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Thread: the right to commit suicide is not a RIGHT! - everyone should understand this!

  1. #1

    the right to commit suicide is not a RIGHT! - everyone should understand this!

    rights come with life and end with life. when one commits suicide, one is terminating one's life and terminating his rights to life at the same time! so a hero who comes to save your life is NOT violating your right to commit suicide, a NON-right. rather, he's saving your life, restoring your rights to life at the same time. a saved person cannot go to a court to sue the hero! the court will throw out the case immediately. why? if not for the hero, you'll be a dead body! one has every right to handle one's body to the very point that one's life is not endangered. thus taking drugs and putting on tattoo are valid rights! but suicide is not! thus folks who are for euthanasia should not invoke the right to finish own life as the legit argument. since i can't find a legit reason to rationalize euthanasia without great conflicts of interests, i don't support euthanasia. this is all my essay is trying to say! please focus on my logic. i know you hate my conclusion. trying to prove that taking own life is a valid right first. i'm confident you can't! http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...nti-Euthanasia


    to clarify things, to my understanding
    1. RIGHTS are everything one can do to himself or his property in order to LIVE without hurting others.

    2. SUICIDE is to DIE. so suicide is NOT a RIGHT. suicide is self-destruction. that's why the hero saving someone's life against will is NOT violating his rights.

    3. SUICIDE is NOT a CRIME, because suicide doesn't hurt other people. CRIME by definition is hurting others. that's why in modern days we never punish a person who failed a suicide.

    4. SUICIDE is the only exception among all the things you can do. all the other actions are your rights, which can't be interfered by anyone. SUICIDE is something you can do to yourself, but it can be intervened by other people! that's why suiciders will always try to do it when nobody can stop him. you don't need to worry about other people stopping you reading a book?

    5. SUICIDE is to DIE. so SUICIDE will terminate you and all of your rights at the same time. your properties will be passed onto other people. your body will be buried or burned. an action that terminates all rights cannot be a right logically. someone saving your life is restoring your life and restoring your rights at the same time. so it'll be absurd for you to charge the person for any damage. because if not for him, you'd already be terminated.

    6. to die is to terminate someone's life and all of his rights. so a contract agreed upon willingly between two parties with one party set to kill the other party is a VOID contract. because the split second when the contract is executed, one party's life and rights are all terminated. so breaching the contract actually restore his life and his rights, while fulfilling the contract will terminate his life and all his rights. so what's the point of fulfilling the contract? anyone is free to stop the contract from executing. stop the contract from executing is saving the party to be killed!

    7. if we agree to the above points that suicide is not a right with all its consequences and a contract for one party to kill another is a VOID contract. we should not invoke the non-existent right of suicide to rationalize euthanasia. we must come up with a better logic to prove euthanasia is rational especially when euthanasia involves other people to take one's life usually with a signed agreement.

    i'm NOT a lawyer. i arrived at the above conclusions based on pure logic. let's have a meaningful discussion. please do not attack me personally.
    Last edited by judejin; 07-05-2013 at 02:11 AM.



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  3. #2
    Lol sorry but my life is my property. So I can do with it what I want..

    Do you understand property rights??
    The ultimate minority is the individual. Protect the individual from Democracy and you will protect all groups of individuals
    Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual. - Thomas Jefferson
    I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

    - Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear

  4. #3
    your subject line is a contradiction.

  5. #4
    a saved person cannot go to a court to sue the hero
    Actually, F, they can.
    Genuine, willful, aggressive ignorance is the one sure way to tick me off. I wish I could say you were trolling. I know better, and it's just sad.

  6. #5
    Sometimes, to risk self suicide by another, it is an obligation.

  7. #6
    Sorry but you have zero claim to my body or my soul (whatever that may be).

    Anti-suicide laws are the epitome of statist ridiculousness.

  8. #7
    give me one freaking example, please!?

  9. #8
    so you want to sue the person who saved you? the court will say: if not for the hero, you'll be carried here in a body bag. one can commit suicide when nobody is around to save you. the mission accomplished, you're dead. but as soon as some discovers you, he'll try to save you. from time immemorial, this is a heroic act. why? because savng your life is restoring all rights to life(excluding this non-right to kill oneself). basically you can't call a right to negate all rights a RIGHT. suicide is to negate all rights. thus suicide is not a RIGHT. well, i'm really dissapointed that very few people understand this.



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  11. #9
    you don't understand my logic. only focus on my conclusion. try to understand my logic first. suicide is to negate all rights(terminate life). thus it is not a right.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by judejin View Post
    rights come with life and end with life. when one commits suicide, one is terminating one's life and terminating his rights to life at the same time! so a hero who comes to save your life is NOT violating your right to commit suicide, a NON-right.
    Have you always been this stupid or are you just that poor at trolling?

    I try so hard to be polite here, but every once in a while the combination of a rough day and the brand of inane drive witnessed here just puts me beyond grace.

    rather, he's saving your life, restoring your rights to life at the same time. a saved person cannot go to a court to sue the hero! the court will throw out the case immediately. why? if not for the hero, you'll be a dead body! one has every right to handle one's body to the very point that one's life is not endangered. thus taking drugs and putting on tattoo are valid rights! but suicide is not! thus folks who are for euthanasia should not invoke the right to finish own life as the legit argument. since i can't find a legit reason to rationalize euthanasia without great conflicts of interests, i don't support euthanasia. this is all my essay is trying to say! please focus on my logic. i know you hate my conclusion. trying to prove that taking own life is a valid right first. i'm confident you can't! http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...nti-Euthanasia
    God, I pray to you that you put every obstacle in the way of this person to prevent them from reproducing because success at that endeavor would constitute a crime against humanity.

    PS: if I am serious about suicide, there will be no hero saving me. But freakish thing happen and I promise you this: if I ever tried and you "saved" me, I would hunt you and kill you in the most horrifically and unspeakably gruesome manner imaginable and that is no joke.

    Moral of the story: mind your own $#@!ing business, $#@!.

    PPS: regarding the bold text, I meant that in the broad third person, not to the OP personally. Since some so thoroughly misread the general content of this post I felt the desire to clarify this point because it is the single one that is not 100% clear as to whom it speaks. It speaks to everyone, including myownself.
    Last edited by osan; 07-03-2013 at 05:04 PM.
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  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    Have you always been this stupid or are you just that poor at trolling?

    I try so hard to be polite here, but every once in a while the combination of a rough day and the brand of inane drive witnessed here just puts me beyond grace.



    God, I pray to you that you put every obstacle in the way of this person to prevent them from reproducing because success at that endeavor would constitute a crime against humanity.
    Thread done.................

  14. #12
    And just what do you propose to do to or for someone who violates his or her own right to life (by committing suicide)?

    If the violation (suicide attempt) is successful, then:
    (1) the violator is beyond any possibility of being held liable, and
    (2) the violatee is beyond any possibility of retributive or restitutional justice.

    Pontless assertion of rights is pointless ...
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  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by judejin View Post
    you don't understand my logic. only focus on my conclusion. try to understand my logic first. suicide is to negate all rights(terminate life). thus it is not a right.
    SOO your right to stop making decisions ENDS when you commit suicide? So its still your right all the way up to the point you pull the trigger....

    wait.. no that's wrong. You might miss. Then you have the right to try again, because you didn't commit suicide, you just committed an error.
    No - No - No - No
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  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by MelissaWV View Post
    Actually, F, they can.
    I believe most if not all states have Good Samaritan laws now.

    I don't think you can sue someone whose intentions only were to help. (even if they caused further damage) IIRC the laws were brought about because someone became paralyzed after being moved from a car crash? Something like that. A person who was injured was moved and it caused further injury. The judge threw the case out because the good Samaritan's intentions weren't malevolent.
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  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    Have you always been this stupid or are you just that poor at trolling?

    I try so hard to be polite here, but every once in a while the combination of a rough day and the brand of inane drive witnessed here just puts me beyond grace.



    God, I pray to you that you put every obstacle in the way of this person to prevent them from reproducing because success at that endeavor would constitute a crime against humanity.

    PS: if I am serious about suicide, there will be no hero saving me. But freakish thing happen and I promise you this: if I ever tried and you "saved" me, I would hunt you and kill you in the most horrifically and unspeakably gruesome manner imaginable and that is no joke.

    Moral of the story: mind your own $#@!ing business, $#@!.
    That is absolutely terrible! Why would you kill someone for saving your life? That's called murder.

    How do you reconcile this with your principles? Not only killing someone, but doing so with a vengeance and then disgracing their body in death simply because you are alive to do so because of them is just the most absurd violation of any libertarian principles I can think of. Not only that, but it's simply stupid. Who in the hell cares that much about dying that they would want to maul someone to death simply because they saved their life? Do the suicidal have no empathy for those who are not suicidal? Is life that terrible that you have to do unspeakable things to someone and kill them simply because they prolonged your life? Maybe they are an $#@!, but do all $#@!s really deserve THAT?

    If this is really what you believe, then you are the $#@!, my friend. You are also the most arrogant piece of $#@! to ever grace the earth with your existence. God bless the soul that would even care to save such an $#@! as you.
    Last edited by PaulConventionWV; 07-02-2013 at 08:44 PM.
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  18. #16
    As to the OP, euthanasia is compassion. I could care less if they call it a right, a privilege, a contract between two parties. I believe it is a right. My body, who are you to tell me what I can do with it? To open that door you are opening all kinds of other doors. Destroying one's body is done daily. People overeat. People drink. People smoke. People take harmful drugs. What right have you to prevent them from doing what they wish to do with their body?

    It's a shame people neg repped you on what few posts you have. Here's a plus rep though I don't agree with your position. I am curious though, why is this issue so at heart with you? Euthanasia should be made legal with contracts written up to ensure validity in one's wishes but this issue doesn't even cross my mind in the scope of how far gone we are. (though it is a good example) You've obviously given it a lot of thought. Why?
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
    Who else in public life has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea?--Donald Trump



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    Moral of the story: mind your own $#@!ing business, $#@!.
    THE quintessence of libertarianism!
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    And just what do you propose to do to or for someone who violates his or her own right to life (by committing suicide)?
    Clearly the solution is 50 years in a rape cage. If a minority or homosexual commits suicide, it's clearly a 'hate crime' and is punishable by execution.
    Knowledge will forever govern ignorance; and a people who mean to be their own governors must arm themselves with the power which knowledge gives. -James Madison

  22. #19
    I personally think it's ridiculous to sue someone who tried to save your life. Friends and family should be able to prevent you from harming yourself by any means possible, and it should not involve the state in any way. No laws should prohibit suicide, nor should any laws prohibit the prevention of it, nor should any legal action be taken against anyone who does so.

    I'm not sure about euthanasia. There are some conflicts of interest there that muddy the waters. On the subject of suicide, however, nobody can feasibly be accused of wrondoing simply for preserving someone's life. If you wanted to die, why would you then demand money to live? To me, that's just the most selfish thing to think that you, only being alive because of the hero, can turn around and demand money from the hero even though you wouldn't have been able to sue him had you succeeded or he failed.

    First, you were selfish enough to think that you had absolutely no obligation to keep living to your natural end, then you thought it prudent to harm someone else in life just because they allowed you to be alive in that time that you would have been dead? That is the most arrogant thing I can think of. If you are going to commit suicide, do so peacefully. If you fail, tough luck, but don't try to bring other people down with you by suing them for being alive. You can't have your cake and eat it, too.
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  23. #20
    I own my body,so I own my life.if I don't own my life,who does?
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  24. #21
    Also, I don't agree with the OP that the suicidal person is giving up their right to life once they try to commit suicide. They do if they succeed, but not before. Afterward, it's a non-issue.
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  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by judejin View Post
    so you want to sue the person who saved you? the court will say: if not for the hero, you'll be carried here in a body bag. one can commit suicide when nobody is around to save you. the mission accomplished, you're dead. but as soon as some discovers you, he'll try to save you. from time immemorial, this is a heroic act. why? because savng your life is restoring all rights to life(excluding this non-right to kill oneself). basically you can't call a right to negate all rights a RIGHT. suicide is to negate all rights. thus suicide is not a RIGHT. well, i'm really dissapointed that very few people understand this.
    Sounds like you experienced some pain.

    I believe that suicide is an individual's choice and between him and God- so thus, a right. I also believe that saving a suicidal victim is also a choice and a right.

    Many people are suicidal because of a loss of self worth or loved one, medicines that do crazy things to the mind, etc. My brother has spent the last year keeping a dear friend alive. 911, hospitals, by her side constantly- the whole 9 yards. She is very fragile and would be dead now if not for him. He has done all in his power to help her see her own value and to help her begin to love her life. She may get better, mentally, or she may succeed one day in a suicidal attempt.

    Whatever happens, she at least knows that someone cared - my bro knows he did all in his power.
    There is no spoon.

  26. #23
    I am sorry that it has come to this.

    The fact is, for as long as I can remember my motivation for getting up every day has been so that you would not have to bury me. As things have continued to get worse, it has become clear that this alone is not a sufficient reason to carry on. The fact is, I am not getting better, I am not going to get better, and I will most certainly deteriorate further as time goes on. From a logical standpoint, it is better to simply end things quickly and let any repercussions from that play out in the short term than to drag things out into the long term.

    You will perhaps be sad for a time, but over time you will forget and begin to carry on. Far better that than to inflict my growing misery upon you for years and decades to come, dragging you down with me. It is because I love you that I can not do this to you. You will come to see that it is a far better thing as one day after another passes during which you do not have to worry about me or even give me a second thought. You will find that your world is better without me in it.

    I really have been trying to hang on, for more than a decade now. Each day has been a testament to the extent to which I cared, suffering unspeakable horror as quietly as possible so that you could feel as though I was still here for you. In truth, I was nothing more than a prop, filling space so that my absence would not be noted. In truth, I have already been absent for a long, long time.

    My body has become nothing but a cage, a source of pain and constant problems. The illness I have has caused me pain that not even the strongest medicines could dull, and there is no cure. All day, every day a screaming agony in every nerve ending in my body. It is nothing short of torture. My mind is a wasteland, filled with visions of incredible horror, unceasing depression, and crippling anxiety, even with all of the medications the doctors dare give. Simple things that everyone else takes for granted are nearly impossible for me. I can not laugh or cry. I can barely leave the house. I derive no pleasure from any activity. Everything simply comes down to passing time until I can sleep again. Now, to sleep forever seems to be the most merciful thing.

    You must not blame yourself. The simple truth is this: During my first deployment, I was made to participate in things, the enormity of which is hard to describe. War crimes, crimes against humanity. Though I did not participate willingly, and made what I thought was my best effort to stop these events, there are some things that a person simply can not come back from. I take some pride in that, actually, as to move on in life after being part of such a thing would be the mark of a sociopath in my mind. These things go far beyond what most are even aware of.

    To force me to do these things and then participate in the ensuing coverup is more than any government has the right to demand. Then, the same government has turned around and abandoned me. They offer no help, and actively block the pursuit of gaining outside help via their corrupt agents at the DEA. Any blame rests with them.

    Beyond that, there are the host of physical illnesses that have struck me down again and again, for which they also offer no help. There might be some progress by now if they had not spent nearly twenty years denying the illness that I and so many others were exposed to. Further complicating matters is the repeated and severe brain injuries to which I was subjected, which they also seem to be expending no effort into understanding. What is known is that each of these should have been cause enough for immediate medical attention, which was not rendered.

    Lastly, the DEA enters the picture again as they have now managed to create such a culture of fear in the medical community that doctors are too scared to even take the necessary steps to control the symptoms. All under the guise of a completely manufactured “overprescribing epidemic,” which stands in stark relief to all of the legitimate research, which shows the opposite to be true. Perhaps, with the right medication at the right doses, I could have bought a couple of decent years, but even that is too much to ask from a regime built upon the idea that suffering is noble and relief is just for the weak.

    However, when the challenges facing a person are already so great that all but the weakest would give up, these extra factors are enough to push a person over the edge.

    Is it any wonder then that the latest figures show 22 veterans killing themselves each day? That is more veterans than children killed at Sandy Hook, every single day. Where are the huge policy initiatives? Why isn’t the president standing with those families at the state of the union? Perhaps because we were not killed by a single lunatic, but rather by his own system of dehumanization, neglect, and indifference.

    It leaves us to where all we have to look forward to is constant pain, misery, poverty, and dishonor. I assure you that, when the numbers do finally drop, it will merely be because those who were pushed the farthest are all already dead.

    And for what? Bush’s religious lunacy? Cheney’s ever growing fortune and that of his corporate friends? Is this what we destroy lives for

    Since then, I have tried everything to fill the void. I tried to move into a position of greater power and influence to try and right some of the wrongs. I deployed again, where I put a huge emphasis on saving lives. The fact of the matter, though, is that any new lives saved do not replace those who were murdered. It is an exercise in futility.

    Then, I pursued replacing destruction with creation. For a time this provided a distraction, but it could not last. The fact is that any kind of ordinary life is an insult to those who died at my hand. How can I possibly go around like everyone else while the widows and orphans I created continue to struggle? If they could see me sitting here in suburbia, in my comfortable home working on some music project they would be outraged, and rightfully so.

    I thought perhaps I could make some headway with this film project, maybe even directly appealing to those I had wronged and exposing a greater truth, but that is also now being taken away from me. I fear that, just as with everything else that requires the involvement of people who can not understand by virtue of never having been there, it is going to fall apart as careers get in the way.

    The last thought that has occurred to me is one of some kind of final mission. It is true that I have found that I am capable of finding some kind of reprieve by doing things that are worthwhile on the scale of life and death. While it is a nice thought to consider doing some good with my skills, experience, and killer instinct, the truth is that it isn’t realistic. First, there are the logistics of financing and equipping my own operation, then there is the near certainty of a grisly death, international incidents, and being branded a terrorist in the media that would follow. What is really stopping me, though, is that I simply am too sick to be effective in the field anymore. That, too, has been taken from me.

    Thus, I am left with basically nothing. Too trapped in a war to be at peace, too damaged to be at war. Abandoned by those who would take the easy route, and a liability to those who stick it out—and thus deserve better. So you see, not only am I better off dead, but the world is better without me in it

    This is what brought me to my actual final mission. Not suicide, but a mercy killing. I know how to kill, and I know how to do it so that there is no pain whatsoever. It was quick, and I did not suffer. And above all, now I am free. I feel no more pain. I have no more nightmares or flashbacks or hallucinations. I am no longer constantly depressed or afraid or worried

    I am free.

    I ask that you be happy for me for that. It is perhaps the best break I could have hoped for. Please accept this and be glad for me.
    This goes here, I think. The above is the suicide note left by Daniel Somers, a veteran of Operation Iraqi Freedom, among other things.

    I support this man's right to head on to the next part of his journey, if there is indeed a next part. He had suffered enough.

    Your life is your life. Euthanasia is compassion.
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
    Who else in public life has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea?--Donald Trump

  27. #24
    Trying to justify accusing someone of damages for prolonging life by using some twisted form of property rights is absolutely ridiculous. Anyone who is so full of themselves that they think the person who prolonged their life deserves to be hunted down and brutally murdered like osan does, is literally insane. There is no other way to put it. You can't reasonably think you have the right to brutally murder someone simply because they extended your life a little longer.
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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by PaulConventionWV View Post
    Trying to justify accusing someone of damages for prolonging life by using some twisted form of property rights is absolutely ridiculous. Anyone who is so full of themselves that they think the person who prolonged their life deserves to be hunted down and brutally murdered like osan does, is literally insane. There is no other way to put it. You can't reasonably think you have the right to brutally murder someone simply because they extended your life a little longer.
    Mind your own business and you won't be minding mine.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by judejin View Post
    give me one freaking example, please!?

    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Mind your own business and you won't be minding mine.
    Are you defending brutally murdering someone for saving your life? Minding your own business, to me, means not getting the state involved, and I don't think there should be any laws one way or the other, but how can you seriously accuse someone who saved you of any wrongdoing? Are you that selfish that you think you have no obligation to anyone else to live and then when you are saved try to drag down others by suing them? That is absolutely ridiculous.

    I'll concede that they may be $#@!s for minding your business, but that doesn't justify killing them or taking money from them. Sometimes what you need is an $#@! daring enough to dissent.

    How important are you that you must be granted your death and granted money if you life. You can't have your cake and eat it, too.
    Last edited by PaulConventionWV; 07-02-2013 at 09:17 PM.
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  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by judejin View Post
    rights come with life and end with life. when one commits suicide, one is terminating one's life and terminating his rights to life at the same time! so a hero who comes to save your life is NOT violating your right to commit suicide, a NON-right. rather, he's saving your life, restoring your rights to life at the same time. a saved person cannot go to a court to sue the hero! the court will throw out the case immediately. why? if not for the hero, you'll be a dead body! one has every right to handle one's body to the very point that one's life is not endangered. thus taking drugs and putting on tattoo are valid rights! but suicide is not! thus folks who are for euthanasia should not invoke the right to finish own life as the legit argument. since i can't find a legit reason to rationalize euthanasia without great conflicts of interests, i don't support euthanasia. this is all my essay is trying to say! please focus on my logic. i know you hate my conclusion. trying to prove that taking own life is a valid right first. i'm confident you can't! http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...nti-Euthanasia
    ...but what about people with terminal incurable diseases? That disease has essentially interfered with their right to life, so euthanasia is just speeding up the process. Do we have a moral or legal duty to ensure incurable disease research has sufficient funding and these people have access to healthcare?

  33. #29

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by I<3Liberty View Post
    ...but what about people with terminal incurable diseases? That disease has essentially interfered with their right to life, so euthanasia is just speeding up the process. Do we have a moral or legal duty to ensure incurable disease research has sufficient funding and these people have access to healthcare?
    That's more what I was referring to. Having seen what chemotherapy does, I will not be going through it. Cancer advances will probably be a lot better by that time though.

    I'd just rather go out dignified, never changed, and after saying goodbyes to those who loved me. Euthanasia truly is compassionate. I don't care what anyone has to say about the choice I may have to make. I'm in no way suicidal but to prevent needless suffering for months until the ultimate conclusion, let's just say I'd make my own arrangements.

    Heartbreaking case I posted a couple months back of the man who was married to his wife something like 60 years. He was originally charged with murder for putting his wife out of her misery. Well truthfully that isn't what happened. He shot her in the head and she lived for another 12 hours or so. A real tragic case as it was clear that was what she wanted, but that the shot didn't kill her instantly. She died later at the hospital. He received two years probation as I recall but had the option of being medically euthanized been available it would have been far less grotesque and painful.

    Sad story. With how long they were together I wouldn't be surprised if he passes soon himself if he and his body hasn't already given up.
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
    Who else in public life has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea?--Donald Trump

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