The Early Church Fathers and Free Will

[heavenlyboy34]

I don't say necessarily that Roman Catholics worship the Pope. Some may. Roman Catholics do worship Mary and other dead people, because they pray to them, and prayer is a form of worship.

Why did you leave the Roman Catholic church?

That is false. The Roman Church is schismatic and heretical, but they do NOT worship Mary. C'mon, do some basic research before you start pretending that you know what you're talking about.

[Sola_Fide]

That is false. The Roman Church is schismatic and heretical, but they do NOT worship Mary. C'mon, do some basic research before you start pretending that you know what you're talking about.

You don't know what you're talking about. They pray to Mary, and prayer is a form of worship.

[RJB]

No, I'm not a Calvinist. Calvinism, the ones I read today, are not Biblical. Thank you, but I will define what I believe to you. You won't define what I believe and then tell me.

See your post below. LOL

I don't say necessarily that Roman Catholics worship the Pope.

You did! In fact 3 times you posted fabricated quotations? What kind of seekers of truth would fabricate lies, Sola?

Some may

More lies.

. Roman Catholics do worship Mary and other dead people, because they pray to them, and prayer is a form of worship.

No they don't and no it isn't. You should respect others as you wish them to respect you.

Why did you leave the Roman Catholic church?

I should write it out. I've spoken of it some on the forum. BTW. I notice you never speak of your own conversion. Why?

[heavenlyboy34]

You don't know what you're talking about. They pray to Mary, and prayer is a form of worship.

I do know what I'm talking about. The Roman Church venerates Mary-they do not worship her. Please, pick up a book and educate yourself-you're looking like an INCREDIBLY ignorant fool right now. You won't find a single article or statement in the RCC catechism or any formal RC doctrine about worship of Mary-nor will you likely even look because you simply don't care (at least, your history demonstrates you don't).

Word to the Wise-stick to arguments that you can prove. People will be more inclined to take you seriously that way. ~hugs~

[Sola_Fide]

See your post below. LOL

You did! In fact 3 times you posted fabricated quotations? What kind of seekers of truth would fabricate lies, Sola?



More lies.
No they don't and no it isn't. You should respect others as you wish them to respect you.

I should write it out. I've spoken of it some on the forum. BTW. I notice you never speak of your own conversion. Why?

Whoa whoa whoa. Prayer is not a form of worship? Or Roman Catholics don't pray to Mary? Which one?

[Sola_Fide]

I do know what I'm talking about. The Roman Church venerates Mary-they do not worship her. Please, pick up a book and educate yourself-you're looking like an INCREDIBLY ignorant fool right now. You won't find a single article or statement in the RCC catechism or any formal RC doctrine about worship of Mary-nor will you likely even look because you simply don't care (at least, your history demonstrates you don't).

No. You are showing your ignorance, and idolatry, because prayer is worship, especially prayers for intercession.

[heavenlyboy34]

No. You are showing your ignorance, and idolatry, because prayer is worship, especially prayers for intercession.

You're still wrong. That's why you can't quote any authority in Catholicism to prove your claim. I did my homework when I was a catechumen. Now it's your turn to FINALLY take the time to learn something demonstrably true. ~hugs~

[TER]

Here is a quote from St. Justin Martyr, from the second century, in a writing which has been held to be orthodox and in accordance to the apostolic Christian faith in every community of believers which can trace themselves through apostolic succession to the first century (namely, the Eastern Orthodox, the Oreiental Orthodox, the Roman Catholic Church, and arguably the Anglican Church):

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man's actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.” (Apology 1 Ch.43)

[TER]

Another great paragraph, referring to the fact that although God is Supreme and His Divine plan will be done, men have been given the freedom of will and choice to do things they do and whether to reject Him or accept Him. God is blameless for the sins of man and bears no responsibility to the evil that they do. We, in this life, have been given a great gift, and it is up to use it wisely :

“And the holy Spirit of prophecy taught us this, telling us by Moses that God spoke thus to the man first created: "Behold, before thy face are good and evil: choose the good." And again, by the other prophet Isaiah, that the following utterance was made as if from God the Father and Lord of all: "Wash you, make you clean; put away evils from your souls; learn to do well; judge the orphan, and plead for the widow: and come and let us reason together, saith the Lord: And if your sins be as scarlet, I will make them white as wool; and if they be red like as crimson, I will make them white as snow. And if ye be willing and obey Me, ye shall eat the good of the land; but if ye do not obey Me, the sword shall devour you: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it." And that expression, "The sword shall devour you," does not mean that the disobedient shall be slain by the sword, but the sword of God is fire, of which they who choose to do wickedly become the fuel.

Wherefore He says, "The sword shall devour you: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it." And if He had spoken concerning a sword that cuts and at once despatches, He would not have said, shall devour. And so, too, Plato, when he says, "The blame is his who chooses, and God is blameless," took this from the prophet Moses and uttered it. For Moses is more ancient than all the Greek writers. And whatever both philosophers and poets have said concerning the immortality of the soul, or punishments after death, or contemplation of things heavenly, or doctrines of the like kind, they have received such suggestions from the prophets as have enabled them to understand and interpret these things. And hence there seem to be seeds of truth among all men; but they are charged with not accurately understanding [the truth] when they assert contradictories.…” (Apology 1 Chapter 44)

[TER]

Here is a great one which touches on how the fruits and final conclusion of "double-predestination" (which is a teaching of John Calvin) is the demonization of God.

“Wherefore God delays causing the confusion and destruction of the whole world, by which the wicked angels and demons and men shall cease to exist, because of the seed of the Christians, who know that they are the cause of preservation in nature. Since, if it were not so, it would not have been possible for you to do these things, and to be impelled by evil spirits; but the fire of judgment would descend and utterly dissolve all things, even as formerly the flood left no one but him only with his family who is by us called Noah, and by you Deucalion, from whom again such vast numbers have sprung, some of them evil and others good. For so we say that there will be the conflagration, but not as the Stoics, according to their doctrine of all things being changed into one another, which seems most degrading. But neither do we affirm that it is by fate that men do what they do, or suffer what they suffer, but that each man by free choice acts rightly or sins; and that it is by the influence of the wicked demons that earnest men, such as Socrates and the like, suflcr persecution and are in bonds, while Sardanapalus, Epicurus, and the like, seem to be blessed in abundance and glory. The Stoics, not observing this, maintained that all things take place according to the necessity of fate. But since God in the beginning made the race of angels and men with free-will, they will justly suffer in eternal fire the punishment of whatever sins they have committed. And this is the nature of all that is made, to be capable of vice and virtue. For neither would any of them be praiseworthy unless there were power to turn to both [virtue and vice]. And this also is shown by those men everywhere who have made laws and philosophized according to right reason, by their prescribing to do some things and refrain from others. Even the Stoic philosophers, in their doctrine of morals, steadily honour the same things, so that it is evident that they are not very felicitous in what they say about principles and incorporeal things. For if they say that human actions come to pass by fate, they will maintain either that God is nothing else than the things which are ever turning, and altering, and dissolving into the same things, and will appear to have had a comprehension only of things that are destructible, and to have looked on God Himself as emerging both in part and in whole in every wickedness; or that neither vice nor virtue is anything; which is contrary to every sound idea, reason, and sense.”

[TER]

Some more teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ in the second century...


Now, we know that he did not go to the river because He stood in need of baptism, or of the descent of the Spirit like a dove; even as He submitted to be born and to be crucified, not because He needed such things, but because of the human race, which from Adam had fallen under the power of death and the guile of the serpent, and each one of which had committed personal transgression. For God, wishing both angels and men, who were endowed with freewill, and at their own disposal, to do whatever He had strengthened each to do, made them so, that if they chose the things acceptable to Himself, He would keep them free from death and from punishment; but that if they did evil, He would punish each as He sees fit. For it was not His entrance into Jerusalem sitting on an ass, which we have showed was prophesied, that empowered Him to be Christ, but it furnished men with a proof that He is the Christ; just as it was necessary in the time of John that men have proof, that they might know who is Christ.…”. (Dialogue 88)

[TER]

Although God is Creator, man's free will is guarded by Him so that it is entirely their choice to do the things they do:


“…As soon as He was born in Bethlehem, as I previously remarked, king Herod, having learned from the Arabian Magi about Him, made a plot to put Him to death and by God's command Joseph took Him with Mary and departed into Egypt. For the Father had decreed that He whom He had begotten should be put to death, but not before He had grown to manhood, and proclaimed the word which proceeded from Him. But if any of you say to us, Could not God rather have put Herod to death? I return answer by anticipation: Could not God have cut off in the beginning the serpent, so that he exist not, rather than have said, 'And I will put enmity between him and the woman, and between his seed and her seed?' Could He not have at once created a multitude of men? But yet, since He knew that it would be good, He created both angels and men free to do that which is righteous, and He appointed periods of time during which He knew it would be good for them to have the exercise of free-will; and because He likewise knew it would be good, He made general and particular judgments; each one's freedom of will, however, [i]being guarded[/]…” (Dialogue 102)

[TER]

In this paragraph, the idea that men's actions were predestined in the Calvinistic sense are utterly destroyed:

But that you may not have a pretext for saying that Christ must have been crucified, and that those who transgressed must have been among your nation, and that the matter could not have been otherwise, I said briefly by anticipation, that God, wishing men and angels to follow His will, resolved to create them free to do righteousness; possessing reason, that they may know by whom they are created, and through whom they, not existing formerly, do now exist; and with a law that they should be judged by Him, if they do anything contrary to right reason: and of ourselves we, men and angels, shall be convicted of having acted sinfully, unless we repent beforehand. But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, 'Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;' that is, having repented of his sins, that he may receive remission of them from God; and not as you deceive yourselves, and some others who resemble you in this, who say, that even though they be sinners, but know God, the Lord will not impute sin to them. We have as proof of this the one fall of David, which happened through his boasting, which was forgiven then when he so mourned and wept, as it is written. But if even to such a man no remission was granted before repentance, and only when this great king, and anointed one, and prophet, mourned and conducted himself so, how can the impure and utterly abandoned, if they weep not, and mourn not, and repent not, entertain the hope that the Lord will not impute to them sin? And this one fall of David, in the matter of Uriah's wife, proves, sirs," I said, "that the patriarchs had many wives, not to commit fornication, but that a certain dispensation and all mysteries might be accomplished by them; since, if it were allowable to take any wife, or as many wives as one chooses, and how he chooses, which the men of your nation do over all the earth, wherever they sojourn, or wherever they have been sent, taking women under the name of marriage, much more would David have been permitted to do this.” (Dialogue 141)