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Thread: How DARE you not love Lincoln?

  1. #1

    How DARE you not love Lincoln?

    http://www.tomwoods.com/blog/were-th...-libertarians/

    July10th2013 We’re the Sweetie-Pie Libertarians

    I don’t want to mention names here. This transcends names. This is a phenomenon I’ve witnessed many times over the years. It’s the sweetie-pie libertarian syndrome.
    The other day, an aide to a prominent American politician was the subject of an attack in the major media. Why, this person has said some things that all right-thinking people oppose! When he was a radio host, he was provocative! We’ve never observed this phenomenon before! And he thinks there might be some kind of objection to the Lincoln regime! Why, he must support slavery!
    (Cue my interview with a zombie.)

    Now there are perfectly good reasons one might have to oppose the Lincoln regime. Lysander Spooner opposed it, and Spooner supported John Brown. (I suppose Spooner supported slavery?)
    A few thoughts off the top of my head:

    (1) Lincoln was a man of his time, which means he viewed large, centralized states as self-justifying goals. This was the age of centralization in Italy, Germany, and Japan, after all. Yes, large, centralized states can abolish slavery. They can also wage horrifying wars, carry out genocides, and erect massive police states. As many people were killed in World War I, the first great war of the world’s centralized states, as there had been slaves in the South.

    (2) The precedents set by Lincoln during the war have been exploited ever since by left-liberals and neoconservatives, who are all too glad to respond, when you object to some enormity of the War on Terror, “Why, even Lincoln did these things!”

    (3) In every other country in our hemisphere in which slavery was abolished in the nineteenth century it was done peacefully, without 1.5 million people dead, wounded, or missing.

    (4) The Lincoln legacy involves glorifying wars of nationalism and demonizing efforts at secession, wherever they may be and whatever the circumstances. To this day, Americans are taught to sympathize with central governments trying to keep territories from breaking away, and to look with disgust at smaller units seeking self-government.


    (5) Lincoln is the creator of the centralized, imperial regime under which we live today, which is the real reason left-liberals and their neoconservative cousins will brook no criticism of the sixteenth president.

    Now I am about to quote one of those Wicked Southerners, which will of course make me suspect of longing for slavery, but Robert E. Lee told the great libertarian Lord Acton in 1866 that “the consolidation of the states into one vast republic, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of that ruin which has overwhelmed all those that have preceded it.”
    If you are wondering how we got to our present condition, ponder that statement. Then consider the possibility that the great fratricidal war of American history might in its ultimate significance have amounted to something other than the cartoonish struggle of saints and sinners we encounter in the New York Times, or from so-called libertarian institutes.

    There is much, much more that can be said about all this, but I’ve now reached my destination: what I find so interesting is the reaction by what we might call “official libertarians,” or what Lew Rockwell calls “regime libertarians,” to the attacks on this person. Now this person has said nothing that Walter Williams, whom these very libertarians fawn over, hasn’t said at one time or another. This person is consistently antiwar, which is more than we can say for many of the people with whom official libertarians consort.
    But with attacks like this flying around, official libertarians do not miss the opportunity to inform the world — a world awaiting their announcements with bated breath, of course — that they themselves hold all the approved opinions about events in American history (Did you not get your state-approved education?). Moreover, the opinions they hold today, while different in many ways from those of the New York Times, are still within the range of allowable opinion. So please, please do not include me in your condemnations, oh Mr. Nice Media Person, sir.

    These are the libertarians who portray themselves as the abolitionists of today — an age when everyone in the world is an abolitionist. The real test is this: would you have been an abolitionist in the nineteenth century, when abolition parties received two percent of the vote, and lynchings of abolitionists were not unknown? What is the likelihood that someone so desperate to inform everyone that his views fall within the spectrum of allowable positions laid out by establishment opinion would have been — of all things! — an abolitionist, when it really counted?

    These are what I am now calling the sweetie-pie libertarians. Why, Mr. Media Person, sir, I am just an innocent bystander in this whole mess! I favor liberty, but would I question the judgments of our esteemed historians (on a matter that might make me unpopular)? Never! I can overlook the pro-war positions of people I work with and praise, but someone who used insensitive language a few times ten years ago? Why, that’s the greatest offense in the history of the world, Mr. Media Person, sir! (dripping with /S, love it.)

    Then these libertarians pat themselves on the back for protecting libertarianism against the wacko extremists who question their eighth-grade textbooks. The sweetie pies assure us that by policing the thoughts of libertarians, they will make our philosophy more attractive to other Americans. Wherever would we be without their wise custodianship of our brains?

    It’s a good thing the sweetie pies have no sense of irony. No one has ever heard of any of them, and not one of them has a following worth speaking of. It was Ron Paul — who just spoke his mind regardless of focus groups, and who told Meet the Press that (for example) no, he doesn’t believe the fourth-grade Civil War narrative — who set the world ablaze with interest in libertarianism. No sweetie pie has had a billionth of the impact the rule-breaker Ron Paul has had.

    Meanwhile, the sweetie pies, who are so anxious to protect libertarianism from people whose thoughts might soil it, utter not so much as a peep when their fellow sweetie pies ridicule the religious beliefs of a huge chunk of Americans, thereby alienating those people from libertarianism. This double standard is pretty much all you need to know about their solemn assurances that they’re just trying to make libertarianism palatable to the public.

    Sure they are.

    On the one hand, therefore, we have Ron Paul and his circle, which have converted more people (by orders of magnitude) to libertarianism than all the DC think-tanks put together. On the other, we have a handful of policy wonks protesting that they themselves are much better representatives of the cause. But no one can hear them over the cheers and huzzahs for Ron and his followers.

    It’s like Homer Simpson trying to tell Moe the bartender that he’s just lost himself a customer, but Moe can’t hear him over all the new customers he does have:



    I’ll end with this. One sweetie-pie organization thought it would dance all over what it assumed would be Ron Paul’s grave several years ago when the media attacks on him had grown severe and relentless. We told you so, they said. This is why we stayed aloof from him. Got to keep the cause pure, you know!

    But then, when they noted that the young people did not give a hoot what the media said about Ron, and that they themselves were like Homer in the bar, this organization sheepishly invited Ron to speak at a special event.
    As Johnny Most used to say: justice prevails.
    Last edited by WM_in_MO; 07-11-2013 at 06:04 AM.



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  3. #2


    Remember you godless heathen, AMERICA PREVAILS!

  4. #3
    TO be honest, centralized states gave us the modern state apparatus. While Some good came out of it (transcontinental railroads, and education) it all eventually fails later on. You could say left liberals want a return to a excellent One nation standard america. We have to accept the fact that one nation can only stand when the government represents the common founding values of then national charter written and the belief of the writers of that charter. If we all belief in welfare state and that a centralized government can do more good than a business with expanding influence, you will sooner or later end up have major regions declare independence. Quebec almost declared independence in 1995 and scotland is ready to vote on it in 2014.

  5. #4
    Lincoln was an absolute monster. I can only think of a handful of Presidents that came even close to his level of evil. I'd rank him "better" than FDR or Wilson and worse than everyone else.

    He was easily the worst President ever at the time when John Wilkes Booth heroically put an end to his regime.
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading

  6. #5
    This is why, i wish sweetie pie libertarians die off.

  7. #6
    reported. not acceptable thought parameters.
    assigned to re-education camp.
    rewritten history with armies of their crooks - invented memories, did burn all the books... Mark Knopfler

  8. #7
    I just wish hardcore statists of all types, and "lesser of two evils" voters, would just stop showing up at the ballot box.
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading

  9. #8
    Both sides were $#@!, so I see no reason to white-knight or demonize either in any way. I'd rather focus on the regime that's currently making life a living hell for Americans today. Lincoln and all slave owners can suck a big satanic dick in hell.
    Last edited by Antischism; 07-11-2013 at 08:41 PM.



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  11. #9
    I didn't defend the CSA. I said Lincoln was a freaking tyrant. Although, I still want to fly the rebel flag as an act of rebellion.

    The Confederacy was clearly the better side. Not good, but better. The North was evil, period.
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    I didn't defend the CSA. I said Lincoln was a freaking tyrant. Although, I still want to fly the rebel flag as an act of rebellion.

    The Confederacy was clearly the better side. Not good, but better. The North was evil, period.
    What was so great about the South? [for anyone to answer, not just directed to you]

    The "North was evil," what absolved the South? We are speaking of atrocities on both sides, am I right?
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
    Who else in public life has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea?--Donald Trump

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    I didn't defend the CSA. I said Lincoln was a freaking tyrant. Although, I still want to fly the rebel flag as an act of rebellion.

    The Confederacy was clearly the better side. Not good, but better. The North was evil, period.
    If that's in reply to me, I wasn't singling you out at all or implying that. Sorry if it came across that way.

    I'm just sick of the Lincoln thing from both sides. I don't even care to make any coherent or intelligent remarks on the issue, just a big $#@! IT, $#@! THEM. I'm tired.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by kcchiefs6465 View Post
    What was so great about the South? [for anyone to answer, not just directed to you]

    The "North was evil," what absolved the South? We are speaking of atrocities on both sides, am I right?
    The South was trying to break away from an oppressive government (And slavery had NOTHING to do with it for NC, Va, Ar, or Tn) and was defending themselves from a dictator who wanted to force the country to stay together and ban secession for all time.

    The South violated civil liberties too, but at the very least they did that in order to survive an invasion. Lincoln did it in order to win a war of aggression.

    Was the south libertarian utopia? Far from it. But they were better than the North. Easily.

    Quote Originally Posted by Antischism View Post
    If that's in reply to me, I wasn't singling you out at all or implying that. Sorry if it came across that way.

    I'm just sick of the Lincoln thing from both sides. I don't even care to make any coherent or intelligent remarks on the issue, just a big $#@! IT, $#@! THEM. I'm tired.
    I didn't think it was singling me out, but I also think you're wrong to ignore the issue entirely. Lincoln was indeed on the evil side of the war in question. The South was better. Not perfect, but better.
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    Lincoln was an absolute monster. I can only think of a handful of Presidents that came even close to his level of evil. I'd rank him "better" than FDR or Wilson and worse than everyone else.

    He was easily the worst President ever at the time when John Wilkes Booth heroically put an end to his regime.
    I refuse to give negative reputation points so here we go: you're going for shock value here right? I don't have very many post so what do I know, but didn't Lincoln issue greenbacks instead of borrowing from central banks? Thanks to everyone in advance for educating me and pointing out my naivety.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    The South was trying to break away from an oppressive government (And slavery had NOTHING to do with it for NC, Va, Ar, or Tn) and was defending themselves from a dictator who wanted to force the country to stay together and ban secession for all time.

    The South violated civil liberties too, but at the very least they did that in order to survive an invasion. Lincoln did it in order to win a war of aggression.

    Was the south libertarian utopia? Far from it. But they were better than the North. Easily.
    I am not well versed in Civil War History but I'd imagine at the time I'd have supported neither side. John Brown wasn't particularly wrong, I'd recognize any person's right to defend themselves. Especially from the brutality of slavery.

    Lincoln imprisoned journalists and suspended habeas corpus. I wouldn't have much sympathy for the man. I am actually pretty well ignorant on much of the subject and controversy. My school didn't much cover the Civil War. Hardly a battle or defining moment I can recall. The article was interesting but I'll have to do more research on the exact circumstances of the war to draw a firm opinion. At the moment I think both were in the wrong.

    At the least I would have supported slaves arming and freeing themselves. If an abolitionist wanted to help I wouldn't see a problem with it. I suppose I'm kind of stuck between the North's crimes and the South's crimes. I don't know, hard to say where I'd have been at the time. Probably not fighting for either the North or South.
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
    Who else in public life has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea?--Donald Trump

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by mtr1979 View Post
    I refuse to give negative reputation points so here we go: you're going for shock value here right? I don't have very many post so what do I know, but didn't Lincoln issue greenbacks instead of borrowing from central banks? Thanks to everyone in advance for educating me and pointing out my naivety.
    I'm not going for shock value. I'm completely serious.

    Type in:

    www.LewRockwell.com/Dilorenzo

    In google

    Quote Originally Posted by kcchiefs6465 View Post
    I am not well versed in Civil War History but I'd imagine at the time I'd have supported neither side. John Brown wasn't particularly wrong, I'd recognize any person's right to defend themselves. Especially from the brutality of slavery.

    Lincoln imprisoned journalists and suspended habeas corpus. I wouldn't have much sympathy for the man. I am actually pretty well ignorant on much of the subject and controversy. My school didn't much cover the Civil War. Hardly a battle or defining moment I can recall. The article was interesting but I'll have to do more research on the exact circumstances of the war to draw a firm opinion. At the moment I think both were in the wrong.

    At the least I would have supported slaves arming and freeing themselves. If an abolitionist wanted to help I wouldn't see a problem with it. I suppose I'm kind of stuck between the North's crimes and the South's crimes. I don't know, hard to say where I'd have been at the time. Probably not fighting for either the North or South.
    I agree that slaves arming and freeing themselves is justifiable. I don't support a northern invasion to stop the south from seceding. I'm with you that John Brown was at least broadly in the right as well.

    If the north really cared about freeing anyone, which they didn't, they should have repealed the fugitive slave acts.

    And yeah, if individual abolitionists wanted to help, and specifically target their violence at slaveholders, all the power to them, although pragmatically I don't think that would have been a good idea.

    I maintain that the South was the lesser of two evils. I'm not necessarily saying I'd fight either, I'm saying they're the lesser evil.
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading



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