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Thread: Shutdown Not About Obamacare?

  1. #1

    Shutdown Not About Obamacare?

    A post I had in another thread.

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...utdown_as.html
    Three days into the federal shutdown, Republicans are beginning to admit that, contrary to everything they told us, they didn’t really close the government to stop Obamacare. They did it, and will keep doing it, to gain leverage in the coming fight over the debt ceiling. The government will stay shut for the next two weeks so that the GOP can accumulate power.

    This isn’t Democratic spin. It’s what Republicans themselves are telling reporters, particularly the conservative media. Last night in the Washington Examiner, David Drucker reported:

    House GOP leaders and most of their rank and file never supported conservatives' efforts to use the budget bill and the threat of a government shutdown to defund Obamacare … But having gone as far as they have, House Republicans now say they won't back down. And they expect to score political points in the process.

    The real target, according to Drucker’s sources, is the deadline for raising the debt ceiling, which is two weeks away:


    [House] Republicans said Wednesday that the spending impasse that shut down the government early Tuesday is less about conservatives' desire to derail Obamacare than it is about strengthening their hand in the debt-ceiling talks. … “We’re not going to be disrespected,” conservative Rep. Marlin Stutzman, R-Ind., added. “We have to get something out of this. And I don’t know what that even is.”

    Drucker’s account matches what Republicans are telling other outlets. In the Washington Post, Paul Kane reports that House Speaker John Boehner never wanted to use the shutdown threat to stop Obamacare. Nevertheless, Boehner joined this assault in order to head off a “rebellion” in his caucus. As a result, the speaker has:


    kept sending the Senate bills that would completely defund or delay the health-care law, knowing it would lead to a shutdown. … Now that Boehner has survived several days of the shutdown, his friends say there is no point in moving a clean funding resolution. They said the shutdown is leverage in talks with Obama and the Democrats about lifting the debt ceiling.

    On Wednesday, according to Robert Costa of the National Review, “Boehner called groups of members to his Capitol office all day, taking their temperature on the shutdown and the debt limit. It became clear, members say, that Boehner’s chief goal is conference unity as the debt limit nears.” In the Hill, Molly Hooper found the GOP abandoning its original message:


    Republicans, including those same conservatives, attempted to shift the conversation away from defunding ObamaCare to larger items such as entitlement spending and tax reform. … Stutzman added that those same conservatives essentially stopped talking as much about ObamaCare and have moved on to broader economic matters
    .
    Second, contrary to what he told us, it’s all about Republicans in Congress. By their own paraphrased admissions, it’s “about strengthening their hand in the debt-ceiling talks.” It’s “leverage” in the debt ceiling fight. They knew that the deadline for that fight was Oct. 17. Yet they choked off government funding on Tuesday, under the pretense of stopping Obamacare. Today is Oct. 3. Republicans are prepared to keep the government closed for at least two more weeks, just to gain the upper hand in a future confrontation.



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  3. #2
    Possible. Might kill 2 birds with one stone. Going to be hard to fund a massive new entitlement like Obamacare with no debt limit increase.

  4. #3
    I'm against Obamacare and against raising the debt limit.
    ----

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  5. #4
    If they keep increasing it, it will just go up and up. It's about time they learn to live with what they have.

  6. #5
    Obamacare is set up to be self funding- won't be effected by extending or not extending the debt ceiling.

  7. #6
    I'm not sure they really have a plan. And even if they do, it does not matter because we all know they will cave.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Obamacare is set up to be self funding- won't be effected by extending or not extending the debt ceiling.
    Lol. And the Iraq war will pay for itself.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Obamacare is set up to be self funding- won't be effected by extending or not extending the debt ceiling.
    I have some ocean front property in arizona i'd like to sell you.
    rewritten history with armies of their crooks - invented memories, did burn all the books... Mark Knopfler



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Obamacare is set up to be self funding- won't be effected by extending or not extending the debt ceiling.
    You either are paid to post here or you're an idiot. I'm not sure which it is.

  12. #10
    http://www.usdebtclock.org/

    Shutting down the government over the debt does make more sense than shutting it down over one of the many things that creates the debt.

  13. #11
    The shutdown should be over the debt. The only reason there should be a debt limit increase is if there is a significant cut in the deficit.
    Rand Paul 2016

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by fr33 View Post
    You either are paid to post here or you're an idiot. I'm not sure which it is.
    Nah dude, he went to Vegas
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
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    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by torchbearer View Post
    I have some ocean front property in arizona i'd like to sell you.
    Obamacare is far too long and complicated for me to say this with any confidence, but isn't Zippyjuan technically correct here? There are probably a lot of Medicare-related aspects (etc.) I'm not aware of, but I was under the impression that it's essentially going to be paid for by skyrocketing premiums everyone has to pay if they don't want to pay a fine or have a federal lien on their house. (...and the more people who pay the fine, the more the premiums will skyrocket for everyone else.)
    Last edited by Mini-Me; 10-08-2013 at 08:08 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by President John F. Kennedy
    And we must face the fact that the United States is neither omnipotent nor omniscient. That we are only 6% of the world's population, and that we cannot impose our will upon the other 94% of mankind. That we cannot right every wrong or reverse each adversity, and that therefore there cannot be an American solution to every world problem.
    I need an education in US history, from the ground up. Can you help point me to a comprehensive, unbiased, scholarly resource?

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Mini-Me View Post
    Obamacare is far too long and complicated for me to say this with any confidence, but isn't Zippyjuan technically correct here? There are probably a lot of Medicare-related aspects (etc.) I'm not aware of, but I was under the impression that it's essentially going to be paid for by skyrocketing premiums everyone has to pay if they don't want to pay a fine or have a federal lien on their house. (...and the more people who pay the fine, the more the premiums will skyrocket for everyone else.)
    On paper.....not reality
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it."
    James Madison

    "It does not take a majority to prevail ... but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men." - Samuel Adams



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  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by puppetmaster View Post
    On paper.....not reality
    What are the edge cases that make it untrue? I presume Medicare has a lot to do with it?
    Quote Originally Posted by President John F. Kennedy
    And we must face the fact that the United States is neither omnipotent nor omniscient. That we are only 6% of the world's population, and that we cannot impose our will upon the other 94% of mankind. That we cannot right every wrong or reverse each adversity, and that therefore there cannot be an American solution to every world problem.
    I need an education in US history, from the ground up. Can you help point me to a comprehensive, unbiased, scholarly resource?

  18. #16
    I still don't get it. I mean, Boehner wants to raise the debt ceiling anyway.



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  20. #17
    They are in cahoots.

    There will be much trial and tribulation and in the end they will get what they want.

    This time they may get more than they expected. It seems unavoidable.

  21. #18
    A bit more info: http://mediamatters.org/research/201...196181#anchor4
    Health Care Law Would Continue Even During A Government Shutdown

    Washington Post: Affordable Care Act Implementation Would Continue Even During A Government Shutdown. According to an article in The Washington Post, "Eighty-five percent of the Affordable Care Act's funding comes from mandatory spending that would not be affected by a shutdown." Therefore, as, David Simas, White House deputy senior adviser for communications and strategy, explained, that while there may be some impacts of a shutdown, "it does not go into the core of what we are doing." [The Washington Post, 9/25/13]
    http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/201..._care_law.html

    Obamacare funding: Taxes will help pay for new health care law

    By Ed Beeson/The Star-Ledger
    on September 29, 2013 at 6:15 AM, updated September 30, 2013 at 2:23 PM

    The Affordable Care Act is expected to raise hundreds of billions of dollars in tax revenue over the next 10 years. But most people won’t see this money coming out of their pockets, at least not directly.

    To pay for the health care law, Congress created a number of new taxes or raised existing rates on individuals and industries. For individuals, the new rates target mainly high-income households and those who ignore the requirement that they have health insurance.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 10-08-2013 at 09:38 PM.

  22. #19

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Mini-Me View Post
    Obamacare is far too long and complicated for me to say this with any confidence, but isn't Zippyjuan technically correct here? There are probably a lot of Medicare-related aspects (etc.) I'm not aware of, but I was under the impression that it's essentially going to be paid for by skyrocketing premiums everyone has to pay if they don't want to pay a fine or have a federal lien on their house. (...and the more people who pay the fine, the more the premiums will skyrocket for everyone else.)

    You forgot the increase in demand for medical services that will result from more medicaid holders.
    rewritten history with armies of their crooks - invented memories, did burn all the books... Mark Knopfler

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Obamacare is set up to be self funding- won't be effected by extending or not extending the debt ceiling.
    Wouldn't that depend on how many people sign up vs. choose to pay the tax vs. choose to not pay the tax?
    "Government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem."
    Ronald Reagan, 1981

  25. #22
    D
    FAULT
    FLIP THOSE FLAGS, THE NATION IS IN DISTRESS!


    why I should worship the state (who apparently is the only party that can possess guns without question).
    The state's only purpose is to kill and control. Why do you worship it? - Sola_Fide

    Baptiste said.
    At which point will Americans realize that creating an unaccountable institution that is able to pass its liability on to tax-payers is immoral and attracts sociopaths?

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Obamacare is set up to be self funding- won't be effected by extending or not extending the debt ceiling.
    No way in hell it's self funding.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by enoch150 View Post
    Wouldn't that depend on how many people sign up vs. choose to pay the tax vs. choose to not pay the tax?
    The penalty is not a major source of funding for it. They added a lot of new taxes.
    http://obamacarefacts.com/obamacare-taxes.php

    Full List of All Taxes in ObamaCare / All Taxes in the Affordable Care Act

    The following list of new ObamaCare taxes collectively raise about $770 billion over the next ten years. While most ObamaCare taxes won't affect the Average American there are some that will. Here is a complete list of new fees and taxes contained within ObamaCare:

    ObamaCare Taxes That Most Likely Won't Effect the 98%

    • 2.3% Tax on Medical Device Manufacturers
    • 10% Tax on Indoor Tanning Services
    • Blue Cross/Blue Shield Tax Hike
    • Excise Tax on Charitable Hospitals which fail to comply with the requirements of ObamaCare
    • Tax on Brand Name Drugs
    • Tax on Health Insurers
    • $500,000 Annual Executive Compensation Limit for Health Insurance Executives
    • Employer Reporting of Insurance on W-2 (not a tax)
    • Corporate 1099-MISC Information Reporting (repealed)
    • Codification of the "economic substance doctrine" (not a tax)
    • Elimination of tax deduction for employer-provided retirement Rx drug coverage in coordination with Medicare Part D
    • Employer Mandate on business with over 50 full-time employees to provide health insurance. $2000 per employee $3000 if employee uses tax credits to buy insurance on the exchange.
    • Medicare Tax on Investment Income 3.8% over $200k/$250k
    • Medicare Part A Tax increase of .9% over $200k/$250k

    ObamaCare Taxes That (may) Effect the 98%

    • 40% Excise Tax "Cadillac" on high-end Premium Health Insurance Plans 2018

    • An annual $63 fee levied by ObamaCare on all plans (decreased each year until 2017 when pre-existing conditions are eliminated) to help pay for insurance companies covering the costs of high-risk pools.

    • Medicine Cabinet Tax In Effect
    Over the counter medicines no longer qualified as medical expenses for flexible spending accounts (FSAs), health reimbursement arrangements (HRAs), health savings accounts (HSAs), and Archer Medical Saving accounts (MSAs).

    • Additional Tax on HSA/MSA Distributions
    Health savings account or an Archer medical savings account, penalties for spending money on non-qualified medical expenses. 10% to 20% in the case of a HSA and from 15% to 20% in the case of a MSA.

    • Flexible Spending Account Cap 2013
    Contributions to FSAs are reduced to $2,500 from $5,000.

    • Medical Deduction Threshold tax increase 2013
    Threshold to deduct medical expenses as an itemized deduction increases to 10% from 7.5%.

    • Individual Mandate (the tax for not purchasing insurance if you can afford it) 2014
    Starting in 2014, anyone not buying "qualifying" health insurance must pay an income tax surtax at a rate of 1% or $95 in 2014 to 2.5% in 2016 on profitable income above the tax threshold. The total penalty amount cannot exceed the national average of the annual premiums of a "bronze level" health insurance plan on ObamaCare exchanges.

    The link below provides a full list of ObamaCare Taxes by the IRS.

    For a full list of taxes provisions from the IRS

    Or see the latest publication by the joint tax committee on the Affordable Care Act.

    ObamaCare Home Sales Tax / ObamaCare Real Estate Tax Increase

    ObamaCare increases taxes on unearned income by 3.8%. This also applies to home sales over a certain amount. The 3.8% homes sales tax typically doesn't apply to your primary residence. It also doesn't usually apply to homes you have owned for over 5 years or on profits of less than $300k.

    In short the ObamaCare home sales tax isn't something that most of us will pay, it is a tax is aimed at people who won't be crippled by the tax, not at the average American buying and selling their primary residence.

    What Increases Do the ObamaCare Taxes Include for The $200k/$250k Earners?

    ObamaCare Medicare Part A Payroll Tax

    Starting in 2013, ObamaCare taxes individuals with earnings above $200,000 and married couples making more than $250,000. This tax is an increase to the Medicare part A payroll tax. It's an increase of 2.35%, up from the current 1.45% ( a .9% Medicare payroll tax hike), on adjusted income over the threshold.

    ObamaCare Unearned Income Tax

    This group will also pay a 3.8% unearned income tax on interest, dividends, annuities, royalties, rents, and gains on the sale of investments over the threshold.

    Taxable income under the $200/$250k threshold is subject to the same benefits and tax cuts as those who make under the threshold.

    ObamaCare Employer / Employee Taxes

    Medicare part A Tax Hike for Employers and Employees

    The ObamaCare small business Medicare tax hike is a .9% increase on the current Medicare part A tax. Small businesses making under $250k in taxable profit don't have to pay this ObamaCare small business tax increase. Employees with earnings under $200 / $250k don't have to pay this either.

    The Employer Mandate

    Unless you own a company that has over 50 employees, you do not have to insure your employees. If you exceed these amounts, you have to either insure your employees or pay a penalty. The penalty is $2000 per employee and $3000 if they use tax credits to purchase insurance on the exchange.

    Employers with under 25 full time employees, whose average income doesn't exceed $50k, can apply for tax credits of up to 30% for insuring their employees.

    In other words, the ObamaCare taxes help small business employees and employers by offering them better health insurance and bigger tax breaks.

    Please be aware that if you have employer-based health insurance there are a number of factors that could affect you, from employers lowering the quality of high costs health care plans by 2018 to avoid the "Cadillac" tax and employers cutting hours to part-time to avoid the "employer mandate".

    Other ObamaCare Taxes on Big Business

    Aside from having to adhere to the "employer mandate" ObamaCare also imposes taxes and fees that are unique to big business. ObamaCare taxes some medical device manufactures, drug companies and health insurance companies. Beginning in 2013, medical device manufacturers and importers must pay a 2.3% tax on the sale of a taxable medical device. This raises $29 billion over a 10 years. However, many states are asking to delay the medical device excise tax to protect jobs in states that produce the devices. An annual fee for health insurers is expected to raise more than $100 billion over 10 years, while a fee for brand name drugs will bring in another $34 billion.

    ObamaCare "Cadillac" Tax

    Starting in 2018, the new health care law imposes a 40% excise tax on the portion of most employer-sponsored health coverage (this excludes dental and vision) that exceed $10,200 a year and $27,500 for families. The tax has been dubbed a "Cadillac" tax because it hits only high-end "gold", "platinum" and high-end health care plans not purchased on the exchange. The tax raises over $150 billion over the next 10 years.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 10-09-2013 at 02:18 PM.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Obamacare is set up to be self funding- won't be effected by extending or not extending the debt ceiling.
    Yep, and Iraq war was set up to cost $50B.

    Gummit plans and projections are amazing.


    Iraq war ends with a $4 trillion IOU - MarketWatch
    http://www.marketwatch.com/.../iraq-...12-1...‎
    Dec 15, 2011 - The nine-year-old Iraq war came to an official end on Thursday, but ... war, the U.S. Defense Department estimated it would cost $50 billion to $80 billion. ... “The direct costs for the war were about $800 billion, but the indirect ...

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    The penalty is not a major source of funding for it. They added a lot of new taxes.
    http://obamacarefacts.com/obamacare-taxes.php
    No $#@!, they added a lot of new taxes. And who will pay those? The people purchasing insurance. If you tax an insurance company they will pass it on. The same with all of the other taxes not taken directly from the insured.
    "When a portion of wealth is transferred from the person who owns it—without his consent and without compensation, and whether by force or by fraud—to anyone who does not own it, then I say that property is violated; that an act of plunder is committed." - Bastiat : The Law

    "nothing evil grows in alcohol" ~ @presence

    "I mean can you imagine what it would be like if firemen acted like police officers? They would only go into a burning house only if there's a 100% chance they won't get any burns. I mean, you've got to fully protect thy self first." ~ juleswin

  31. #27
    'Dollar valueless, about to crash' - World Bank whistleblower

    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  32. #28
    The lady in the video says there is a lot more gold than is being reported to the public. If that's so, then there is manipulation of inflation and gold prices. And, there is under reporting of mining operations, no?

    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    'Dollar valueless, about to crash' - World Bank whistleblower

    "When a portion of wealth is transferred from the person who owns it—without his consent and without compensation, and whether by force or by fraud—to anyone who does not own it, then I say that property is violated; that an act of plunder is committed." - Bastiat : The Law

    "nothing evil grows in alcohol" ~ @presence

    "I mean can you imagine what it would be like if firemen acted like police officers? They would only go into a burning house only if there's a 100% chance they won't get any burns. I mean, you've got to fully protect thy self first." ~ juleswin

  33. #29
    I think a lot of it has to do with many other nations taking steps toward dumping the US Dollar as their reserve currency.

    Something I just noticed, the fact they do NOT call the US Dollar the "Worlds Reserve Money", they call it "Currency". Difference being that Currency is typically Fiat Currency, which "Leaks" its Value, Money on the other hand Retains its Value. The difference is between Gold and a Cheeseburger. Gold will always be Gold. A Cheeseburger is only edible for a while before it gets cold, eventually becomes moldy, then becomes inedible.
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    I think a lot of it has to do with many other nations taking steps toward dumping the US Dollar as their reserve currency.

    Something I just noticed, the fact they do NOT call the US Dollar the "Worlds Reserve Money", they call it "Currency". Difference being that Currency is typically Fiat Currency, which "Leaks" its Value, Money on the other hand Retains its Value. The difference is between Gold and a Cheeseburger. Gold will always be Gold. A Cheeseburger is only edible for a while before it gets cold, eventually becomes moldy, then becomes inedible.
    In the video that you posted, she said that there is more gold in the Bank of Hawaii (170,000 tons) than is reported to be in the whole world (entire earth). Listen at the 14 min mark.
    Last edited by ClydeCoulter; 10-09-2013 at 05:22 PM.
    "When a portion of wealth is transferred from the person who owns it—without his consent and without compensation, and whether by force or by fraud—to anyone who does not own it, then I say that property is violated; that an act of plunder is committed." - Bastiat : The Law

    "nothing evil grows in alcohol" ~ @presence

    "I mean can you imagine what it would be like if firemen acted like police officers? They would only go into a burning house only if there's a 100% chance they won't get any burns. I mean, you've got to fully protect thy self first." ~ juleswin

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