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Thread: Baffled homebuilders struggle with shortage of carpenters

  1. #1

    Baffled homebuilders struggle with shortage of carpenters

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repor...ticle12661805/

    Hispanics undercut the wages in the profession, and now homebuilders can't find help.



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  3. #2
    I know plenty of professional frame carpenters looking for work, problem is this is East coast work they're speaking of and if any of these ol' hillbillies are going to leave the sticks to work "there" the builders are going to have to pony-up wages and per diem up front.

    Calling whiny builders?

    Are you out there?

    Or is it easier to snivel about your lost illegal labor?

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    I know plenty of professional frame carpenters looking for work, problem is this is East coast work they're speaking of and if any of these ol' hillbillies are going to leave the sticks to work "there" the builders are going to have to pony-up wages and per diem up front.

    Calling whiny builders?

    Are you out there?

    Or is it easier to snivel about your lost illegal labor?
    Really tugs at the heartstrings doesn't it?

  5. #4
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

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    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    I know plenty of professional frame carpenters looking for work, problem is this is East coast work they're speaking of and if any of these ol' hillbillies are going to leave the sticks to work "there" the builders are going to have to pony-up wages and per diem up front.

    Calling whiny builders?

    Are you out there?

    Or is it easier to snivel about your lost illegal labor?
    That's the thing. The Mexicans will travel 1200 miles to take a job that pays minimum wage. Americans don't have to, so they don't. But the builders have valid point. *If* the market is lacking in labor, wages should be rising. As it stands, the American worker is going to be required to spend a lot of money buying health care, since the illegal laborers already managed to get benefits removed from the construction wage packages. The illegals have no such requirement, so they can afford to work for less.

    That's what happened in the '90's - 2k era. Homes were in mega demand, prices skyrocketing, critical labor shortages ... and construction wages went down.
    Last edited by angelatc; 06-19-2013 at 11:02 AM.

  7. #6
    There is a shortage of new, 5000sf homes on the beach, selling for $100,000.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    That's the thing. The Mexicans will travel 1200 miles to take a job that pays minimum wage. Americans don't have to, so they don't. But the builders have valid point. *If* the market is lacking in labor, wages should be rising. As it stands, the American worker is going to be required to spend a lot of money buying health care, since the illegal laborers already managed to get benefits removed from the construction wage packages. The illegals have no such requirement, so they can afford to work for less.
    I can assure you I know of nobody who would pack-up their truck and drive out there to work in that $#@!-hole unless it was well worth their time.

    It's plenty easy to get snookered right here at home without traveling 1500+ miles..

    Cut off welfare and all of a sudden everyone on the coast'll be a framer..

  9. #8
    There is no shortage of workers, there is, however, a plethora of people not willing to pay said workers. Take my job, for instance. I install/maintain hurricane shutters. My buddy and I are two of the very few people in the panhandle of Florida that even know how to fix 98% of what was installed here over the last 20 years. We charge $100 per shutter for maintenance, $125/per if we have to drive over 50 miles from home base. I would say the average home we work on is 2 million plus, some smaller stuff, but the larger homes are the norm...and yet, I'm struggling to pay my bills. There's work, but not many willing to pay, even when paying wouldn't even make a microscopic scratch on their finances, and would help immensely with ours..

    We do free estimates, sometimes driving 80 miles in one direction, just to have these people scoff at our prices. We even had one woman tell us we should do her shutters for free, "considering who she was*". The one, and only time I have ever told a customer to "GO $#@! YOURSELF!".

    *A local public official, I won't name names(NSA, you know who she is).
    EX-USCG


    What is the difference between a hero and a cop? A hero will not hesitate to risk his life to protect your safety, a cop will not hesitate to risk your life to protect his safety.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Authoritarian leftists. Political prisoners. Gulags. Where are we again?



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  11. #9
    New headline:

    "Baffled Bullion investors can't find 1oz Gold American Eagles for $5 each."
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  12. #10
    Coastie,

    I started charging for estimates, I'll subtract the estimate cost from a signed contract but I'm not giving away gas or time to tire-kickers..

  13. #11
    Yeah, free estimates are a thing of the past. Charge $50 or something, then like Tod said, deduct it from the cost of working on the shutters.

    If people don't like hearing the $125 per shutter price, maybe charge an hourly rate, plus materials. When I was in the service industry, we always charged $30 for the first half hour, and $30 for every hour after that. That gave us a half hour travel time in the bill. But that was for only one guy, not two. And it was in the 1980's....

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Coastie,

    I started charging for estimates, I'll subtract the estimate cost from a signed contract but I'm not giving away gas or time to tire-kickers..
    Yeah, I failed to mention we started that 2 weeks ago...now, the crickets are chirping, phone has only rang once or twice since, neither call resulted in work. I'm now taking a night job at a restaurant to make ends meet, but it s already too late for me on that end...Funny how one month of missing bills turns into an unstoppable avalanche.
    EX-USCG


    What is the difference between a hero and a cop? A hero will not hesitate to risk his life to protect your safety, a cop will not hesitate to risk your life to protect his safety.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Authoritarian leftists. Political prisoners. Gulags. Where are we again?

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Coastie,

    I started charging for estimates, I'll subtract the estimate cost from a signed contract but I'm not giving away gas or time to tire-kickers..
    Yeah, got to watch out for that. I once had an executive and his highest level Indian engineers scam a free hour of consulting out of me. They claimed to have a project they wanted done, but in reality, they just wanted me to give them solutions to their problems (free of charge). The CEO was in big trouble at the time. Financial scandal, Sarbanes–Oxley compliance, etc. Bad practices by the Indian "experts" left a lot of companies in trouble with auditing at that time.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by coastie View Post
    Yeah, I failed to mention we started that 2 weeks ago...now, the crickets are chirping, phone has only rang once or twice since, neither call resulted in work. I'm now taking a night job at a restaurant to make ends meet, but it s already too late for me on that end...Funny how one month of missing bills turns into an unstoppable avalanche.
    That sounds like a real pain. Maybe you could allow a certain amount of your budget for advertizing and marketing, and count the estimates that way. Because, essentially that's what estimates are........advertizing to get business.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by coastie View Post
    Yeah, I failed to mention we started that 2 weeks ago...now, the crickets are chirping, phone has only rang once or twice since, neither call resulted in work. I'm now taking a night job at a restaurant to make ends meet, but it s already too late for me on that end...Funny how one month of missing bills turns into an unstoppable avalanche.
    Yes, I know your pain. I am really sorry!

    Where and how are you advertising? Maybe we can pool our minds together and help.

  18. #16
    "The-Trades" work primarily by word of mouth, what Costie is doing qualifies as a trade.

    I'd stick to my guns, people who pay others to perform maintenance can afford to pay for estimates too.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    "The-Trades" work primarily by word of mouth, what Costie is doing qualifies as a trade.

    I'd stick to my guns, people who pay others to perform maintenance can afford to pay for estimates too.
    Just a guess, but middle-class retired folks might be a good target customer base. They will be fair. The ultra-wealthy, connected and famous not so much. Many of them expect things to be handed to them.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  21. #18
    It's weird to hear of all this. Out here in the sticks, my dad's company hasn't had trouble finding work for the 2 or 3 years they've been in business. They've already worked on quite a few high-end houses on golf courses and private clubs, worked for mayors and other prominent people. Maybe it's the work they do or their price, but I tend to think it's a location thing. Work seems to be in pretty high demand out here as far as I can tell. It may not be in other places.

    The hard part seems to be getting the customers to pay up.
    Last edited by PaulConventionWV; 06-19-2013 at 11:46 AM.
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  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Yes, I know your pain. I am really sorry!

    Where and how are you advertising? Maybe we can pool our minds together and help.

    Well, if I can't even pay bills....money for advertizing is out of the question.The jobs are so sporadic now that by the time I do get work, I'm already in the negative. Budget? LMAO, you have to know what's coming in to make a budget. I never know that. Hell, a moth or two ago I made $2000 in 4 days...and have had $#@! since then. I made less than $500 last month, and have barely peeked over $200 this month so far, got one $100 job on Friday..

    I wasn't kidding about the avalanche, and part of the reason I've been gone from here for a while - I'm not in a good place right now, in any way. Situation normal for me, in other words, lol.
    EX-USCG


    What is the difference between a hero and a cop? A hero will not hesitate to risk his life to protect your safety, a cop will not hesitate to risk your life to protect his safety.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Authoritarian leftists. Political prisoners. Gulags. Where are we again?

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by PaulConventionWV View Post
    It's weird to hear of all this. Out here in the sticks, my dad's company hasn't had trouble finding work for the 2 or 3 years they've been in business. They've already worked on quite a few high-end houses on golf courses and private clubs, worked for mayors and other prominent people. Maybe it's the work they do or their price, but I tend to think it's a location thing. Work seems to be in pretty high demand out here as far as I can tell. It may not be in other places.

    The hard part seems to be getting the customers to pay up.
    You seem to be describing new construction, which is doing pretty good right now. What business is he in?
    EX-USCG


    What is the difference between a hero and a cop? A hero will not hesitate to risk his life to protect your safety, a cop will not hesitate to risk your life to protect his safety.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Authoritarian leftists. Political prisoners. Gulags. Where are we again?

  24. #21
    Whenever I have the construction fellows out here for a job, I always ask them for estimates on future work at that time (had to get a spot on the roof patched, logically that's the time to ask for an estimate for roof replacement). I also prepare the area as best as I can to make it easier (move furniture, roll up the rug, etc.) They're good and have fair prices--if I were a jerk to them, they'd probably charge me for estimates.

    Of course, that doesn't help coastie in the slightest. Tod's right though--we found them through word of mouth and I'd recommend them to anyone.
    Those who want liberty must organize as effectively as those who want tyranny. -- Iyad el Baghdadi

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    "The-Trades" work primarily by word of mouth, what Costie is doing qualifies as a trade.

    I'd stick to my guns, people who pay others to perform maintenance can afford to pay for estimates too.
    Yes, but I was a homeowner in Florida. I know where I looked when I needed to find people in the trades.

  26. #23
    Coastie,

    When I was a young carpenter just starting out I knew I didn't want to work for general contractors, there was more money and less headache in remodeling, so I picked a neighborhood and went door to door introducing myself. That worked well in small-town middle America...

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by coastie View Post
    Well, if I can't even pay bills....money for advertizing is out of the question.The jobs are so sporadic now that by the time I do get work, I'm already in the negative. Budget? LMAO, you have to know what's coming in to make a budget. I never know that. Hell, a moth or two ago I made $2000 in 4 days...and have had $#@! since then. I made less than $500 last month, and have barely peeked over $200 this month so far, got one $100 job on Friday..

    I wasn't kidding about the avalanche, and part of the reason I've been gone from here for a while - I'm not in a good place right now, in any way. Situation normal for me, in other words, lol.
    There are places you can advertise for free. Craigslist, Patch, even local Facebook groups. Make friends with the company's that install new ones - work out a deal for referral fees when it's appropriate.

    I had hurricane shutters when I lived in Florida, and I *never* for a minute thought about who I should call if they didn't work. I venture that most people have no idea where to get service on those things.

    You could even start offering an inspection/maintenance service, so your customers can rest assured the shutters will work when they need them. That's what the AC guys do in their slow seasons.



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  29. #25
    Before I got out of construction again 4 months ago I was making 18$ an hour up from 10$ during 2011-2012. These people are retarded and if prices don't rise they won't have workers.

    This isn't the fault of Mexicans even. Americans that can't compete with someone that doesn't even speak their mother language have more then just wage problems. How can an American with 10 years of experience have a trainee out-work and be comparable with them.

    When I ran a construction business I never ever hired Americans. They are usually fat, lazy, need 2 helpers and will make you pay all three of them. They are a waste and I can't wait for reality to sink in. I'm tired of competing with guys that want to compete and want unions and free stuff. They are just lazy, government have been raining the few dollars an hour on them for so long it has blunted their perception.
    Last edited by talkingpointes; 06-19-2013 at 01:27 PM.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Coastie,

    When I was a young carpenter just starting out I knew I didn't want to work for general contractors, there was more money and less headache in remodeling, so I picked a neighborhood and went door to door introducing myself. That worked well in small-town middle America...
    My friend's husband rus a big handyman firm that he started with an ad in the back of one of those "free" papers they have/had at the grocery store.

    Back in the day, I would have suggested getting a phone book and picking up the phone and calling people who have those shutters. But that's a problem if they're on the no-call list.

    You could print up flyers, drive around and target homes you see with the shutters.
    Last edited by angelatc; 06-19-2013 at 11:58 AM.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by talkingpointes View Post
    Before I got out of construction again 4 months ago I was making 18$ an hour up from 10$ during 2011-2012. These people are retarded and if prices don't rise they won't have workers.

    This isn't the fault of mexicans even. Americans that can't compete with someone that doesn't even speak their mother language have more then just wage problems. How can an American with 10 years of experience have a trainee out work and compete with them.

    When I ran a construction business I never ever hired americans. They are usually fat, lazy, need 2 helpers and will make you pay all three of them. They are a waste and can't wait for reality to sink in. I'm tired of competing with guys that want to not compete and want unions and stuff. They are just lazy.
    Well, aren't you just a charmer?

    For the record, my drywall-installing brother was making $18 an hour plus benefits. In the '80's, before the illegal laborers ruined the labor market. And no, he wasn't union.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    There are places you can advertise for free. Craigslist, Patch, even local Facebook groups. Make friends with the company's that install new ones - work out a deal for referral fees when it's appropriate.

    I had hurricane shutters when I lived in Florida, and I *never* for a minute thought about who I should call if they didn't work. I venture that most people have no idea where to get service on those things.

    You could even start offering an inspection/maintenance service, so your customers can rest assured the shutters will work when they need them. That's what the AC guys do in their slow seasons.
    That reminds me--the plumbers I used at my old house had done small and larger jobs for me many times, and they were good. On a particularly large job where they had to dig up the yard and remove a length of pipe, it had turned out to be an easier job. The owner came to me and took a couple hundred off in exchange for me writing an online review on Google--he was looking to expand and he knew I was really happy with the job they'd done and their price.

    His crew was actually waxing poetic about my copper pipes and were showing me the video of how clean and pristine the waste pipe was. That kind of plumber will definitely get my repeat business along with free word of mouth and online reviews.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by talkingpointes View Post
    Before I got out of construction again 4 months ago I was making 18$ an hour up from 10$ during 2011-2012. These people are retarded and if prices don't rise they won't have workers.

    This isn't the fault of mexicans even. Americans that can't compete with someone that doesn't even speak their mother language have more then just wage problems. How can an American with 10 years of experience have a trainee out work and compete with them.

    When I ran a construction business I never ever hired americans. They are usually fat, lazy, need 2 helpers and will make you pay all three of them. They are a waste and can't wait for reality to sink in. I'm tired of competing with guys that want to not compete and want unions and stuff. They are just lazy.
    If you're working by the hour in construction then you're general labor.

    General laborers need to understand the "Big-Mac" theory on labor wages.

    If you're skilled and own your own tools you'll always be able to get by, getting ahead is work though..

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    If you're working by the hour in construction then you're general labor.

    General laborers need to understand the "Big-Mac" theory on labor wages.

    If you're skilled and own your own tools you'll always be able to get by, getting ahead is work though..
    If you have your own tools and vehicle is doesn't matter. This is a group of people who determine wages on feelings not on reality. I have seen guys sit home for months because they couldn't get 30$ an hour.(to install and do labor) Having to explain to them that there can only be so many supervisors is meaningless. In the flooring trade in particular it's a mess. I made 10$ an hour because of of my age mainly. I grew up learning flooring from my father and by 26 I was very experienced, but in this field you have a lead and laborers mostly.

    The only way out is to start your own business. I did that and discovered why these companies were not making any money and why their labor was so chronically impotent.

    My father is now head of sales at Express Flooring here in Phoenix,Az and they are just bullies and make money because of volume and they overcharge to the max and do everything they can to block out competition.

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