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It should always be illegal.
It should be illegal with an exception for the life of the mother.
It should be illegal with exceptions for rape, incest, and the life of the mother.
It should be legal, but with some restrictions.
It should be legal with no restrictions.
Last edited by Origanalist; 07-21-2013 at 10:40 PM.
"The Patriarch"
That isn't at all what I was saying. I was explaining part of why I didn't consider the question of "What if the child is my own" until you asked it.
As to why I feel unqualified on deciding legality or illegality, it's because I don't have a uterus and have never been pregnant in this lifetime and never will.
And again, I do think it's killing a person, once the baby becomes a person. I think that happens at the point when the baby becomes aware, i.e. has sentience or conscious awareness. And I don't think people should kill people. I think an abortion is not killing a person when it occurs prior to the point when the clump of cells becomes a person.
But again, I don't feel that I have the right to dictate my beliefs to others on this particular topic because it's a complicated issue. The best I can hope to do is convince others why it's wrong. And if drug prohibition has taught us anything, it's that prohibiting something does not stop people from doing it. The only real solution is to end the desire to do it and I can't do that through laws.
Last edited by WhistlinDave; 07-21-2013 at 10:51 PM.
"Some supporters of the war use their religion to justify the war. Evidently, I’ve been reading from a different Bible." — Ron Paul
“I'm supportive of all voluntary associations and people can call it whatever they want.” ― Ron Paul
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If I was a pregnant women and it was my life versus the life of the baby, I have a good idea I know what I would choose. But just because I can fantasize about it and take a guess doesn't actually mean $#@!. No one does more soul searching and contemplation then those who are actually facing such a terrible choice. It is easy for us to judge what is morally right and wrong, but no one can speak for the experiences of another. We as a Christian society must seek to have a common goal of easing the suffering of one another, showing fairness, justice and mercy (above all, mercy) while not putting more burdens on others. In the Kindgom, there will not need to be such laws, for there it will eternally live in such divinity, but for us on earth, it is the Christian life of self-sacrifice, selfless giving and fidelity to Christ whereby we find true life, not here in this world which is temporary and fading away, but before His everlasting Presence in the Kingdom of Heaven, in the many rooms He has reserved for those who love Him.
To allow young girls to risk imprisonment for aborting a child produced during a rape is tyrannical. The risks of infection, sterilization, and death in young women would exceed those occurring during childbirth.
It is up to the families, the communities, indeed the cities and nations to extol the sanctity of life.
That is why there is economia. Why economia exists.
Last edited by TER; 07-21-2013 at 11:06 PM.
+'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ
People already know my view on this issue.
"One method of destroying a concept is by diluting its meaning. Observe that by ascribing rights to the unborn, i.e., the nonliving, the anti-abortionists obliterate the rights of the living." - Ayn Rand
Inactive
List of Liberty-minded candidates for Congress in 2014
Party: Libertarian (since registration) / Religion: none (Ignostic)
“If while on your way you meet no one your equal or better, steadily continue on your way alone. There is no fellowship with fools.”
― Dhammapada, v. 61
"Asking why there are no Libertarian countries is akin to asking why there are no Atheist Theocracies." - #AncapJackal
The Bastiat Collection · FREE PDF · FREE EPUB · PAPER Frédéric Bastiat (1801-1850)
- "When law and morality are in contradiction to each other, the citizen finds himself in the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense, or of losing his respect for the law."
-- The Law (p. 54)- "Government is that great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
-- Government (p. 99)- "[W]ar is always begun in the interest of the few, and at the expense of the many."
-- Economic Sophisms - Second Series (p. 312)- "There are two principles that can never be reconciled - Liberty and Constraint."
-- Harmonies of Political Economy - Book One (p. 447)· tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito ·
It would prevent the murder of unborn children, no? But my comment was about giving the government an inch and it taking a mile, but I don't expect you to get that. I mean who would ever have thought we would have TSA people in airports molesting children? Or healthcare being forced down our throats? Or having to have rfid chips on our driver's licenses, or black boxes in cars, or being profiled as a possible homegrown terrorist because you support liberty, or being told how much soda you can drink, how much rainwater you can collect, or the NSA monitoring the population, etc etc ad nauseum. Maybe you'll get it when someday we have an ultra liberal in charge of everything who decides it's just easier to sterilize the male population than ban abortions. Not to mention the fact that banning abortion will not prevent abortion. It will just prevent legal abortion. It won't make people make wiser decisions. It won't make people stop having indiscriminate sex. It may make those who wish it to be so be able to sleep better at night knowing they support a pipe dream. The only thing that will stop abortion is 100% effective birth control, or 100% abstinence from sex or possibly chasitity belts or possible men keeping their penises in their trousers. When you figure out how to make that happen then you can say you've found a possible way to prevent abortion. Murder is illegal, doesn't stop murder. Stealing is illegal, doesn't stop stealing. Those are facts...not conjecture.
Last edited by Carlybee; 07-21-2013 at 11:47 PM.
My personal thought is that I'd give up to the 8 week mark for an abortion and then afterwards only mother's life would be an exception. At the point the baby is viable there would be no exception besides early birth.
Libertarians - trying to improve the world through ideas and free markets rather than legislation and prisons.
My view is that the fetus is a human life, but it is also...I think the scientific term would be a "parasite." If a woman owns her body, then she cannot be legally compelled to play host to this parasite we call the fetus.
Therefore, I vote for "legal with no restrictions."
I just want to add that many Orthodox Christians would disagree with me on my vote, and I first of all confess that my opinion on this matter is my own.
My reasoning? Each and every circumstance is different, and much spiritual guidance and love should be shown to all those who suffer through such decisions. Such a strict and severe law as total abolishment might cause greater harm and develop even greater resistance from many in society, fomenting discord and discontent and suspicion and malice. A place not pleasant at all to live in.
Christ showed mercy, we should as well. Our fight to end abortions makes real headway in decreasing the numbers by fighting for attainable goals and praying for the nation to grow morally and righteously. Fighting for an impossible dream is for daydreamers. If we fight, we fight for what is real and attainable in our lifetime and thus make progress, and put our trust in God for the future.
Last edited by TER; 07-22-2013 at 12:02 AM.
+'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ
One great way to start is to STOP federal funding.
+'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ
Just as the libertarian argument is that making drugs illegal does not eliminate drug usage but creates an underground and dangerous economy, likewise making all abortions illegal will not stop abortions from taking place. Our goal is to instill morality through our lives and our communities, starting with our families. If the family is destroyed in society (which it is by the BS on TV and being taught in schools), then no amount of government laws and force will stop the collapse. For the sickness is not the abortion but rather abortions are proof of the sickness which is already spread throughout. This sickness is the immorality and corruption within a nation. The godlessness and emptiness which seeks to destroy. Unless we change the morality of the people, then all our attempts at political change to a more peaceful and Christian society will be for nought. Ron Paul says this, and greater men before him as well.
+'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ
Destruction of the fetus can be wrought by indirect means, consciously or otherwise, rendering any interpretation of laws in that area hopeless and subjective. Instead of doctors, women will make it a point to miscarry, or otherwise damage the fetus beyond viability, and would possess reasonable plausible deniability as to their ultimate intention. Asserting a legal issue over abortion necessitates pregnant women be treated as owned property; either she responsibly carries the child to term as per the current opinion on what responsibly constitutes, or risk prosecution. The road to statist tyranny is paved with noble intentions, and I believe that remains particularly relevant here.
That it's a disgusting and barbaric practice is beyond dispute, but the only way to actually get at the root of the problem is to fix our communities so that this isn't the most appealing option, ever. Legalism solves nothing in this area.
As an aside, I wonder if those that would make abortion illegal would also charge pregnant women engaging in risky/dangerous behavior with manslaughter when they miscarry.
The more frightening part is the large percentage of people who believe abortion should be legal in every situation. That should be sobering for anyone who values the sanctity of life and who wish that abortions would become a thing of the past. We as a movement who preach liberty for every individual have enough work to do within our own community.
+'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ
I have nine children , eleven grandchildren, I find this practice barbaric as it is used as birth control .The Fed govt has no role. I also see what kind of world I live in where so many people feel this is such a good idea that others feel the need to legislate it.People are depraved, the govt is in debt that it cannot pay, the weirdo socialists think using abortion for birth control is ok , but they do not comprehend there will not be enough tax payers soon to pay for this for them.Soon , God may forsake us. Would these people like someone to snip the spinal cord that belongs to them ?
Inactive
List of Liberty-minded candidates for Congress in 2014
Party: Libertarian (since registration) / Religion: none (Ignostic)
“If while on your way you meet no one your equal or better, steadily continue on your way alone. There is no fellowship with fools.”
― Dhammapada, v. 61
"Asking why there are no Libertarian countries is akin to asking why there are no Atheist Theocracies." - #AncapJackal
My opinion isn't exactly represented in this poll or I'm not sure how to best condense it into one of these categories.
I also refuse to associate with either extreme of the "pro-life/choice" (both are misnomers, but that's a debate for different thread.)
Our main stakeholders in this issue are 1) the mother and 2) the unborn person.
I've said (on countless threads) that legislation isn't the answer -- in fact, elective abortion has been going on far before it was legalized. I've also said that this isn't exclusively a societal moral issue like some suggest. Rather, it is a moral issue that borders both science and technology. We have a technology (elective abortion) that enables a woman to terminate the pregnancy, but at the cost of the fetus. The solution ought to be a another form of technology that does not The first reversible 100% effective raise the moral concerns abortion does. 100% effective contraceptive is expected to make its way to the American market in a year or two and I believe it, as well as other more reliable modern forms of contraception, are essential tools for conquering elective abortion without compromising either stakeholder's life or liberty. Ectogenesis would make it possible for non-viable fetuses (those pre-24-ish weeks) to survive outside of the mother. With these technologies, there will be no need for abortion. Even premature infants born too early for whatever reason, would have a chance at life thanks to ectogenesis.
Before those technologies are made readily available, many say we should make exceptions for the life of the woman and victims of sexual assault. I agree with the first, but have questioned how realistic it actually is. If the mother needs immediate medical attention, you should obviously treat her and not wait to do an abortion (which does take awhile and is quite invasive.) Certain treatments will result in death of the fetus (like some chemotherapy agents and the side effects of chemo), but I'd make the Kantian argument that the intentions were moral (save both lives) -- this was unattainable. Again, ectogenesis would allow for preservation of a non-viable fetus while the mother is treated. Until then, saving the mother should be the priority because it's essential for survival of both stakeholders (if she dies and the fetus isn't viable, it also dies.)
Sexual assault is another major issue and we need to focus on ending it while helping victims. How can we tell a victim what to do when we did nothing to protect them in the first place? That just sounds terrible to me. Look at some of the high profile cases -- some of those creeps went YEARS without being locked up. These people go after very vulnerable individuals (the very young, very old, smaller people, etc.) it's up to the rest of the world to help stand up for them and report any abuse we may witness or suspect. In addition, we need to better equip ERs to deal with such abuse, so victims are more comfortable with coming forward. I'd hope they would get help STAT, as they could be given the morning after pill or a hormone injection to prevent pregnancy and tested for things like HIV and have any other injuries treated. Coming forward right after the incident also allows for DNA sampling, so it's easier to identify the attacker and get these creeps off the streets.
Last edited by I<3Liberty; 07-22-2013 at 04:08 AM.
does it make me soulless if ambivalent on this question?
I used to think long and hard sbout rape, incest exceptions but it's hard to make sense because jmdrake has repeatedly pointed out to me any woman can claim to have been raped to obtain the abortion. They can also claim mental health problems to save the life i.e im going to be suicidal if I have this baby. So it's essentially tricky. I'm thinking it should be legal up to 60 or so days or whenever medical professionals suggest it is sustainable.
There are also the real dangers of backstreet abortions and you have to think about this as well when thinking about restrictions. The hardcore approach will no doubt lead to an increase in health problems if unskilled people are carrying them out to their own risk.
Potentially the ban it mentality could lead to Gosnell clinics in every undesirable part of town with local officials looking the other way. Think about that.
I prefer an educative approach but i'm for certain restrictions to protect a viable life whether that's 30 days, 60 days, 90 days I am not qualified to tell you.
Abortions should not be as casual as they seem to be today. That's my only frustration but i don't spend a lot of time worrying about it.
Last edited by Warlord; 07-22-2013 at 04:07 AM.
I would agree here. The GOP can do it tomorrow and it's completely justified. How Boehner can claim to be a Catholic while repeatedly voting for the debt ceiling to increase to shovel more money to abortion clinics is absurd.
Someone needs to remind Boehner he's not some facilitator for the president's debt machine. He holds the power of the purse and can zero out the Federal funding for abortions and dare the president not to sign it
Last edited by Warlord; 07-22-2013 at 04:15 AM.
People who had an abortion should be treated like a cold blooded murderers, because that is exactly what they are.
I despise the double standard surrounding it. If anyone other than a doctor kills the fetus, it's murder. If a doctor kills it, it's legal murder (an abortion) Make up your damn minds already. How can you let a huge group of people kill their unwanted children, yet if someone ends up hitting a mother, whether accidental or on purpose, and the fetus dies, then it's a homicide.
A savage barbaric tribal society where thugs parade the streets and illegally assault and murder innocent civilians, yeah that is the alternative to having police. Oh wait, that is the police
We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home.
- Edward R. Murrow
...I think we have moral obligations to disobey unjust laws, because non-cooperation with evil is as much as a moral obligation as cooperation with good. - MLK Jr.
How to trigger a liberal: "I didn't get vaccinated."
There are people out there that really should have had abortions and didnt. For example: Mitt Romneys Mother.
1776 > 1984
The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.
The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide
Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled
Moral/ethical positions often conflict with legal rational.
Especially when discussing abortion.
Against my better judgement I'm going to pose a few questions...
What about fathers rights?
What about mothers rights?
What about fetal rights?
What about tax-payer rights?
Seems like 90% or more of all the abortion threads and the associated opinions focus on mothers and babies while the elephant in the room remains unaddressed.
Carry on, I'm done..
A savage barbaric tribal society where thugs parade the streets and illegally assault and murder innocent civilians, yeah that is the alternative to having police. Oh wait, that is the police
We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home.
- Edward R. Murrow
...I think we have moral obligations to disobey unjust laws, because non-cooperation with evil is as much as a moral obligation as cooperation with good. - MLK Jr.
How to trigger a liberal: "I didn't get vaccinated."
So far it looks like the creator of this poll and about 85% of voters here don't think abortion should always be illegal. That's not quite to the level where I live but pretty close.
Lifetime member of more than 1 national gun organization and the New Hampshire Liberty Alliance. Part of Young Americans for Liberty and Campaign for Liberty. Free State Project participant and multi-year Free Talk Live AMPlifier.
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