Jesus & Anarchist [Mod title update]

[Peace&Freedom]

Scheduled for an appearance,, but I don't have an exact date.
Will arrive in Jerusalem.

We don't have an exact date, but, He did indicate the events of the Second Advent would happen sometime after the generation that saw the return of Jerusalem to control by the Israeli people. Per Revelation, the end of the age would also be upon us when it was logistically possible to track, monitor or permit/prevent everybody's economic activity (the Beast system), which appears to be about now. To many believers, Hosea 6:1-2 teaches Jews would be risen after "2 days" (prophetic speech for 2 thousand years), which corresponds to the 2,000 year history of the Christian church.

Other (non-biblical) markers are the predictions of historic Christian figures (2nd century Barnabus et al) believed world history from Creation to the start of the millenium would be 6 prophetic days, with the final 2 'days' being the 2000 years of the Church. Since the church era started about 32 AD, that would place the Return by or before 2032 AD. Luther (circa early 1500's) likewise believed the Messiah would return in about 500 years after his time.

[Theocrat]

You know, when people assert that "Jesus is an anarchist," I have to ask them the simple question, "Do you New Testament, much?" Over and over in the New Testament, Christ talks about His Kingdom, and it's not "kingdom" as some abstract, spiritual ideal for a relationship with Christ (though there is an aspect of truth to that); it's "kingdom" in the sense of something tangible and historical, which grows and has its being throughout the course of the ages.

One such evidence of that reality can be found in a prophetic word, Isaiah 9:7, which reads, "Of the increase of His government and peace, there shall be no end, upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom, to order it and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this." Jesus, as King of kings, has His domain in civil governance, under which even the "kings" and "rulers" of our time must submit. Indeed, Jesus taught His disciples that very thing in "The Lord's Prayer," when He stated, "Thy Kingdom come. Thy will be done in Earth, as it is in Heaven." (Matthew 6:10)

So, I don't see how Jesus can be labeled as One Who is vehemently against the establishment of civil polities (such as government bodies of legislation and public policy served towards a particular group of citizenry), which is what anarchy stands for, when He appeals to a civil polity ("kingdom") as the very place where He will rule the nations. Unless I'm wrong about what "anarchy" is, I don't believe that there is any Biblical case to prove that Jesus was, in fact, an anarchist. But, as some have mentioned in this thread, the term "anarchy" can have multiple definitions, too.

[Ronin Truth]

You know, when people assert that "Jesus is an anarchist," I have to ask them the simple question, "Do you New Testament, much?" Over and over in the New Testament, Christ talks about His Kingdom, and it's not "kingdom" as some abstract, spiritual ideal for a relationship with Christ (though there is an aspect of truth to that); it's "kingdom" in the sense of something tangible and historical, which grows and has its being throughout the course of the ages.

One such evidence of that reality can be found in a prophetic word, Isaiah 9:7, which reads, "Of the increase of His government and peace, there shall be no end, upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom, to order it and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this." Jesus, as King of kings, has His domain in civil governance, under which even the "kings" and "rulers" of our time must submit. Indeed, Jesus taught His disciples that very thing in "The Lord's Prayer," when He stated, "Thy Kingdom come. Thy will be done in Earth, as it is in Heaven." (Matthew 6:10)

So, I don't see how Jesus can be labeled as One Who is vehemently against the establishment of civil polities (such as government bodies of legislation and public policy served towards a particular group of citizenry), which is what anarchy stands for, when He appeals to a civil polity ("kingdom") as the very place where He will rule the nations. Unless I'm wrong about what "anarchy" is, I don't believe that there is any Biblical case to prove that Jesus was, in fact, an anarchist. But, as some have mentioned in this thread, the term "anarchy" can have multiple definitions, too.

If Satan rules and controls the world's human governments, which ones does Jesus respect and adore?

Jesus Is an Anarchist (pdf)

[Theocrat]

If Satan rules and controls the world's human governments, which ones does Jesus respect and adore?

Jesus Is an Anarchist (pdf)

I don't accept the claim that Satan rules and controls the world's human governments, and such an idea gives too much power and credit to Satan, anyway (as if Satan has equal sovereignty in the world with Jesus Christ). Jesus has authority in Heaven and on Earth (cf. Matthew 28:16-20). His resurrection is the main justification that all of the nations belong to Him, theologically speaking.

[Ronin Truth]

I don't accept the claim that Satan rules and controls the world's human governments, and such an idea gives too much power and credit to Satan, anyway (as if Satan has equal sovereignty in the world with Jesus Christ). Jesus has authority in Heaven and on Earth (cf. Matthew 28:16-20). His resurrection is the main justification that all of the nations belong to Him, theologically speaking.

Anything else in the New Testament that you choose not to accept and/or reject?

Luke 4:5-7
Hebrews 4:15
1 John 5:19
James 4:4-7
1 John 2:15-17
Matthew 20:25-26
Ephesians 6:12
Philippians 3:20
Hebrews 13:14
Acts 4:26
Revelation 19:19
Revelation 16:14
Revelation 11:15
1 Corinthians 15:24
etc., etc.

[Peace&Freedom]

You know, when people assert that "Jesus is an anarchist," I have to ask them the simple question, "Do you New Testament, much?" Over and over in the New Testament, Christ talks about His Kingdom, and it's not "kingdom" as some abstract, spiritual ideal for a relationship with Christ (though there is an aspect of truth to that); it's "kingdom" in the sense of something tangible and historical, which grows and has its being throughout the course of the ages.

One such evidence of that reality can be found in a prophetic word, Isaiah 9:7, which reads, "Of the increase of His government and peace, there shall be no end, upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom, to order it and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this." Jesus, as King of kings, has His domain in civil governance, under which even the "kings" and "rulers" of our time must submit. Indeed, Jesus taught His disciples that very thing in "The Lord's Prayer," when He stated, "Thy Kingdom come. Thy will be done in Earth, as it is in Heaven." (Matthew 6:10)

So, I don't see how Jesus can be labeled as One Who is vehemently against the establishment of civil polities (such as government bodies of legislation and public policy served towards a particular group of citizenry), which is what anarchy stands for, when He appeals to a civil polity ("kingdom") as the very place where He will rule the nations. Unless I'm wrong about what "anarchy" is, I don't believe that there is any Biblical case to prove that Jesus was, in fact, an anarchist. But, as some have mentioned in this thread, the term "anarchy" can have multiple definitions, too.

I would first say, briefly, that while God has a Kingdom, and it is definitely literal/historic or real, one enters into it and into His covenant on a voluntary basis. It is a voluntary order based on a recognition of His rightful authority an law, not a human civil government, that typically asserts authoritarian, monopoly control on everyone whether they consented to be under its rule or not. In this respect, it is an anarchist kingdom 100% free of false authority elements.

Second, the God of the new Testament is the same God of the Old Testament, whose attitude towards human civil government is reflected through His prophet in I Samuel chapter 8. Rather than set up another human kingdom that would take their land and crops, turn their sons into horsemen and troops, loot the people through taxes, or erect monuments to its rulers, etc., Samuel said the people could simply continue the simple anarchistic, non-authoritarian system of judges that had served them for hundreds of years. This plea by a prophet of God clearly teaches there is a legitimate anarchistic alternative to civil government, even as He still permitted the people to choose the latter anyway.

[Voluntarist]

xxxxx

[GunnyFreedom]

Having entered the kingdon, can you then secede from it?

Sure. Blaspheme the Holy Spirit and go straight to hell, and do not pass go. Secession, successful.

[TheTexan]

Sure. Blaspheme the Holy Spirit and go straight to hell, and do not pass go. Secession, successful.

Why does everyone assume that hell is such a bad place? Sure, that's how it's written in the bible, but that's just like, Jesus' opinion, .. man.

[GunnyFreedom]

Why does everyone assume that hell is such a bad place? Sure, that's how it's written in the bible, but that's just like, Jesus' opinion, .. man.

Actually, 'hell' is really just the end-state of nihilism. It is nothingness and dissolution. Ask an atheist "what becomes of you after you die?" and they will say, "nothingness" and they are actually correct. While I personally prefer the Kingdom over eternal dissolution, you will note that in my post to which you have replied, I did not in fact make any value-judgement whatsoever on the nature of hell whatsoever.

[TheTexan]

Actually, 'hell' is really just the end-state of nihilism. It is nothingness and dissolution. Ask an atheist "what becomes of you after you die?" and they will say, "nothingness" and they are actually correct. While I personally prefer the Kingdom over eternal dissolution, you will note that in my post to which you have replied, I did not in fact make any value-judgement whatsoever on the nature of hell whatsoever.

Huh, neat. I always thought Jesus was kind of an $#@!, but you make him sound like an OK guy!

[erowe1]

I don't accept the claim that Satan rules and controls the world's human governments, and such an idea gives too much power and credit to Satan, anyway (as if Satan has equal sovereignty in the world with Jesus Christ). Jesus has authority in Heaven and on Earth (cf. Matthew 28:16-20). His resurrection is the main justification that all of the nations belong to Him, theologically speaking.

It doesn't put Satan on a par with Jesus. Satan's control over human kings is delegated authority. Satan himself is always underneath God's sovereignty. What Satan does with his minions who claim for themselves rule that rightly belongs to Jesus Christ alone ultimately serves God's purposes, although neither Satan nor those kings mean it to and they sin when they do those very deeds of tyranny through which God works out his purposes.

[erowe1]

Having entered the kingdon, can you then secede from it?

Those who do enter the kingdom won't choose to.

"Your people will be volunteers in the day of your power." (Psalm 110:3).

[pcosmar]

I don't accept the claim that Satan rules and controls the world's human governments, and such an idea gives too much power and credit to Satan, anyway (as if Satan has equal sovereignty in the world with Jesus Christ). Jesus has authority in Heaven and on Earth (cf. Matthew 28:16-20). His resurrection is the main justification that all of the nations belong to Him, theologically speaking.

Satan still walks and administers this present world.
Christ will put an end to it.. it is a done deal.. but time has not come to that point yet.

At this point.
Luke 4

5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.

Satan is working toward his throne in Jerusalem. But he holds all earthly governments.

ever since the very first human government.

[Peace&Freedom]

Satan still walks and administers this present world.
Christ will put an end to it.. it is a done deal.. but time has not come to that point yet.

At this point.
Luke 4


Satan is working toward his throne in Jerusalem. But he holds all earthly governments.

ever since the very first human government.

And this factor, along with the sin nature, of course, is why all attempts at human civil government have eventually failed. The only earthly exception has been the non-governmental, anarchistic theocracy of ancient Israel, and (presently) the millennial Kingdom to be instituted at the return of Christ. The Bible does not seem to indicate it is possible for even anarchism to work, without God at the center. The Lord, always and forever, is the secret sauce.

It has arguably been the point of biblical history, and the 6,000 years of human civilization to show that Man could not succeed at governance on his own, due to sin and demonic influence. As the rest of the history of the kings of Israel and Judah showed, even a special people chosen by God and advised by His prophets lived in near constant disobedience, war, and disaster over the centuries. The whole point of those six 'days' was to prepare the race to finally accept Christ as ruler of the earthly kingdom during the seventh 'day' of civilized history, where we will enter His day of rest during the Millennium.

[Voluntarist]

xxxxx

[Voluntarist]

xxxxx

[Ronin Truth]

So evidently, in addition to their being no way to amically secede - one also doesn't choose to enter the kingdom. I gotta tell ya, it certainly doesn't sound like anarchy.

Anarchy refers to human's government not to God's monarchy.

[ChristianAnarchist]

Ok, well and true... but of secular government?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_anarchism

How is it I'm just now discovering this thread?? Of course Jesus was an anarchist. Of course we are all "anarchists" because that is the unrecognized truth of our existence. God did not grant authority to ANY "government". There is no "delegation order" from God to Obama to be president of a legal fiction call "USA". We currently live under "anarchy" and we have ALWAYS lived under anarchy because there is NO LEGITIMATE AUTHORITY for any man to "rule" over another man. Each of us individually have NO "authority" over our neighbor so it follows that we cannot "delegate" authority we don't have to any entity. "Governments" only exist in the mind of the believers and when we stop "believing" in that false god it will cease to be an issue in our lives.

We don't have "governments" we have gangs of goons with guns stealing and murdering. That's "anarchy"...

[robert68]

How is it I'm just now discovering this thread?? Of course Jesus was an anarchist. Of course we are all "anarchists" because that is the unrecognized truth of our existence. God did not grant authority to ANY "government". There is no "delegation order" from God to Obama to be president of a legal fiction call "USA". We currently live under "anarchy" and we have ALWAYS lived under anarchy because there is NO LEGITIMATE AUTHORITY for any man to "rule" over another man. Each of us individually have NO "authority" over our neighbor so it follows that we cannot "delegate" authority we don't have to any entity. "Governments" only exist in the mind of the believers and when we stop "believing" in that false god it will cease to be an issue in our lives.

We don't have "governments" we have gangs of goons with guns stealing and murdering. That's "anarchy"...

Why do you have the authority to say who "God" did and didn't grant authority to?

[TheTexan]

Why do you have the authority to say who "God" did and didn't grant authority to?

Yup.

Choose for your tribes wise, understanding, and experienced men, and I will appoint them as your heads.’

Bam! Voting ftw.

Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed

Yay, Jesus loves our government! Why do you hate our government... do you hate Jesus?

[Theocrat]

It doesn't put Satan on a par with Jesus. Satan's control over human kings is delegated authority. Satan himself is always underneath God's sovereignty. What Satan does with his minions who claim for themselves rule that rightly belongs to Jesus Christ alone ultimately serves God's purposes, although neither Satan nor those kings mean it to and they sin when they do those very deeds of tyranny through which God works out his purposes.

Where does God reveal that Satan has control over human kings, though?

[ChristianAnarchist]

Why do you have the authority to say who "God" did and didn't grant authority to?

Actually you are correct and I certainly acknowledge that I DO NOT have any authority from God. What I DO have is doubt that ANYONE has such authority and if they do, they need to prove it to me or I do not acknowledge it. Since they have never provided any such proof to me or anyone else that I know of, I do not acknowledge that they have any such "authority". If you can show me a delegation order from God to Obama with God's signature on it then we can talk...

[ChristianAnarchist]

Yay, Jesus loves our government! Why do you hate our government... do you hate Jesus?

Not sure if this is directed toward me but I can certainly answer it. I DO NOT hate "our government" simply because "we" don't have one. Any form of "government" is a "legal fiction" (please look this up) and I cannot "hate" what does not exist. I certainly "hate" that so many people actually "believe" in this fiction to the point that some of them will actually take my stuff or even kill me because they "believe" that their fiction has granted them such power. In reality, they have no more "authority" than the mafia and their violence is just as sinful...

[erowe1]

So evidently, in addition to their being no way to amically secede - one also doesn't choose to enter the kingdom. I gotta tell ya, it certainly doesn't sound like anarchy.

Evidently based on what?

And why would any of those things have anything to do with whether or not it's anarchy?

[erowe1]

Where does God reveal that Satan has control over human kings, though?

Matthew 4:8-10

8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”

10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’”

[TheTexan]

Not sure if this is directed toward me but I can certainly answer it. I DO NOT hate "our government" simply because "we" don't have one. Any form of "government" is a "legal fiction" (please look this up) and I cannot "hate" what does not exist. I certainly "hate" that so many people actually "believe" in this fiction to the point that some of them will actually take my stuff or even kill me because they "believe" that their fiction has granted them such power. In reality, they have no more "authority" than the mafia and their violence is just as sinful...

Not according to Jesus. Romans 13:1

Let every person be subject to the governing authorities; for there is no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.
For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Do you wish to have no fear of the authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive its approval;
for it is God's servant for your good. But if you do what is wrong, you should be afraid, for the authority does not bear the sword in vain! It is the servant of God to execute wrath on the wrongdoer.
Therefore one must be subject, not only because of wrath but also because of conscience.
For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, busy with this very thing.

[Christian Liberty]

You know, when people assert that "Jesus is an anarchist," I have to ask them the simple question, "Do you New Testament, much?" Over and over in the New Testament, Christ talks about His Kingdom, and it's not "kingdom" as some abstract, spiritual ideal for a relationship with Christ (though there is an aspect of truth to that); it's "kingdom" in the sense of something tangible and historical, which grows and has its being throughout the course of the ages.

One such evidence of that reality can be found in a prophetic word, Isaiah 9:7, which reads, "Of the increase of His government and peace, there shall be no end, upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom, to order it and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this." Jesus, as King of kings, has His domain in civil governance, under which even the "kings" and "rulers" of our time must submit. Indeed, Jesus taught His disciples that very thing in "The Lord's Prayer," when He stated, "Thy Kingdom come. Thy will be done in Earth, as it is in Heaven." (Matthew 6:10)

So, I don't see how Jesus can be labeled as One Who is vehemently against the establishment of civil polities (such as government bodies of legislation and public policy served towards a particular group of citizenry), which is what anarchy stands for, when He appeals to a civil polity ("kingdom") as the very place where He will rule the nations. Unless I'm wrong about what "anarchy" is, I don't believe that there is any Biblical case to prove that Jesus was, in fact, an anarchist. But, as some have mentioned in this thread, the term "anarchy" can have multiple definitions, too.

This gets at some important points. erowe1 does not call himself "anarchist" for precisely this reason, and I've moved gradually away from calling myself one for the same reason. "No rulers but Christ" and "no rulers" may temporally have similar applications... maybe... but they aren't the same thing and the difference isn't trivial. I'm moving more in your direction on this point, in a temporal sense.

That said, I still suspect we'd disagree on some of these points. I do not think non-voluntary, non-divine kings are able to be justified in the current era. A Christian should not endorse such a position as one that exists in society. Nor should he endorse the role of "President" or any other office in which some people rule over others without their permission. Perhaps the key verse here would be Matthew 20:25-26. The gentile pagan system of government is some people ruling over others with force, but this is not Biblical.

Part of this would be I don't agree with postmillennialism, and as such I don't believe humans are supposed to impose Christ's kingdom as a political entity. I'm guessing you are postmil and do believe we should.

I support a system of private courts, private security, and so forth which I believe can perform governmental functions without a state. This viewpoint is sometimes called "anarchy" but I suspect that's not how you're using the term. I see the Isaiah prophecy as being fulfilled through Christ himself, so I don't see how any human king (aside from Christ) could fulfill it.

I think most of our differences come down to two things:

1. Some of it is just technical/definitional

2. Some of it comes down to postmillennialism and theonomic reconstructionism, which I think you hold to and I don't. I understand and respect those positions, but I don't agree with them.

[Christian Liberty]

someone please tell me bxm is trolling...

[heavenlyboy34]

Satan still walks and administers this present world.
Christ will put an end to it.. it is a done deal.. but time has not come to that point yet.

At this point.
Luke 4


Satan is working toward his throne in Jerusalem. But he holds all earthly governments.

ever since the very first human government.

This^^ also, if we follow Theo's reasoning, it makes God the ultimate author of Evil (as States are the greatest concentration of human evil).