. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by FindLiberty View Post
    I feel so sad for the family that lost there child; don't know what to say except, "sorry to hear about your loss". I bet the shooters are not having their best day either... very sad.
    Are you kidding? They'd be called "Heroes"!

    Real Heroes dont demand Paychecks. Their actions are Selfless and protect the lives of the innocents.
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  7. #65
    It's really sad that so many are making excuses for, or empathizing with, cops who killed a child in cold blood.

    Just proves to me that a society such as this is doomed.

    The panty-wastes out in Ca. will put out flowers and seek therapy but those murders will not be held accountable.

  8. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    It's really sad that so many are making excuses for, or empathizing with, cops who killed a child in cold blood.

    Just proves to me that a society such as this is doomed.

    The panty-wastes out in Ca. will put out flowers and seek therapy but those murders will not be held accountable.
    They will skate and foolish people will feel safe


    If a cop kills one of my kids it will one of the last things they do
    Last edited by puppetmaster; 10-24-2013 at 05:05 AM.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it."
    James Madison

    "It does not take a majority to prevail ... but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men." - Samuel Adams



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  9. #67
    OP article should be added to "Police Abuse" thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by BuddyRey View Post
    Do you think it's a coincidence that the most cherished standard of the Ron Paul campaign was a sign highlighting the word "love" inside the word "revolution"? A revolution not based on love is a revolution doomed to failure. So, at the risk of sounding corny, I just wanted to let you know that, wherever you stand on any of these hot-button issues, and even if we might have exchanged bitter words or harsh sentiments in the past, I love each and every one of you - no exceptions!

    "When goods do not cross borders, soldiers will." Frederic Bastiat

    Peace.

  10. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Athan View Post
    Sue the cops PERSONALLY. Once you win, sue the county and state.
    I wonder, how often are cops sued personally? Most people can't afford to sue. Lawyers like cases that earn them big profits. Lawyers may push their clients to sue municipalities instead where profit margin is greater. End result, cop doesn't get sued, tax payer does. If only there was a civil rights advocacy group that could sue on the peoples behalf, oh, that's right, the aclu. LOL. The aclu would go after the tax payer too.
    Quote Originally Posted by BuddyRey View Post
    Do you think it's a coincidence that the most cherished standard of the Ron Paul campaign was a sign highlighting the word "love" inside the word "revolution"? A revolution not based on love is a revolution doomed to failure. So, at the risk of sounding corny, I just wanted to let you know that, wherever you stand on any of these hot-button issues, and even if we might have exchanged bitter words or harsh sentiments in the past, I love each and every one of you - no exceptions!

    "When goods do not cross borders, soldiers will." Frederic Bastiat

    Peace.

  11. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Henry Rogue View Post
    I wonder, how often are cops sued personally?
    Guessing,, very seldom.
    Aside from the immunity from prosecution, they have powerful unions that pressure Government and courts.

    It would be a tough fight,, if you could find a Lawyer that would go against the system that feeds him.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  12. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Guessing,, very seldom.
    Aside from the immunity from prosecution, they have powerful unions that pressure Government and courts.

    It would be a tough fight,, if you could find a Lawyer that would go against the system that feeds him.
    I thought that as well. I posted something to that effect once and someone replied that cops do not have immunity from lawsuits. I suppose some states could be different.
    Quote Originally Posted by BuddyRey View Post
    Do you think it's a coincidence that the most cherished standard of the Ron Paul campaign was a sign highlighting the word "love" inside the word "revolution"? A revolution not based on love is a revolution doomed to failure. So, at the risk of sounding corny, I just wanted to let you know that, wherever you stand on any of these hot-button issues, and even if we might have exchanged bitter words or harsh sentiments in the past, I love each and every one of you - no exceptions!

    "When goods do not cross borders, soldiers will." Frederic Bastiat

    Peace.

  13. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Henry Rogue View Post
    I thought that as well. I posted something to that effect once and someone replied that cops do not have immunity from lawsuits. I suppose some states could be different.
    Whether the immunity is explicit or implicit it's all part of the "Just-Us" system that needs to end.

  14. #72
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    I can't help but notice a theme that the story is the police thought the gun was real. Uh... even if it were a real gun, carrying a gun is NOT a justification for killing a person. It is not like there were reports of him shooting people or anything. The cops just rolled up on a person and shot him because he was holding a gun. So now bearing arms is to be considered justifiable homicide?
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  16. #73
    SMFH. I really have nothing to say at this point that wouldn't cross forum guidelines.

  17. #74
    Will Grigg:

    A “Fearful” Police Mindset Leads to a Dead Child

    “The deputy’s mindset was that he was fearful that he was going to be shot,” said Lt. Paul Henry of the Santa Rosa Police Department by way of explaining how 13-year-old Andy Lopez, who was “armed” with a BB gun, was gunned on October 22.

    Lopez was on his way to visit a classmate named Luis Diaz when he was spotted by Sonoma County Sheriff’s Deputies on routine patrol. He was carrying an airsoft “rifle” — a plastic toy that fires plastic BBs — that superficially resembles an AK-47 rifle, but can easily be identified as a toy by casual observers. Diaz told the Santa Rosa Press-Democrat that the last time he saw Lopez use the gun “it fell and the whole front of it broke in half so you could see the wires coming out…. You could tell it’s fake, easily.”

    During a press conference held in the wake of the fatal shooting, police displayed the airsoft toy next to an actual AK-47, apparently for the purpose of demonstrating how similar the replica is to the real article. However, “in the light of the Finley Center the model Lopez carried was clearly plastic with a transparent center section. The BB gun also had a shorter barrel.” The fatal encounter between Lopez and the deputies took place at 3:15 in the afternoon, which means that such critical details were not obscured by twilight, and should have been recognized by people who are supposedly trained observers.

    After spotting Lopez walking on the sidewalk, the deputies called for backup and pulled up behind him. They drew their guns, took cover behind the vehicle’s open doors, and ordered Lopez to “drop the gun.” The youngster, who was about 20 to 30 feet away from the officers, turned around to face the deputies — and was immediately shot. The entire encounter — from the time the deputies called for backup, to the fatal shooting — to just a few seconds.

    According to Lt. Henry, the deputy who opened fire was a “law enforcement veteran” who “has quite a bit of experience with this kind of weapon,” meaning, presumably, an actual AK-47, rather than an obvious toy replica. “He’s aware of the damage these kinds of weapons can do” and that they can fire rounds able to “penetrate body armor, can penetrate the metal of his vehicle, and also the sides of houses and buildings in the area.”

    Although that statement was offered by way of extenuation, it underscores the preoccupation with “officer safety” that leads to unnecessary police shootings. A peace officer is paid to assume certain risks, including those necessary to de-escalate a confrontation with someone believed to be a heavily armed suspect in a residential neighborhood. A “veteran” deputy with the mindset of a peace officer would have taken more than a shaved fraction of a split-second to open fire on a small male individual readily identifiable as a junior high school student, who was carrying an object that is easily recognizable as a toy — at least to people who don’t see themselves as an army of occupation, and view the public as an undifferentiated mass of menace.

  18. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Whether the immunity is explicit or implicit it's all part of the "Just-Us" system that needs to end.
    True.
    Quote Originally Posted by BuddyRey View Post
    Do you think it's a coincidence that the most cherished standard of the Ron Paul campaign was a sign highlighting the word "love" inside the word "revolution"? A revolution not based on love is a revolution doomed to failure. So, at the risk of sounding corny, I just wanted to let you know that, wherever you stand on any of these hot-button issues, and even if we might have exchanged bitter words or harsh sentiments in the past, I love each and every one of you - no exceptions!

    "When goods do not cross borders, soldiers will." Frederic Bastiat

    Peace.

  19. #76
    According to Lt. Henry, the deputy who opened fire was a “law enforcement veteran” who “has quite a bit of experience with this kind of weapon,” meaning, presumably, an actual AK-47, rather than an obvious toy replica. “He’s aware of the damage these kinds of weapons can do” and that they can fire rounds able to “penetrate body armor, can penetrate the metal of his vehicle, and also the sides of houses and buildings in the area.”
    So, is Lt. Henry a good cop or a bad cop?.... I don't care, because he is part of a system that perpetuates such abuse. A system that needs to be abolished. This in response to that other thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by BuddyRey View Post
    Do you think it's a coincidence that the most cherished standard of the Ron Paul campaign was a sign highlighting the word "love" inside the word "revolution"? A revolution not based on love is a revolution doomed to failure. So, at the risk of sounding corny, I just wanted to let you know that, wherever you stand on any of these hot-button issues, and even if we might have exchanged bitter words or harsh sentiments in the past, I love each and every one of you - no exceptions!

    "When goods do not cross borders, soldiers will." Frederic Bastiat

    Peace.

  20. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by IndianaPolitico View Post
    I never said that. But I have read dozens of these threads on here, and every time people glaze over details and go right for the "kill the cops" line. You weren't there, I wasn't there, no one posting here witnessed what happened. They could have been justified, they could have been totally out of line. But my point is that I am getting tired of us tearing people down on our "internetz" without facts.
    Let me put it to you in a way you understand.

    First the good cops in the law enforcement industry don't get attacked by anyone in these forms. The scumbag that did this is not a good cop, he like other cops are paid well, and in NO WAY SUPPOSED TO BE GIVEN THE AUTHORITY THEY ARE GIVEN to act impulsively like an idiot soccer mom and tears morgan in a possible gun scenario. Especially when firing a weapon at what could be a $#@!ing kid (i'm angry at the cops here not you btw) before even GIVING HIM A CHANCE to drop his "weapon".

    Understand? They receive THOUSANDS of dollars, TRAIN, not to act like rabid dog with a gun. So what does he do? He acts like Rosie o'$#@!ing Donald, when he hears of a person with a weapon, and starts popping rounds like the very lunatic he is paid to defend the society from. Remember that you are getting upset, that citizens here on "our internetz" are ridiculing A LUNATIC WITH A GUN. Your reason?! Simply because he has a badge! As a gun owner, I am appalled.

    Cops even deal with the court of law and should have more than the average awareness for the laws of our land. Now, do you understand?

    The way this idiot acted had NOTHING to do with fearing for his life. What he did was ROUTINE procedure and is only shocking because the truth of the incident finally dawned on the cops because the media got a hold of it. This is a clear indication of corrupt cultural and unconstitutional behavior in their department. That you call for back up if you receive a call of a possible weapon, SHOOT first, then ask your questions later, because the courts and department will get you off later eventually.

    If police department really had a better standard they wouldn't even BOTHER trying to make excuses for what happened. It would be no comment, unpaid leave for dumbass, and try to work with the community to help them cope.

    They as a organization have NO concern to INVESTIGATE, deescalate a situation, stay calm in the line of duty, no professionalism with caution, and certainly no regard for the life that may be taken. Remember this next time you see a cop attack story. The good cops don't GET criticized by us. In a nation with millions in the police force, posters are showing you what the bottom scum of the barrel have done. Good cops don't NEED to worry about you defending them or their organizations. Hell criticism will help them clear their trade of the scum if anything.
    Last edited by Athan; 10-24-2013 at 01:10 PM.
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  21. #78
    Murderer!





    I hope dad gets justice.
    "IF GOD DIDN'T WANT TO HELP AMERICA, THEN WE WOULD HAVE Hillary Clinton"!!
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    All my life I've been at the mercy of men just following orders... Never again!~Erik Lehnsherr
    There's nothing wrong with stopping people randomly, especially near bars, restaurants etc.~Velho

  22. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Yup.

    You might not even be given the chance to comply.

    I'll bet less than 2 seconds elapsed before they wasted this kid.
    After spotting Lopez walking on the sidewalk, the deputies called for backup and pulled up behind him. They drew their guns, took cover behind the vehicle’s open doors, and ordered Lopez to “drop the gun.” The youngster, who was about 20 to 30 feet away from the officers, turned around to face the deputies — and was immediately shot. The entire encounter — from the time the deputies called for backup, to the fatal shooting — to just a few seconds.
    What do I win?

  23. #80
    A “veteran” deputy with the mindset of a peace officer would have taken more than a shaved fraction of a split-second to open fire on a small male individual readily identifiable as a junior high school student, who was carrying an object that is easily recognizable as a toy — at least to people who don’t see themselves as an army of occupation, and view the public as an undifferentiated mass of menace.



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  25. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    The moment both of these cops realized their mistake, they should have collapsed, wept, torn off their badges, and screamed uncontrollably, "What have we done?!"

    If they didn't, then they're sociopaths. If the agency they work for is fine with that, then they're either deliberately hiring sociopaths, or actively training those who work for them to become sociopaths.
    100%

    I'm all for this sentiment being included in the sympathy cards that someone else suggested, along with personally suing the cops...and I'm talking about the entire town bringing a lawsuit against the cops and perhaps the chief or whomever trained them.

  26. #82
    Harry: Ken, if I had killed a little kid, accidentally or otherwise, I wouldn't have thought twice. I'd killed myself on the $#@!ing spot. On the $#@!ing spot. I would've stuck the gun in me mouth. On the $#@!ing spot!

    "IF GOD DIDN'T WANT TO HELP AMERICA, THEN WE WOULD HAVE Hillary Clinton"!!
    "let them search you,touch you,violate your Rights,just don't be a dick!"~ cdc482
    "For Wales. Why Richard, it profits a man nothing to give his soul for the whole world. But for Wales?"
    All my life I've been at the mercy of men just following orders... Never again!~Erik Lehnsherr
    There's nothing wrong with stopping people randomly, especially near bars, restaurants etc.~Velho

  27. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by amy31416 View Post
    100%

    I'm all for this sentiment being included in the sympathy cards that someone else suggested, along with personally tying the cops...and I'm talking about the entire town getting a rope for the cops and perhaps the chief or whomever trained them.

    I changed a few words.
    "IF GOD DIDN'T WANT TO HELP AMERICA, THEN WE WOULD HAVE Hillary Clinton"!!
    "let them search you,touch you,violate your Rights,just don't be a dick!"~ cdc482
    "For Wales. Why Richard, it profits a man nothing to give his soul for the whole world. But for Wales?"
    All my life I've been at the mercy of men just following orders... Never again!~Erik Lehnsherr
    There's nothing wrong with stopping people randomly, especially near bars, restaurants etc.~Velho

  28. #84

  29. #85
    Officer who Shot Toy Rifle-Holding Teen Had Pulled Gun During Traffic Stop a Few Months Ago
    http://reason.com/blog/2013/11/04/of...e-holding-teen

    Sometimes reckless officer behavior that doesn't kill someone can be a sign, as reported in the UK Daily Mail:

    A driver has come forward saying the deputy who shot dead a 13-year-old California boy after mistaking his fake AK-47 as real pulled a gun on him also, after he failed to signal a lane change during a carpool.

    Jeff Westbrook, 57, of Santa Rosa said he was mistreated by Deputy Erick Gelhaus after being pulled over Aug. 21 in Cotati, so much so that at one point he asked Gelhaus: 'Sir, is there something wrong with you?'

    'I felt like I was watching somebody I needed to help,' Mr Westbrook, a program manager at an information technology company, told CBS of Gelhaus.

    'This was not right. He did not manage this correctly.'

    Gelhaus shot Andy Lopez seven times at a Santa Rosa parking after recieving reports of a suspicious and believing his toy machine gun was real.

    Mr Westbrook was pulled over by Gelhaus for not using his indicator.

    He said he pulled into a shoulder, but offered to move the car forward because there was not much room next to the driver door for Gelhaus.

    When the car started moving, Gelhaus is alleged to have drawn his gun.

    'It was about a foot from by face,' Westbrook said.

    'I've never had a gun pointed at me before.'
    Based on the idea of natural rights, government secures those rights to the individual by strictly negative intervention, making justice costless and easy of access; and beyond that it does not go. The State, on the other hand, both in its genesis and by its primary intention, is purely anti-social. It is not based on the idea of natural rights, but on the idea that the individual has no rights except those that the State may provisionally grant him. It has always made justice costly and difficult of access, and has invariably held itself above justice and common morality whenever it could advantage itself by so doing.
    --Albert J. Nock

  30. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by green73 View Post
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  31. #87
    I never heard of a Hell's Angel gunning down a kid. And they are considered the outlaws?

  32. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by IndianaPolitico View Post
    ...I am getting tired of us tearing people down on our "internetz" without facts.
    You know what I am getting tired of? I'm getting tired of these cases where the facts are fully known, often displayed in unmistakable raw footage. The facts are right there, but these dirty pieces of filth still get away with it.

    That's what I'm getting tired of.



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  34. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Demigod View Post
    You cry 24/7 about police brutality.
    Dude, are you actually saying that losing your mind to the insane over cops murdering us daily is considered crying?

  35. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Intoxiklown View Post
    Dude, are you actually saying that losing your mind to the insane over cops murdering us daily is considered crying?
    The rest of his post calls for action, and not the "strongly worded letter" type.

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