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Thread: Saylorsburg PA, 3 DEAD - Town Hall Meeting

  1. #1

    Saylorsburg PA, 3 DEAD - Town Hall Meeting

    This Shack:


    "Looks like I'm gonna be homeless because I have nowhere to go," Newell said

    http://www.kltv.com/story/23052553/g...wnhall-meeting

    Gunman kills 3 at Pennsylvania town hall meeting

    Posted: Aug 05, 2013 9:47 PM EDT Updated: Aug 06, 2013 12:44 AM EDT By RNN Staff - email





    A gunman killed three during a Board of Supervisors meeting in eastern Pennsylvania Monday. (Source: KYW/CNN)



    SAYLORSBURG, PA (RNN) - Police say at least three people were killed in a shooting that took place during a Board of Supervisors meeting in Pennsylvania.


    The shooting broke out shortly after 7:30 p.m. EST Monday at the Ross Township building in Saylorsburg, PA, about 75 miles north of Philadelphia.


    Two victims died at the scene. The alleged gunman has been identified as Rockne Newell, and police say "he had an ongoing dispute with the township over his property," but said the motive for the shooting was still under investigation.


    Police estimate 15-18 people were in the meeting room when he allegedly began firing first through the windows before entering the building.


    Chris Reber, a reporter for the Pocono Record, was at the meeting and described the situation.


    "All I saw was the holes go through the hall. I saw smoke and plaster flying out, blowing out through the walls," he wrote.


    After the first round of shooting, the gunman went to his car to get another weapon. However, when he came back into the building, he was tackled by Bernie Kozen, a local official, who took the gun away and allegedly shot the shooter.


    "Bernie bearhugged him and took him down.


    He shot (the shooter) with his own gun,"

    Reber wrote.


    The suspected gunman is in custody.


    http://www.poconorecord.com/apps/pbc...NEWS/130809867
    August 05, 2013


    This first-person account of Monday night's shooting is from Pocono Record reporter Chris Reber as told to his editors, Marta Gouger and Chris Mele. It was written by Mele.
    It was my first Ross Township board meeting. I had gone earlier Monday to the township hall to check on the agenda.
    The clerk there gave me an earful about how the previous reporter would call the day after the meetings to get caught up, so I decided that, as the new West End reporter, I would show up to Monday's meeting.
    There were about 15 people in the rectangular room seated on padded folding chairs.
    The thing that got my attention: plaster flying out, blowing out through the walls. Witnesses would later tell me they saw pictures exploding away from the walls.
    I heard more than 10 shots.
    It was automatic, like a string of firecrackers. That's what everyone said.



    There were real heroes here.


    People who did not consider their own lives in protecting others.

    I crawled out to a hallway and then got outside. There is nothing in reality you can compare it to. It just was not in reality. All I could think was: It wasn't happening to me.
    I went outside to the parking lot. There was a girl there calling 911. I was taking cover behind a truck, an SUV. I was about 50 yards away.
    The gunman was this guy wearing a blue Hawaiian shirt. I saw him go back out to his car — a silver Impala — and get another gun.
    I saw him get something out of his car.
    I didn't see blood when I left.
    It wasn't real to me until I went back inside and saw people bleeding.


    http://kfor.com/2013/08/05/3-dead-se...-hall-meeting/
    McCool said it was “the quietest township in Monroe County.” “They are never in the newspaper,” McCool said. She said she knew of no controversial issues before the supervisors.
    “They are the only township in Monroe County that hasn’t had a tax increase in many, many years,” she said.

    Multiple after the fact videos:
    http://wnep.com/2013/08/05/officials...-least-2-dead/






    UPDATE (background)


    Ross Township wins 17-year battle to evict 'eyesore' owner


    By Andrew Scott
    Pocono Record Writer
    August 21, 2012



    Rockne Newell has been fighting Ross Township for almost 20 years, refuting the township's view of his Flyte Road property as an "eyesore" filled with "junk."


    Now, Monroe County Court has ruled in the township's favor, ordering Newell to vacate his property within less than a month and clean it up within less than two months. The court order, which Newell received a week ago in the mail, says


    he can never again live on,
    use or occupy the property
    unless he gets occupancy and sewage
    permits
    from the township.



    "Looks like I'm gonna be homeless because I have nowhere to go," Newell said, his voice rising in outrage as he walked among tires, cinderblocks, piles of lumber and other items on his unmown property. "Applying for a sewage permit means I have to get a soil test done, which costs $40,000, which I don't have."

    Claims 'harassment'

    Newell, who's on a property/school tax payment plan with the mortgage paid up, said he lives on Social Security disability payments from a crash injury. He said the township has been harassing him with claims that he has never obtained the proper permits and that he has sewage and "junk" clustered about the property.


    Township officials referred all Pocono Record inquiries to their attorney, John Dunn, for this article, but a 2002 article quotes then-township supervisor Butch Kresge as saying Newell shouldn't be allowed to have "junk" on his property since no one else does.


    "That's funny because, when I moved here, this property was one of only three on the entire road that didn't have what they call 'junk,'" Newell said, though his property now has the largest amount of visibly cluttered items on Flyte Road.


    "I'm a collector from a family of collectors," he said. "I use most of what I collect, like part of a playground slide to pour concrete for cinder blocks and wood to fence my yard from people driving by and throwing beer bottles. This saves me hundreds of dollars. I scrap and sell what I can't use."


    The contention began after Newell bought the secluded, wooded property from the previous owner in 1990. According to court papers, Newell got a building permit from the township to have a storage structure on the property, but then built a dwelling without first getting a zoning permit or certificate of occupancy from the township.


    Newell said the storage structure and dwelling are the same building. He said the township in the beginning never required him to have an additional permit to use the storage structure also as a dwelling.


    "But (in 1995), they took me to court and lied to the judge about how they did tell me I needed another permit," said Newell, who has always represented himself in court.

    "They showed (Magisterial District Judge JoLana Krawitz) the permit application form I filled out and signed," he said. "The word 'only' was written next to the word 'storage' so it read 'storage only.' That 'only' wasn't there when I filled out and signed that form."


    Krawitz ruled in the township's favor, saying Newell could not use the storage structure as a dwelling without a zoning permit or certificate of occupancy. Newell appealed and went before then-county court judge Peter O'Brien.


    "After listening to my side and then taking a look at that permit application form with 'storage only' on it, Judge O'Brien dismissed the case with prejudice," Newell said. "He basically told them to stop harassing me."

    No sewage permit

    Though the 17-year-old case is no longer on file at county court, Dunn remembers O'Brien's ruling a bit differently.


    "What the judge actually ruled was not to proceed any farther with the case unless we could prove Mr. Newell was actually living on the property," Dunn said. "Mr. Newell at the time claimed he wasn't living there, and we were unable to prove otherwise."


    As years passed, Newell collected more items, some of which he stores in several trailers on his property.


    Another issue arose when county sheriff's deputies responded to a complaint about the property in 2009 and found "buckets of fecal matter stored inside and outside of the residence," according to the court order's findings. Newell said he has used buckets for storing paint, carrying water and other things, but never for storing fecal matter.


    As a result of what the sheriff's deputies reportedly found, the township determined Newell was illegally disposing of sewage on his property without having gotten a septic permit to do so. He said he has a composting toilet for any sewage because he cannot afford septic hookup fees, but the township says he needs a permit for that toilet.

    Stream work

    A third issue arose in November, when county resource conservation specialist Victor Motts responded to a complaint about Newell having dredged a stream on his property and installed a four-feet-wide culvert. Motts works for the county Conservation District, which he said takes interest when any construction on private or public property potentially affects waterways.


    Newell had the culvert, supported by two concrete blocks, installed as part of a driveway built over the stream for flooding.

    "My foot bridge had gotten washed out in a flood, so I applied for help with (the Federal Emergency Management Agency), who told me I had to replace that bridge with a culvert driveway so emergency vehicles can get over the stream to access my property," he said. "FEMA gave me $5,000, and I hired a contractor to put in the culvert."


    Motts told Newell and the township that the culvert violates state Department of Environmental Protection regulations. The township said this also violates its stormwater management ordinance.


    "So now, they're telling me to rip out the culvert that FEMA told me to install because I didn't have a permit when I had it put in," Newell said. "First off, FEMA told me I don't need a permit."


    Newell cannot recall exactly who at FEMA told him no permit is needed. Nick Morici, external affairs specialist at FEMA's Region 3 office in Philadelphia, said the agency cannot comment on any cases involving pending court action.


    "Second, I don't have the money to have the culvert removed," he said. "They're talking about the effect it has on the environment. Won't it have a bigger effect if I rip it back out?"


    What led to the July court hearing that has resulted in the current court order is Newell admitting to Motts that he in fact lives on the property, Dunn said. Since the township earlier had been unable to prove this and was thus forced to drop its case, Newell's admission gave the township its most important ammunition against him, Dunn said.


    "This is absolute (b.s.), but there's nothing I can do about it," Newell said, shrugging his shoulders. "They're kicking me off my property. It would be great if I could get some help getting my stuff off the property, because I don't have the money for dumpsters."


    Newell asks anyone who can help him to contact him at 570-856-5518.

    Motive in Town Meeting Shooting: This Shack Police say Rockne Newell had been in long-running fight with township



    By Kate Seamons, Newser Staff


    Posted Aug 6, 2013 6:53 AM CDT






    (Newser) – The gunman in last night's deadly town meeting shooting in Pennsylvania has been IDed by police as Rockne Newell. It's a well-known name to local officials, who the Pocono Record reports have been embroiled in a "long-simmering feud" with Newell over his junk-strewn property for some 18 years. The paper cites its previous articles as background: human feces were found on Newell's land in 2009; he built a "dwelling" on the land without getting the proper permits from the township; railroad ties and trash litter his yard; and township supervisors in February 2012 voted to take legal action against Newell for violating zoning and sewer regulations.
    He was ordered to vacate in August 2012, and had reportedly been living in his car and in vacant buildings since. Newell himself complained to the Record in June, saying, "If I lose this property, I have nowhere else to go. What they're doing to me, what they've been doing to me for so long, it's wrong." The AP adds that Newell told officials the $600 monthly Social Security payments that sustained him couldn't pay to clean his property, which is located just a short drive from the Ross Township municipal meeting where he allegedly opened fire, killing three. Witnesses say Newell emptied his gun before returning to his car to get a second weapon; they say he was ultimately tackled and shot in the leg with his own gun. Less »

    photos at source;

    http://www.newser.com/story/172112/m...his-shack.html
    Last edited by presence; 08-06-2013 at 09:18 AM.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...




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  3. #2
    he had an ongoing dispute with the township over his property
    hmmm...
    "Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one."
    —Charles Mackay

    "god i fucking wanna rip his balls off and offer them to the gods"
    -Anonymous

  4. #3
    //nm
    Last edited by presence; 08-06-2013 at 08:54 AM.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  5. #4
    Gunman kills three at Ross Township meeting

    http://www.poconorecord.com/apps/pbc...NEWS/308060316


    By Chris Reber
    also by Andrew Scott
    Pocono Record Writers
    August 06, 2013
    Three people died Monday night when a gunman opened fire on a Ross Township municipal meeting, indiscriminately shooting into the building, authorities said.

    Eyewitnesses at the scene and state police identified the gunman as Rockne Newell, a self-proclaimed junk collector who has had a long-simmering feud with the township for keeping a junkyard on his property.

    RELATED PHOTO GALLERIES

    More
    Monday night state police were seeking a search warrant from a district judge for Newell's property, according to Trooper First Class Michael Sniscak.

    As of 11 p.m., however, there was a delay in returning to his property, authorities said. Fearful that his property might be booby-trapped, police said that they might bring in bomb-sniffing dogs as a precaution.

    A meeting attendee tackled Newell, who was shot with his own gun, according to witnesses.

    Pocono Record reporter Chris Reber, who was attending a Ross Township meeting for the first time, described hearing at least 10 shots. He described plaster flying out, blowing out through the walls. Witnesses would later tell him they saw pictures exploding away from the wall.

    Resident Betty Broad said, "First we jumped up. Patricia was pushing on me. I was starting to turn to see what was going on when someone took the big round table and protected us. Nothing can prepare you "»"

    Secretary Treasurer Doris Price said, "No one wanted to move. Everyone was hiding."

    Reber, who had escaped the meeting room to take cover behind an SUV in the parking lot, said the gunman emptied his first weapon and that he saw the gunman go to his car to retrieve a second weapon.

    Police said Monday night that Newell had two weapons.

    Newell was outside, firing into the meeting room, where about 15 people had gathered.

    "I had view of Rockne coming in. I saw Bernie (Kozen) struggling with him. Bernie got the gun and shot him in the leg twice," Ross Township Supervisor Tina Drake said.

    West End Park and Open Space Commission Executive Director Bernie Kozen was sitting on the side of the room.

    He described his actions to subdue the shooter: "When he came back in, he didn't see me. I guess he was hellbent on "»"

    His voice trailed off.

    "I was working on Dave Fleetwood and he walked by me into the meeting room, I guess to shoot more people," Kozen said. "That's when I came up behind him and wrestled the gun from him with the help of Mr. Kresh."

    Drake said Kresh helped to hold the shooter down. She said she was behind Solicitor John Dunn, two women and three men.

    Cleoria Campodonico was also at the meeting.

    "I'll never get those images out of my head. Those poor, innocent people," she said. "David Fleetwood pushed me out of the way and got shot twice in the belly."

    Township supervisor Howard Beers' daughter, Alissa Rutt, got a call from her dad.
    He said, "Just listen to what I have to say. No matter what you hear, I'm ok."

    She then called her sister, who was on her way to the scene. Her girlfriends had gotten news alerts on their cell phones. She spotted her dad and was allowed past the barricade. They hugged each other.

    The identities of the victims was not available at 11 p.m. Monroe County Coroner Bob Allen described the fatalities as three men. Two were dead on the scene and one died after being taken by a medical helicopter, Allen said.

    One remained in surgery at 11:30 p.m., according to state police.

    The man identified by witnesses and police as the gunman — Rockne Newell — has had a long-running feud with the township.

    He got a building permit from the township to have a storage structure on the property, but then built a dwelling without first getting a zoning permit or certificate of occupancy from the township.

    Over the years, authorities have responded to Newell's property as a result of neighbor complaints and on one occasion in 2009 found human fecal matter in buckets there, according to previous reports in the Pocono Record. The township determined he was improperly disposing of sewage with no septic system or permit for one.

    In a previous article, Newell said he couldn't afford septic hookup fees.

    "If I lose this property, I have nowhere else to go," Newell told the Pocono Record in June. "What they're doing to me, what they've been doing to me for so long, it's wrong."

    The outbreak of violence in this West End Monroe County community stands in stark contrast to its quiet, rural character. The meeting was winding down at 7:23 p.m. when the shooting broke out.

    Witnesses described a scene of carnage and chaos following the shooting at the Anchorage Road building.

    "There were real heroes here," Reber said. "People who did not consider their own lives in protecting others."

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    I was looking for a "reason" which article did you pull that from?
    It's in your post.
    "The Patriarch"

  7. #6
    From last October.

    https://www.giveforward.com/fundrais...saverocknehome

    I need to clean up & I need a lawyer,I have no place to go and my 2 rescue dogs will be put to sleep because no one else will take them

    Ross township took me to court & the court ruled that I have to vacate my home of 20 years & remove the bridge that FEMA gave me $5000 to put in as well as clean up my land I live on SSI which comes to $600 a month I have no money to clean up & it is insane to make me remove a bridge that FEMA gave the money to put in! I have no place to go I need a Lawyer but have no money!
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    I was looking for a "reason" which article did you pull that from?
    P I think you're losing it I quoted it directly from what you cut and pasted LOL.
    "Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one."
    —Charles Mackay

    "god i fucking wanna rip his balls off and offer them to the gods"
    -Anonymous

  9. #8
    When government pushes people to their limit, it's unsurprising that they push back. Though this would have been more poignant had he defended his property from armed thugs rather than shooting up a room full of unarmed people.
    "Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost."
    ~ President John Q. Adams ~



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Darguth View Post
    When government pushes people to their limit, it's unsurprising that they push back. Though this would have been more poignant had he defended his property from armed thugs rather than shooting up a room full of unarmed people.
    It sounds to me as though this dude used the same exact tactics police do, he waited until all the "suspects" were together and ambushed them.

    I fail to see any benefit of trying to make a stand on his own property, he'd determined who had committed the offences and lacking access to an equitable court of justice he chose to totally avoid dealing with the "Just-Us" system.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    I fail to see any benefit of trying to make a stand on his own property, he'd determined who had committed the offences and lacking access to an equitable court of justice he chose to totally avoid dealing with the "Just-Us" system.
    Because in any event he was a dead man. He was either going to die assaulting people, die defending his property, or rot away in jail. If you get to the point you're contemplating a mass shooting I think you'd realize those are your only options. The state will not let you win and walk away and your chances of "getting away with it" are basically null.

    Personally, if I knew I were to die, I'd be concerned with my legacy and try to turn my death into a positive impact for others. By defending his property against armed thugs he would gain much more public sympathy for his death than he will for having assaulted people.

    Also, it does not appear he did what police do. They come in with overwhelming force with prearranged tactics and recon of their target. By all appearances he just started shooting at a building.

    By defending his own property he could have prepared fortifications, created booby traps, and created tactical plans for defense. Also, any casualties would have been government enforcers and not, perhaps, innocent bystanders.
    "Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost."
    ~ President John Q. Adams ~

  13. #11
    Am reminded of this,, Different details, Same motivation.

    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Am reminded of this,, Different details, Same motivation.

    + rep for a good memory.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Darguth View Post
    When government pushes people to their limit, it's unsurprising that they push back. Though this would have been more poignant had he defended his property from armed thugs rather than shooting up a room full of unarmed people.
    Those people are armed with force of the government.

  16. #14
    OP UPDATED

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Those people are armed with force of the government.
    Well said. It is the people in the room who evicted him and so he targeted the responsible party in his opinion rather than the sheriff's deputies who are serving the papers drafted by the responsible parties who hide behind the guys with guns.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    It sounds to me as though this dude used the same exact tactics police do, he waited until all the "suspects" were together and ambushed them.

    I fail to see any benefit of trying to make a stand on his own property, he'd determined who had committed the offences and lacking access to an equitable court of justice he chose to totally avoid dealing with the "Just-Us" system.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darguth View Post
    Also, it does not appear he did what police do. They come in with overwhelming force with prearranged tactics and recon of their target. By all appearances he just started shooting at a building.

    By defending his own property he could have prepared fortifications, created booby traps, and created tactical plans for defense. Also, any casualties would have been government enforcers and not, perhaps, innocent bystanders.


    Quote Originally Posted by moostraks View Post
    Well said. It is the people in the room who evicted him and so he targeted the responsible party in his opinion rather than the sheriff's deputies who are serving the papers drafted by the responsible parties who hide behind the guys with guns.
    MT has done a much better job than I did....



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  20. #17
    Ballad of Carl Drega
    by Vin Suprynowicz
    http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_no...+of+carl+drega
    Non-violence is the creed of those that maintain a monopoly on force.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Darguth View Post
    Because in any event he was a dead man. He was either going to die assaulting people, die defending his property, or rot away in jail. If you get to the point you're contemplating a mass shooting I think you'd realize those are your only options. The state will not let you win and walk away and your chances of "getting away with it" are basically null.

    Personally, if I knew I were to die, I'd be concerned with my legacy and try to turn my death into a positive impact for others. By defending his property against armed thugs he would gain much more public sympathy for his death than he will for having assaulted people.

    Also, it does not appear he did what police do. They come in with overwhelming force with prearranged tactics and recon of their target. By all appearances he just started shooting at a building.

    By defending his own property he could have prepared fortifications, created booby traps, and created tactical plans for defense. Also, any casualties would have been government enforcers and not, perhaps, innocent bystanders.
    But this would have put him against the police. From reading the article I doubt this man was fighting against the government so he would have little reason to take out his anger on the police. He felt he was under attack from certain people within the local government and he went directly to the source to take out his anger. Now the other members and future members in this community realize if they screw with someone too much there could be blow back.
    Insanity should be defined as trusting the government to solve a problem they caused in the first place. Please do not go insane!

  22. #19
    Blowback.
    "I shall bring justice to Westeros. Every man shall reap what he has sown, from the highest lord to the lowest gutter rat. They have made my kingdom bleed, and I do not forget that."
    -Stannis Baratheon

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Those people are armed with force of the government.
    It was a town hall meeting but that doesn't mean everyone there exercises the force of government. There could have been protesting anarchists there or maybe a pacifist simply trying to inform themselves on local happenings, he didn't know that.

    If he was, as some here seem to purport, attempting to target specific individuals he felt were transgressing against him then he should have actually targeted those specific individuals. He didn't, by the accounts in the articles above. He just was shooting into a room of people, many of whom he likely did not know and which were in no direct way linked to any injustices against him.
    "Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost."
    ~ President John Q. Adams ~

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Darguth View Post
    It was a town hall meeting but that doesn't mean everyone there exercises the force of government. There could have been protesting anarchists there or maybe a pacifist simply trying to inform themselves on local happenings, he didn't know that.

    If he was, as some here seem to purport, attempting to target specific individuals he felt were transgressing against him then he should have actually targeted those specific individuals. He didn't, by the accounts in the articles above. He just was shooting into a room of people, many of whom he likely did not know and which were in no direct way linked to any injustices against him.
    Well they are not (as yet) identifying the targets of his rage.

    I am hoping that he hit those that were responsible for his troubles and not some random bystanders.
    But that is yet unknown.

    Government should rightfully fear the people.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Darguth View Post
    It was a town hall meeting but that doesn't mean everyone there exercises the force of government. There could have been protesting anarchists there or maybe a pacifist simply trying to inform themselves on local happenings, he didn't know that.

    If he was, as some here seem to purport, attempting to target specific individuals he felt were transgressing against him then he should have actually targeted those specific individuals. He didn't, by the accounts in the articles above. He just was shooting into a room of people, many of whom he likely did not know and which were in no direct way linked to any injustices against him.
    The guy that tackled/shot him said that he had walked past him. Sounds like it was targeted after the first several shots.
    Non-violence is the creed of those that maintain a monopoly on force.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by limequat View Post
    The guy that tackled/shot him said that he had walked past him. Sounds like it was targeted after the first several shots.
    He could have walked past him for multiple reasons, this hardly is conclusive proof he had targets in mind. The fact, however, that he started shooting before he was even in the building to me indicates that he was not overly concerned with the safety of bystanders when trying to take out any particular targets, at the very least.

    If this was a justified "preemptive strike" as some here are implying, then for it to be justified one has to do their utmost to not harm innocent bystanders. Not doing so is a similarly egregious violation of the NAP as what the township was doing to him.
    "Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost."
    ~ President John Q. Adams ~

  27. #24
    This happened not far from Fethullah Gulen:


    From his fortess headquarters, located on 28 acres at 1857 Mt. Eaton Road in Saylorsburg, Pennsylvania, Gulen plots the overthrow of secular governments and oversees the spread of education jihad throughout Asia, Europe, and the United States.

    Gulen is surrounded by an army of over 100 Turkish Islamists, who guard him and tend to his needs. The army is comprised of armed militants who wear suits and ties and do not look like traditional Islamists in cloaks and turbans. They follow their hocaefendi's (master lord’s) orders and even refrain from marrying until age 50 per his instructions. When they do marry, their spouses are expected to dress in the Islamic manner, as dictated by Gulen himself.

    The Saylorsburg property consists of a massive chalet surrounded by numerous out buildings, including recreational centers, dormitories, cabins for visiting foreign dignitaries, a helicopter pad, and firing ranges.
    Last edited by presence; 08-06-2013 at 09:54 AM.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...




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  29. #25
    Account Restricted. Admin to review account standing


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    Did he at least kill those that screwed him over?

  30. #26
    The people there turning a blind eye to what the Council was doing to the eccentric junk guy were complicit.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    The people there turning a blind eye to what the Council was doing to the eccentric junk guy were complicit.

    Perhaps but these town "board of supervisor" meetings are usually open to the public.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    Did he at least kill those that screwed him over?
    As yet unknown.. Names (and related history) have not been released.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  33. #29
    I'd be interested in hearing both sides to this story....

  34. #30
    Account Restricted. Admin to review account standing


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    "I'll never get those images out of my head. Those poor, innocent people," she said. "David Fleetwood pushed me out of the way and got shot twice in the belly."
    ROFL. Poor innocent people? They destroyed the guy's life over some minor code violations, when it wasn't like he was enriching uranium on his premises.

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