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Thread: I don't believe in Jesus Christ

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    No offense but again, bull$#@!.

    I do NOT need the existence of a God to be a good person. Nor does believing that I am a good person somehow imply that I believe in god. I dont, and I dont need people to shove words in my mouth. God doesnt exist, and I am still a good person.
    By what standard are you good?



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    If there is no God, then there's no such thing as a "good person" or even goodness. Edward Snowden's whistle blowing is no more morally good than wind hitting a rock, unless there's a God.

    Of course this doesn't mean that atheists can never recognize moral goodness. Atheists, after all, are created in God's image.
    Twisting facts to support a desired conclusion is just as frequenty enacted by Politicians, Pollsters, and Marketers. Thus, when asked do you believe in God and a person says "No but I still believe I am a good person", the interpreter will interpret this as the person believing in god. Big problem is that it will go on record as such, and purposefully misrepresents the person who flat out said they do not believe in god.

    I do believe that Speed Cams are also immoral. A pollster like Frank Lutz will come along and purposefully misinterpret ANY statement I make to support the conclusion he wants to show. "I do not support Speed Cameras of any kind" will be interpreted by Frank Lutz with his twisting of facts and interpretation of my statement to go on record as "I fully support Speed Cameras of Every Kind".

    Wanna know why I am an Atheist? Try going to a Catholic School when you are five years old having the same name as the Son of Satan.

    Thats all it took for me to recognize that the "Love" that is purportedly demanded by practically every religion is nothing but an excuse to Hate. At the time, I wasnt catholic. I was five. And I was still able to recognize even at that age that Religion is validation for Hate hiding behind the guise of Love. As I grew older, I started to see deeper into this pattern of Hate from Religions. It has nothing to do with God. It has everything to do with providing many people (not singling anyone out here) an excuse to commit the most heinous and immoral acts one can imagine and use Frank Lutz fact twisting logic to turn those immoral actions into falsely validated and falsely moral conclusions. With less verbal diahhrea, religion is abused by many people to hide their own guilt from themselves and others of same / simliar faiths. Conclusion at the time was "although Jesus loves me, Im going to Hell because everyone else told me I am going to Hell because of my name, and it doesnt matter if I do good or not because I was unfortunate enough to have the same name as the Son of Satan." It doesnt matter if that is even where my name came from. It came from a Preist, but that still wasnt good enough to satisfy the intense desire of people to hate me. I didnt push religion away at first, it pushed me away. That lead me to start thinking if they hate me although not having a valid reason to hate me, what other things are they telling me that are also complete bull$#@!? I concluded they did not really expect me to submit to God, but to submit to their Church. They did not want me to learn, they wanted me to submit to someone else always having more intellectual authority over me than even I have over myself. This helped me to recognize the practice of Religion as a form of Control where men controlled other men, and I refused to submit to anyone ever since. To this day, my Name continues to be a black stain on every first impression I make, and people still wonder why I introduce myself as Bob to anyone I dont know or care to know. My final conclusions about religion is that I am better off completely avoiding every single one of them at all costs out of the knowledge that Religion will only teach me to hide my own immoral behavior from myself teaching me that the word Love only carries the definition of Hate. All of this has forced me to reject the stupidity of those that profess Hate as Love and forced me to decide for myself what is Right and Wrong. And I think I do a much better job of deciding my own morality than even dare to allow it to be influenced by God or Religions.
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by eduardo89 View Post
    By what standard are you good?
    By what standards are you but your own?

    Oh, guess what. Govt will consider neither one of us to ever be "good" because we are both nothing more than Mundanes in their eyes. Good and Bad depends greatly on who you ask.
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    Twisting facts to support a desired conclusion is just as frequenty enacted by Politicians, Pollsters, and Marketers. Thus, when asked do you believe in God and a person says "No but I still believe I am a good person", the interpreter will interpret this as the person believing in god. Big problem is that it will go on record as such, and purposefully misrepresents the person who flat out said they do not believe in god.

    I do believe that Speed Cams are also immoral. A pollster like Frank Lutz will come along and purposefully misinterpret ANY statement I make to support the conclusion he wants to show. "I do not support Speed Cameras of any kind" will be interpreted by Frank Lutz with his twisting of facts and interpretation of my statement to go on record as "I fully support Speed Cameras of Every Kind".

    Wanna know why I am an Atheist? Try going to a Catholic School when you are five years old having the same name as the Son of Satan.

    Thats all it took for me to recognize that the "Love" that is purportedly demanded by practically every religion is nothing but an excuse to Hate. At the time, I wasnt catholic. I was five. And I was still able to recognize even at that age that Religion is validation for Hate hiding behind the guise of Love. As I grew older, I started to see deeper into this pattern of Hate from Religions. It has nothing to do with God. It has everything to do with providing many people (not singling anyone out here) an excuse to commit the most heinous and immoral acts one can imagine and use Frank Lutz fact twisting logic to turn those immoral actions into falsely validated and falsely moral conclusions. With less verbal diahhrea, religion is abused by many people to hide their own guilt from themselves and others of same / simliar faiths. Conclusion at the time was "although Jesus loves me, Im going to Hell because everyone else told me I am going to Hell because of my name, and it doesnt matter if I do good or not because I was unfortunate enough to have the same name as the Son of Satan." It doesnt matter if that is even where my name came from. It came from a Preist, but that still wasnt good enough to satisfy the intense desire of people to hate me. I didnt push religion away at first, it pushed me away. That lead me to start thinking if they hate me although not having a valid reason to hate me, what other things are they telling me that are also complete bull$#@!? I concluded they did not really expect me to submit to God, but to submit to their Church. They did not want me to learn, they wanted me to submit to someone else always having more intellectual authority over me than even I have over myself. This helped me to recognize the practice of Religion as a form of Control where men controlled other men, and I refused to submit to anyone ever since. To this day, my Name continues to be a black stain on every first impression I make, and people still wonder why I introduce myself as Bob to anyone I dont know or care to know. My final conclusions about religion is that I am better off completely avoiding every single one of them at all costs out of the knowledge that Religion will only teach me to hide my own immoral behavior from myself teaching me that the word Love only carries the definition of Hate. All of this has forced me to reject the stupidity of those that profess Hate as Love and forced me to decide for myself what is Right and Wrong. And I think I do a much better job of deciding my own morality than even dare to allow it to be influenced by God or Religions.
    I don't get what any of that has to do with what I said.

    But for moral right and wrong actually to be right and wrong, they can't be things one just makes up. There must be a moral law that transcends us. If not, then there's no such thing as moral right and wrong.

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    By what standards are you but your own?
    I don't claim to be good. I can never measure up to the one man who was truly good.

    But if good is purely subjective, and there is no objective morality, then morality does not exist at all. There is not good or bad, there is no right or wrong.

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    Twisting facts to support a desired conclusion is just as frequenty enacted by Politicians, Pollsters, and Marketers. Thus, when asked do you believe in God and a person says "No but I still believe I am a good person", the interpreter will interpret this as the person believing in god. Big problem is that it will go on record as such, and purposefully misrepresents the person who flat out said they do not believe in god.

    I do believe that Speed Cams are also immoral. A pollster like Frank Lutz will come along and purposefully misinterpret ANY statement I make to support the conclusion he wants to show. "I do not support Speed Cameras of any kind" will be interpreted by Frank Lutz with his twisting of facts and interpretation of my statement to go on record as "I fully support Speed Cameras of Every Kind".

    Wanna know why I am an Atheist? Try going to a Catholic School when you are five years old having the same name as the Son of Satan.

    Thats all it took for me to recognize that the "Love" that is purportedly demanded by practically every religion is nothing but an excuse to Hate. At the time, I wasnt catholic. I was five. And I was still able to recognize even at that age that Religion is validation for Hate hiding behind the guise of Love. As I grew older, I started to see deeper into this pattern of Hate from Religions. It has nothing to do with God. It has everything to do with providing many people (not singling anyone out here) an excuse to commit the most heinous and immoral acts one can imagine and use Frank Lutz fact twisting logic to turn those immoral actions into falsely validated and falsely moral conclusions. With less verbal diahhrea, religion is abused by many people to hide their own guilt from themselves and others of same / simliar faiths. Conclusion at the time was "although Jesus loves me, Im going to Hell because everyone else told me I am going to Hell because of my name, and it doesnt matter if I do good or not because I was unfortunate enough to have the same name as the Son of Satan." It doesnt matter if that is even where my name came from. It came from a Preist, but that still wasnt good enough to satisfy the intense desire of people to hate me. I didnt push religion away at first, it pushed me away. That lead me to start thinking if they hate me although not having a valid reason to hate me, what other things are they telling me that are also complete bull$#@!? I concluded they did not really expect me to submit to God, but to submit to their Church. They did not want me to learn, they wanted me to submit to someone else always having more intellectual authority over me than even I have over myself. This helped me to recognize the practice of Religion as a form of Control where men controlled other men, and I refused to submit to anyone ever since. To this day, my Name continues to be a black stain on every first impression I make, and people still wonder why I introduce myself as Bob to anyone I dont know or care to know. My final conclusions about religion is that I am better off completely avoiding every single one of them at all costs out of the knowledge that Religion will only teach me to hide my own immoral behavior from myself teaching me that the word Love only carries the definition of Hate. All of this has forced me to reject the stupidity of those that profess Hate as Love and forced me to decide for myself what is Right and Wrong. And I think I do a much better job of deciding my own morality than even dare to allow it to be influenced by God or Religions.

    Im sorry you allowed the cruelty and unfair perception by others to destroy your zeal to know God.Trust me though ,they will be judged harshly by God for there injustice.

    Matthew 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
    7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

    This is why your faith can not be based on the example of men but on the words in the Bible.Reject those if you will but don't hold a fallen man as completely responsible for your lost faith.Many in the Church are just as lost as a depraved man,maybe even more so,because atleast the depraved man openly displays his darkness when the light is shined on it but many of the fallen in the church will hide behind the illusion that attendance at church and being a decent person will get them too heaven and therefor they will never seek to change.

    Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
    21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by topic title
    I don't believe in Jesus Christ
    I really don't want to engage in this topic but I just stopped by to say

    JESUS BELIEVES IN YOU.
    and HE LOVES YOU.


    That is all.

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by cajuncocoa View Post
    I really don't want to engage in this topic but I just stopped by to say

    JESUS BELIEVES IN YOU.
    and HE LOVES YOU.


    That is all.
    Saying that to an Atheist doesnt help them feel any less hated.
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    Saying that to an Atheist doesnt help them feel any less hated.
    Why would you think He (Jesus) or Christians hate you? I certainly don't and Jesus most certainly doesn't.

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by eduardo89 View Post
    Why would you think He (Jesus) or Christians hate you? I certainly don't and Jesus most certainly doesn't.
    Oh come on now. Many (if not most) Christians do hate atheists. It's a risk to be one living in the bible belt. Blasphemy and heresy are concepts many of the faithful cling to so much that they have never questioned their faith at all and anyone that does risks being disassociated with. It's a real thing.

    Several christian sects routinely knock on my door to spread the "good news" yearly. If I were to try such a tactic with my beliefs, I'd be risking physical harm to myself.



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    Saying that to an Atheist doesnt help them feel any less hated.
    "I like your Christ, but I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are nothing like your Christ." ~Gandhi

    If a self-identified "Christian" made you feel hated, you were dealing with someone who simply attends a church of some sort-not a Christian. The Christian endeavors to be Christ-like, which requires empathy and love for his fellow men.

    ETA: take note of Yeshua's two-fold commandment on love-love God with all your heart, mind and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. (See Matthew 22)
    Last edited by heavenlyboy34; 08-16-2013 at 12:08 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Schifference View Post
    I believe in righteousness. I believe in honesty. I willfully admit that I do not believe in god. I believe that a man named Jesus was born & lived on earth some 2k years ago but was no god. I believe that one day I will die and my life will end. No afterlife. No miracles. No divine interventions. Here today gone tomorrow. I believe there is spirituality without god. Meditation is good. I have faith in myself and people I trust.
    How is the belief that there is no God any different than belief that there is a God? Both beliefs require faith because nobody is able to prove them. Wouldn't it be more honest to say that you don't know whether there is a God, afterlife, etc?
    "Sorry, fellows, the rebellion is off. We couldn't get a rebellion permit."

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by torchbearer View Post
    Maybe he believe in jesus, but not the christ.
    he didn't fit the prophecy of daniel.
    This is the argument accepted by many first century Jews who rejected Yeshua. It's not an entirely unreasonable view. But it is important to consider the context-the "prophets" in the OT were not reading the future ala Edgar Cacey. They were observing trends and making predictions based upon observations-basically the Gerald Celentes of the day. They were expecting the Messiah to be a mighty figure who would overcome Israel's enemies and so on-not someone who would be tried and crucified. So Isiah was wrong. All we can do is /shrug.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by eduardo89 View Post
    An atheist may be capable of acting morally, but they will never know why they are acting morally or why that action is moral.
    Two of the most moral guys I have ever known are not believers, they did both though grow up in homes where an outstanding example of hard work , honesty prevailed, so , I dunno .

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by fr33 View Post
    Oh come on now. Many (if not most) Christians do hate atheists. It's a risk to be one living in the bible belt. Blasphemy and heresy are concepts many of the faithful cling to so much that they have never questioned their faith at all and anyone that does risks being disassociated with. It's a real thing.

    Several christian sects routinely knock on my door to spread the "good news" yearly. If I were to try such a tactic with my beliefs, I'd be risking physical harm to myself.
    Well , hell ,nobody lives next to me, or on Sun afternoon I would knock, see if they have any beer ,no need to discuss beliefs

  19. #46
    I believe in Christ, I know Fr & Damian do not , I am fine with that , they are welcome at my place , I am not the thought police and at least I know they are not commies , lol

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    I believe in Christ, I know Fr & Damian do not , I am fine with that , they are welcome at my place , I am not the thought police and at least I know they are not commies , lol
    This is what a true Christian does... we are spiritual... we accept others as others accept us
    Indianensis Universitatis Alumnus

  21. #48
    How is the belief that there is no God any different than belief that there is a God? Both beliefs require faith because nobody is able to prove them. Wouldn't it be more honest to say that you don't know whether there is a God, afterlife, etc?
    (general very long winded reply not directed at anyone specificaly, but replying to the question)

    I find that Science provides clear theories based on reasonble evidence for conclusions. I'll avoid Evolution as it will stir up too much contraversy. So I'll run with something that both sides will (well, should) agree on. Flat Earth. Galileo was labeled a Heretic by the Church for claiming otherwise. At the time, neither had the ability to prove the Earth was either flat or round one way or the other. Galileo concluded it was round by Mathematics and understanding the world around him. However, some of the ways we think have changed. I know the whole Galileo thing is in dispute, but its not the point. Point is there WAS a time when people genuinely believed the world was flat and rejected any claims of evidence to the contrary. Do anything against the Church, regardless if it was correct or not could easily get one sentenced to death. Murder wasnt the only way to achieve ending someones life, often all it took was to ostracize the individual. So to ostracize someone (depending on the time frame and conditions) could be just as much of a death sentence as beheading or other forms of execution. But this is all semi off topic. Point is that both sides now understand the world to be round by understanding the nature of what exists around us, and these conclusions are supported by the math and what ever other evidence we need to see that the world is round.

    However, "Flat Earthers" still exist, and refute any and all evidence to the contrary. They dismiss any sort of logic or proof that is in contradiction with their system of beliefs. The result is that the only facts that they acknowledge are the facts that they pick and choose that support their conclusion. This is what I call "Twisting The Facts To Support A Predetermined Conclusion". This is absolutely no different than the Govt running studies that all Freedom leads to Terrorism. This is the belief of the Govt. And our Govt fails to recognize itself as its own worst enemy. Govt will call for an ever increasing Inquisition on Freedom because it sees what it wants to see and fails time and again to recognize that Govt itself is the greatest threat to Freedom. We could talk about specifics, but damn near every thread on this entire forum is based on how Govt has corrupted its purpose and devolved into something absolutely horrifying. I dont think that any of us will disagree too much on that.

    We all should be able to recognize the abuses of our Govt as we see obvious evidence every single day. And there are still so many people out there who are what we both will still agree on "asleep". Those people choose to not see that a Cop shooting a 95 year old WWII Vet in a Hospital Bed for refusing a treatment that would have left the Vet on life support for the rest of his life. They choose to believe "Dancin with the Stars", "Big Brother", and "Jersey Shore" are an accurate representation of real life. They can even be arrested, charged, convicted, and will STILL refuse to see the evidence that their Govt is not there to protect them. The truth that Govt is there to Enslave them will continue to not be acknowledged because they simply refuse to see it. They do not understand that they can not be held by prison bars once the prison system is recognized for what it truly is. They will continue to believe the Federal Reserve Bank is a part of the US Govt. They will refuse to acknowledge that the OWNERS of the Federal Reserve Bank are in fact the six biggest banks despite it being printed on paper. They will refuse to think that the Federal Reserve Bank is nothing more than what the US Treasury is supposed to be, although the Federal Reserve Bank has it own $#@!ing president: Ben Bernanke. They think that School Boards have Presidents too. Oh, and the Education System is just fine. There is no Enstupidation of people although they themselves are stupid. They can not look in the mirror and see that it is not that they do not understand the question as the cause for their stupidity, but the fact that they do not even bother to ask to question. Real quick, that statement isnt calling anyone religious an idiot. Im calling people that genuinely support the actions of our Govt idiots.

    We question the world around us. This is human nature. When we observe something, the way our minds work need to find a Cause and Effect for that observation. If we are unable to find an actual cause for something, we turn to superstition. It is human nature to find cause and effect in places where there is no corrolation. Black Cats do not cause bad luck. Neither does Friday the 13th, walking under ladders, knocking on wood, breaking a mirror, and stepping on a crack will not break your mothers back. Most of us dont believe in these superstitions any longer, although some of them have found to have come to the right conclusion but based on the wrong logic. Chicken soup for a cold is a good example. It started as a superstition, but there is science to support it.

    And this for me is where religion fails completely. The lack of proof of God is not evidence of a gods existence. That to me is the worst possible science that one can possibly practice. If one does believe the lack of proof of got not existing to be proof of Gods existence, it is a conclusion that I think leads to a long chain of bad data. This way of thinking, for me, is that whole foot in the door process. Same thing as a Cop demanding to be let into your home. Once he is in, he can arrest you for what ever he finds or considers to be criminal. The way of thinking isnt much different. Once one idea has been planted, it is difficult to get out of your head. Pretty standard psychology. There are people who are such good manipulators that they could probably get you damn near butt naked in public. They wouldnt accomlish this by just walking up to you and asking you to get naked, they give you some sort of reasoning, then get you to take off your clothes little by little and each step of the way revalidating the reason for you to do so. Sales is heavily based on the "Foot in the door" methodology. But getting back on point, the way of thinking about no proof of god not existing I think is the foot in the door which is followed by circular logic, where a desired outcome being achieved by dismissing any proof, theories, evidence or anything that is not supporting of the desired outcome. God exists because it says so in the bible, again, to me, is circular thinking. It is also self serving and falsely self validating. To me, a non believer, this would be no different than a child telling me that Santa Claus is real because it says so in this book about Santa Claus. It still doesnt make Santa Claus any more real to me than god. A child could also argue to me to prove that Santa Claus doesnt exist. As adults and parents we understand that we choose to create false evidence of Santa Claus by putting presents under a tree labeled "From Santa". I could continue to argue with the same child that Santa does not exist but I will always lose in the mind of the child because my inability to provide proof that Santa does not exist is more than enough proof to the child that Santa does exist. It isnt an argument I actually want to win but eventually, kids figure it out for themselves. Not because we tell them that Santa doesnt exist, but because they accept the logic that we were the ones that put their presents under the tree, we were the ones that drank the cookies an milk. Well, pour it down the drain or give it to the cat, Im lactose intolerant.

    Both sides here could easily go back and forth on the entire point of god exists because there is no proof that he doesnt (to me, again this is my personal belief, bad science) and god doesnt exist because there is no evidence to support that he does that science can not explain. And others will go back and forth on this for who knows how long. Hey maybe not even too much longer until the elephant in the room decides that we have both outlived our usefulness and presses "the button". But either way, try debating with a Flat Earther and get them to accept evidence that is contrary to their system of beliefs. Try arguing with a Cop that he does not have power granted to him to do what ever the $#@! he wants when he wants because he is a Cop. Try arguing with a child that Santa doesnt exist. On these particular points, both sides should be able to agree that the evidence is so overwhelming that the same objective conclusion should pretty much be drawn univerally. But again, we should all be able to agree that until the Evidence is accepted, that the other party will not draw the same conclusion. I will not accept that no proof that god does not exist as scientific evidence that god does exist. Nothing personal against anyone, but like I said originally, this is where the logic of religion completely fails, for me.

    I know I am not going to change your way of thinking either. It isnt my intent. I have no desire to make anyone here change their faith or lack thereof. What I did want to express is our similarities. Our ways of thinking are not that different. We both do the "foot in the door" way of thinking, and reject ideas that do not support our beliefs. Our minds work similarly. We can both understand how someone can draw a false conclusion and understand how to not fall into the same trap. When we are cut, we both will bleed. But that being a physical trait and I have made an effort to focus on the mental similarities. Sure we have our differences too. Most of which we dont dispute. I cant choose to not be lactose intolerant. I cant choose to not be allergic to grass. I cant choose to be something physically different than what I am. Neither can you. But we dont ostracize each other for gluten or shellfish allergies or for being lactose intolerant. On topics like those, we both just acknowledge those differences and keep going. I'll make sure not to give so and so any sugar because they are type 1 diabetic, just as the rest of us will too.

    Then we finally get to Religion and how it has failed me on every level. As I stated in an earlier post, I was ostracized in a Catholic School because my name is immediately associated with the Son of Satan. I appreciate the sympathy for that, but as I stated in that post, I believe the problem is much much worse and started with Love following the definition and application of Hate. Go read that post if you'd like but no point in repeating it. What I didnt explain in that post was how things only get progressively worse because of a Label. Once I started being ostracized, I was ostracized from EVERYTHING. This wasnt just "dont come to church with us because God hates you", this was "get the $#@! out of MY town before we burn your house down and murder your family". I'll admit that if I did not have this horrid name, I probably would be Catholic today. But based on the behavior of the people, I concluded that what Religion taught was self validating hatred for any who are not just like them. Religion rejected me, and I started to believe then and there that Religion is a completely failed way of thinking. Hypocritical. Circular. But mostly, a Power Structure of MAN. A tool of man to exert his will over other men in what ever way those at the top see fit. I believe religion to be a tool of enslavement because of that "foot in the door" way of thinking where the individual is always expected to completely to surrender. I believe that once the idea of total surrender to a specific authority is accepted, other forms of total surrender to the false authority can take place. I believe that if one submits to a god, it isnt much further to get many (not all, hence why you are here on this forum) to submit to the idea and logic of total surrender to the Banks, the Corporations, the Cops, the Corrupt, anyone with a Costume or ANY assumed authority, anyone wearing a Business Suit, flaunting a PhD in Underwater Basket Weaving, or anyone that claims in any way shape or form to be superior to you, total surrender is desired and coerced until many times it happens. This is what I observed and why I reject the logic of Religion.

    But that is not where I feel Religion has completely failed me. Where I feel it has failed me the most is the Refusal of Support. Wanna know why I am such an advocate for Privacy? Being an Atheist is not illegal. It is not immoral. It is not unlawful. Im not a closet Atheist. I dont bother to hide it when asked. But guaranteed that there are some out there who DO wish me as much harm as they can possibly inflict because my belief does not support their self validating way of thinking. I dont do anything wrong, and there are people out there that will intend to do me harm. However, I do not expect that any of them #1 will ever read this, and #2 will ever actually be able to find out who I am. If they do, I am willing to fight to the death to protect myself, having come from an enviornment where getting your ass beaten bloody because of your name I can handle myself. I know I can handle myself in a fight with more than one person at a time. But there will be a point where I know I will be overwhelmed. I know that at that point I will go down, but I will also know that I gave everything I have to continue to stand. So what the $#@! does Privacy and Refusal of Support have to do with ANY of what I just said? I dont go looking for enemies to piss off. I also have enough undamaged prefrontal cortex left to know that sticking my dick in a hornets nest with honey on my balls is a bad idea. People come after me because of something they knew about me. My name. And they drew conclusions about be based on my name. Many still do. And they ostracized me for it. And what if they discovered something else about me that they could also use as a self validating reason to hate me even more than they already do? Things just continue to go downhill from there. Next they will claim that I should not have any Right to Privacy and base their conclusions off of their original false conclusion. The bad chain of logic. All because there was a movie where the Son of Satan had my name. Well, thats Privacy. Then we get Refusal of Support. I stood up for myself. And NOBODY liked that. In fact, they hated it to the point where I was the troublemaker when others would seek me out to give me a daily ration of $#@!. They saw that other students ostracized me and blamed me for giving them a reason to ostracize them because I stood up to them even though their original misconception is what started everything. Not a single one of those mother $#@!ers lifted a finger to help me in that situation. No, I dont want any sympathy for that level of hatred, hell I am completely used to being hated now. And I quit giving a $#@! a long time ago.

    The REAL problems started because so many refused to have anything to do with me for ANY reason. Not just getting stuffed in trashcans on a daily basis, but when I'd ask for help with MATH. When I'd ask for help with a Flat Tire. When I'd need help with a Twisted Ankle. That is what hurts the most. So every time I hear "Jesus loves you", what kind of memories do you think that statement stirs in me? Do you believe that I think that Jesus loves me, or do you think I hear "$#@! you son of satan". You tell me god exists because there is no proof that he doesnt and I hear "I am morally superior to you and $#@! you son of Satan, Jesus doesnt love you, now get out of my town!". When you say "not all Christians follow the path of Christ", what do you think I hear? Do you think I would hear "yeah jesus really loves me! I can feel that love every time Im shoved in a locker"? Or maybe I'd hear "You can solve all your problems with Christians by becoming a devout Catholic, and just giving up and realizing we are always right about everything because we are Christians!" Even when I tried that, it didnt work out so well.

    No. My real beef is that when I hear a Christian coming under attack for being a Christian (usually the Govt in some form) I'll speak out. Most of the people here on this Forum have demonstrated that they hold themselves to a higher set of standards than most people I've met in real life. Im not stuipid either. I know when people just tell me what I know to be what they think I want to hear (that wasnt confusing!) so I know when someone is going to turn right the $#@! around and talk $#@! about my being an Ateheist behind my back. Im pretty confident that most of you wont. Not because I could (if I wanted to) to hold you to talking trash but because you've concluded for yourselves that you need to lead by example. You've accepted the conclusion that you dont like being a douchebag because of how it makes you feel. You hold yourselves accountable for your own actions. So the people on this Forum I hold to a much higher caliber and are not the ones I'd call out for behaving in a manner that was not fair to everyone. I dont believe that all Christians are douchebags, but neither do I believe that being a Christian (or an Atheist for that matter) entitles a person to be a douchebag. So most of the people here on this Forum are excluded from my rant. Most of you have earned my respect. The rest Im not singling out.

    When I come under attack for being an Atheist, my only friends are the Crickets chirping at my back. My experience has taught me quite well that most Christians will turn their back on me in a flat second if they know I am an Atheist because I am an Atheist regardless if Religion has any relevance in a situation or not. I get it. Im less trustworthy than a Muslim. Im less trustworthy than a Politician, and thats pretty $#@!ing low. Im also less trustworthy than a Rapist or a Murderer. I get that so many christians think that I am not even worth saving. That is what hurts more than anything else. That is why I am so defensive. That is why not only do I not believe in Religion, but see it as nothing but hatred followed by excuses of how it is moral for them to harm other human beings supported only by a set of false conclusions. That is why I will not allow anyone to claim ANY form of superiority to me. Most people have more money than me. They are NOT financially superior. Some people will have more information on a specific topic than I do. They are NOT intellectually superior. Some people find that Religion helps them feel good. They are not Spiritually superior (since you are probably Christian, it might be easier for you to think of this as me vs a Buddhist or something other than Christian, not trying to start fights). Why? Because the second that I give in to that Authority is the second that I lose what it means to be me. That is why I will not allow ANYONE including God or Jesus if they even exist to Judge me. I am my own judge. I decide for myself what is Right and Wrong. I can be forced. But it will not be by my will that I submit. To me, submission is slavery. And Slavery is so much more than just the ownership of another human being. We are all debt slaves. We are military slaves. We are work slaves. We are intellectual slaves as well (save that for another topic but the premise is Information is held hostage and you have to pay for it). We can be Sex slaves (yeah, sometimes that can be fun, but there are people out there who really do suffer this form of slavery). And for me to submit to a Pastor or a Preist is nothing short of Spiritual Slavery. Easy one for me. No god so any words from a Pastor or Preist holds no weight with me. Neither do threats that I'll burn in hell unless I do as such and such a Preist / Pastor / whatever demands. $#@! em. I dont answer to them. If there is a God, I'll take it up with him when / if I meet him. And no, that statement does not make me not an atheist. Blah, off topic again. You also have Emotional Slaves. This is what school teaches in combination with many of the other forms of slavery. Intellectual Slaves who become emotionally dependant on the System for their rewards is a good way of describing Public Education. I could go off on this all day, but to sum it up, I recognize submission and slavery for what it is: a method of Control.

    No, Im not trying to start a fight here. Just how I feel about religion. I $#@!ing hate it and reject it. I see nothing but problems result from Religion. Again, this is what I feel, and not trying to start any fights. Why? Because I believe you are not morally superior to me. Guess what else. I dont believe I am morally superior to you as this is not a competition. It is a difference. Hence the whole Lactose Intolerant bit. Religion has done nothing but caused me pain in my life. If you feel like it does some good for you, then go for it. $#@!. I'll even man-up and defend your right to choose for yourself and allow you to make decisions that only you can decide yourself for yourself. Will you man-up and defend my right to be an Atheist when I come under attack? We should both be able to agree on a great many things. There are also many things we wont agree on, so I wont bother trying to change your mind, so please dont try to change mine by telling me that Jesus loves me or any of that which Ive already covered. Is this difference in religion going to divide us, or are we going to use those differences as our strength? Are you going to waste your time arguing with Atheists (I dont know how many times I misspell that :P), or are you going to realize that while you are arguing with Athiests that we are BOTH under attack? We have much bigger problems than our differences that we can pretty much agree to disagree on.

    Imagine for a second that the Govt gets everything that it wants. Do you think for a split second that you will be allowed to practice your faith in a Govt of your Worst Nightmare? Do you think that maybe my beliefs (well, lack there of) will also be under attack? Damned if you do, damned if you dont. Guess what. Its coming. Whether either of us likes it or not. For the most part, it is already here. And do you have enough strength to let an Atheist stand at your side when push comes to shove, or do you think you will be better going it alone? Our Govt is so $#@!ing bat$#@! crazy that if there is a Heaven or Hell, they'd do everything in their power to wreck both by regulating them too! We know Govt is just a tool of the Banksters and Corporations and Cops are Armed Tax Collectors. We know who runs the show on this planet. Do you think these criminally insane in a genius kind of way sociopaths would attempt to do anything short of declaring a War on Heaven? Still think you are safe in Heaven? Allow just one Bankster or Politician in there and they will find a way to $#@! it up for everyone. Still want to tell that Atheist that was willing to stand by your side in defense of Liberty and Freedom FOR ALL to go piss up a rope? Did anyone but the NSA / TSA / DARPA bother to read all this?

    I dont normally come to the Religion Forum, and this will probably be my last post here in the Religion Forum for a while so go ahead and get it out of your system and bag on be for beign an Atheist since I wont read it and just be over in General Politics anyway.
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    I don't get what any of that has to do with what I said.

    But for moral right and wrong actually to be right and wrong, they can't be things one just makes up. There must be a moral law that transcends us. If not, then there's no such thing as moral right and wrong.
    Morality is Subjective because there is an opinion of Right and Wrong. An example of Objectivity would be a Glass on a Table. Nothing good or bad either way about it, it just is what it is. The reason that we have Courts is because people have a very wide range of opinions on what is Right and Wrong.

    So what does what I said have to do with what you said? In short, everyone is going to claim my opinion to be Wrong. So I quit letting other people decide what is Right and Wrong for me and decide for myself. Guess what. Im much better off for it, excluding the rest of the bull$#@! ways people get back at me.
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by eduardo89 View Post
    An atheist may be capable of acting morally, but they will never know why they are acting morally or why that action is moral.
    No they can't. The natural man cannot in any way submit to the law of God. Roman Catholic theology is not Biblical.

  25. #51
    Many questions atheists are asking about morality in this thread are answered in this one:

    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...rmine-Morality

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    Saying that to an Atheist doesnt help them feel any less hated.
    A lot of people feel hated by someone. Every kid got made fun of in school. These aren't the kinds of things you can avoid by not being an atheist or not being named Damian.

  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    Morality is Subjective because there is an opinion of Right and Wrong.
    If that's true, then it's not morality at all.

    Everything we innately understand about morality disagrees with that. Whenever we accuse anyone of anything and expect the accusation to mean anything, whenever we apologize for something we did, whenever we give excuses that we expect to mitigate some wrong we appeared to do, whenever we suppose that there is even a theoretical possibility for a just outcome in response to anything wrong, we show that what we mean by morality is something objective, something we can't just avoid by choosing to believe otherwise.

    Either we are deceived, and this moral law that we take for granted as something as foundational to our minds as the laws of logic doesn't really exist, in which case none of us could ever really be moral or immoral, or else it does exist and is independent of our opinions.

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    I don't get what any of that has to do with what I said.

    But for moral right and wrong actually to be right and wrong, they can't be things one just makes up. There must be a moral law that transcends us. If not, then there's no such thing as moral right and wrong.
    "There are life defining preconceptions we bring to our relationships with the world. We could listen to our inner voice to guide us toward true moral behavior or blindly follow the dictates of dogmatic moralism. The first is a living expression of who we are at a deeper level of our being while the other is merely a set of sterile rules we adhere to for no reason other than not having investigated the matter for ourselves. Mere moralism makes our morality circumstance dependent. It is kind of moral materialism where we attempt to solidify and mentally circumscribe every natural expression of our deeper being. Such defined, stagnant moralism becomes a selective affair where we choose when to use it and to whom it should be directed.

    However if we were to follow our intuitive insight and listen to our inner sense of reasonableness and human - heartedness, the practice of morality becomes consistent and congruent with the true spirit of moral behavior which is more even handed, unforced and natural in response. It is not only unforced but also profoundly un-self-conscious. Ultimately it becomes clear to us that morality is not something about which we have any choice at all.True morality is simply a natural reflection of who we are when we begin to wake into the well of our own intelligent and self-nurturing inner being." Moller de la Rouviere

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by fr33 View Post
    I don't believe the stories about Jesus anymore than I believe those about Paul Bunyan. Between the two I find Paul Bunyan's story to be more inspiring.

    An omnipresent and omnipotent being that creates some sort of sick game in which most of his creations will never be informed about him during their life, is an $#@!. If the fables were true, then he created his own sick game in which we are the pawns. Then a man appears and says he has the ability to absolve wrong-doing regardless of whether the victims of crime receives justice.
    It's a documented fact that Jesus lived on this earth 2,000 years ago. It's documented in more than just the Bible. Now, you can say that you believe that Jesus was just a "teacher" and that he wasn't the son of God and wasn't resurrected, but to say that Jesus never even existed is just factually inaccurate.

  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    It's a documented fact that Jesus lived on this earth 2,000 years ago. It's documented in more than just the Bible. Now, you can say that you believe that Jesus was just a "teacher" and that he wasn't the son of God and wasn't resurrected, but to say that Jesus never even existed is just factually inaccurate.
    If that were so he'd be a liar or a lunatic because Jesus certainly claimed to be God.
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading



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  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Schifference View Post
    "There are life defining preconceptions we bring to our relationships with the world. We could listen to our inner voice to guide us toward true moral behavior or blindly follow the dictates of dogmatic moralism. The first is a living expression of who we are at a deeper level of our being while the other is merely a set of sterile rules we adhere to for no reason other than not having investigated the matter for ourselves. Mere moralism makes our morality circumstance dependent. It is kind of moral materialism where we attempt to solidify and mentally circumscribe every natural expression of our deeper being. Such defined, stagnant moralism becomes a selective affair where we choose when to use it and to whom it should be directed.

    However if we were to follow our intuitive insight and listen to our inner sense of reasonableness and human - heartedness, the practice of morality becomes consistent and congruent with the true spirit of moral behavior which is more even handed, unforced and natural in response. It is not only unforced but also profoundly un-self-conscious. Ultimately it becomes clear to us that morality is not something about which we have any choice at all.True morality is simply a natural reflection of who we are when we begin to wake into the well of our own intelligent and self-nurturing inner being." Moller de la Rouviere
    The question is, is this inner voice concerning morality telling us the truth? Do these absolute transcendent moral laws to which your inner voice wants to appeal actually exist or not?

    If it's wrong, then we're back to morality not really existing. All we would have is the universal false belief in morality.

    But if it's right, then morality really does exist, in which case atheism would be false.

    Of course you can be an atheist and believe in morality. In fact, I don't think it's possible not to believe in morality even if you are an atheist. But that situation only puts you in a position of having to be wrong about one of those two beliefs. Either God and transcendent absolute moral laws do not exist, in which case you have a false belief in transcendent absolute moral laws. Or else God and transcendent absolute moral laws do exist, in which case your atheism is a false belief.
    Last edited by erowe1; 02-20-2014 at 10:10 AM.

  33. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by cajuncocoa View Post
    I really don't want to engage in this topic but I just stopped by to say

    JESUS BELIEVES IN YOU.
    and HE LOVES YOU.


    That is all.
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    Saying that to an Atheist doesnt help them feel any less hated.
    Allow yourself to believe it.

    It's true.

    That you don't "feel any less hated" doesn't make it so (that you're hated).

    You are not.

    Jesus loves you.

    And as a Christian, I love you too.

  34. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    If that were so he'd be a liar or a lunatic because Jesus certainly claimed to be God.
    Yeah, that's true. But I'm just saying that it seems to be a documented fact that Jesus lived on the earth 2,000 years ago.

  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by willwash View Post
    I'd like to direct you to the thinking of Thomas Jefferson. He identified many of the corruptions of organized religion that you've identified and repudiated them all. His thinking led him down a purely rational path, and indeed he ended up rejecting much of Christian dogma on the basis of his rational thinking...he even parsed the bible to remove what he saw as irrational dogma. This being said, he still believed in the moral teachings of Jesus and believed this to be the only true basis of what is Christian. Thus he still considered himself a Christian.
    I agree with my man TJ.
    What say you.
    Lord, Liar, or Lunatic.

    “I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.” - CS Lewis
    The wisdom of Swordy:

    On bringing the troops home
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    They are coming home, all the naysayers said they would never leave Syria and then they said they were going to stay in Iraq forever.

    It won't take very long to get them home but it won't be overnight either but Iraq says they can't stay and they are coming home just like Trump said.

    On fighting corruption:
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Trump had to donate the "right way" and hang out with the "right people" in order to do business in NYC and Hollyweird and in order to investigate and expose them.
    Fascism Defined

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