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Thread: Ron Paul: Israeli blockade of Gaza horrible & act of war, US morally responsible

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Debbie Downer View Post
    Gaza reminds me of the prison in panama where the prisoners are left 'free' inside the prison but are still caged in.
    You'll enjoy this video..."in prison, you'll get 3 nutritious meals a day and have a release date. Not the case for Gaza, because it's a concentration camp forever" Israeli officials have also been quoted as saying, "We'll put Gaza on a diet, aka starvation"

    http://www.shiatv.net/view_video.php...240764245cd4bd

    Tony Blair sister-in-law: Gaza world’s largest concentration camp




    Booth displays her Gaza-issued passport (Photo: AFP)
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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by RickyJ View Post
    2+2 = 4 and it always will. If I torture and kill you and your family for hours, how can I then claim it was all an accident? Please, stop trying to defend the indefensible, it is disgusting!

    You fail to see the motive? Are you blind, or just really dumb?

    They wanted to sink the ship and blame the Egyptians for it to get the USA to fight them! It is not the first or last time Israel has done this, and I am sure as long as they exist they will do it again!
    Foxnews covers the USS Liberty

    Last edited by nbruno322; 05-28-2013 at 09:58 AM.
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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Krzysztof Lesiak View Post
    Love you Doc Paul. Rand would never do this.

    Free Palestine, occupation is a crime.
    Were the founding fathers of the United States also criminals for their advocacy of the occupation of tribal territory?

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by PSYOP View Post
    Just waiting for Frank to show up and tell us why Ron Paul is wrong and how Israel is always right with their on-going genocide of the Palestinians. Praise the Lord and let these brown people be my sacrifice to you!
    That's not fair. He points out that the Palestinians aren't without problems too. People in the Middle East have been fighting forever. We just need to stop funding them all and get our noses out of it and mind our own business.
    ================
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  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by nbruno322 View Post
    Foxnews covers the USS Liberty, must see.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHNa5UZkFNs
    When there is data... the US government sees to it, any bad data that may incriminate Israel, is scrubbed "KISSINGER WIKILEAKS doc release"
    https://www.wikileaks.org/plusd/cabl...2-1183_b2.html

    Draft Date: 11 JUL 1974

    Subject: INFO ON INCIDENT WHEN ISRAELIS ATTACKED USS LIBERTY
    TAGS: OGEN, USS LIBERTY
    To: RYAN, WILLIAM J
    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post4963523
    Quote Originally Posted by FrankRep View Post
    Wow, yeah.

    Any information about the Israeli attack on the USS LIBERTY is wiped clean.

    20 messages, only 1 with data.


    "USS LIBERTY" WikiLeaks Search Query


    Date: 1976 September 1
    From: Israel Tel Aviv
    To: Department of State
    The embassy has no background information or previous communications in its files concerning the U.S. Claim against the government of Israel for damage inflicted upon the USS Liberty. We have not discussed it with the Israeli government and have no information about the claim to add to that in Ref B.

    Confidential
    Last edited by HOLLYWOOD; 05-27-2013 at 05:37 PM.
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  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    That's not fair. He points out that the Palestinians aren't without problems too. People in the Middle East have been fighting forever. We just need to stop funding them all and get our noses out of it and mind our own business.
    People keep repeating that but there is very little proof it is true.

    Yes,, there were minor differences. Crime and punishment. Tribal clashes..
    But for the most part,, People there got along.. until the "world powers" stepped in and stirred $#@! up.

    Palestine did not have any real problems until the late 1800s/early 1900s and the invention of Zionism.
    Zionists started trouble making then. And they were widely rejected by most devout Jews.

    They started colonizing and in the 1930 were aided by the Nazis,, from that time on,, they were extremely militant and violent.

    I don't know where this idea that the war has gone on for centuries.. but Jews Christians and Arabs had lived together in relative peace,, until the creation of the State of Israel.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
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    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
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  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    People keep repeating that but there is very little proof it is true.

    Yes,, there were minor differences. Crime and punishment. Tribal clashes..
    But for the most part,, People there got along.. until the "world powers" stepped in and stirred $#@! up.

    Palestine did not have any real problems until the late 1800s/early 1900s and the invention of Zionism.
    Zionists started trouble making then. And they were widely rejected by most devout Jews.

    They started colonizing and in the 1930 were aided by the Nazis,, from that time on,, they were extremely militant and violent.

    I don't know where this idea that the war has gone on for centuries.. but Jews Christians and Arabs had lived together in relative peace,, until the creation of the State of Israel.
    Yea because the Egyptians and the ottomans never fought over the area in the 1800's before Zionism came around, but I mean whats your statute of limitations on this? cause we can go way back.... before them we had the Crusades, Arab Invasions, Byzantines, Persians, Romans, Greeks.....list goes on. So Yes its been a very peaceful area. (Internet sarcasm) But I guess if you where to narrow down your "Pre Zionist good ole days" to I dont know 1860-1870 then yea I guess those days where great.

    Started colonizing with the help of the nazis? Now your just spewing random $#@!. Jews have had a continuous presence in the land since long before Islam, Christianity, or nazis. There where large jewish communities there long before the advent of modern Zionism. Jews that came in the 30's where not colonizing it with the nazis they where fleeing from the Nazis.

    Also when did legally purchasing land and moving onto your purchased property = colonialism. I guess jewish colonialism is that sneaky kind where they enter into mutually agreed upon contracts with you to buy your land. Thats how the spanish got the aztecs and the Incans...and how the scramble for africa happened right?

    Also whats your definition of relative peace? I could bring up the holocaust, pogroms, expulsions, ghettos, forced conversions, the inquisition and so on, but im sure youd narrow $#@! down and then say "No relative peace only in the arab world" as if the Dhimmis had full rights and werent persecuted....

    Anyway I would love to read the history sources youve been citing. Probably some reputable $#@! im sure.
    Last edited by gwax23; 05-27-2013 at 11:15 PM.

  10. #38

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    That's not fair. He points out that the Palestinians aren't without problems too. People in the Middle East have been fighting forever. We just need to stop funding them all and get our noses out of it and mind our own business.
    From 1517 when the Ottomans took it over until 1917 when the British and Zionists stuck their noses where they didn't belong Jerusalem was pretty damn peaceful. No major incidences despite Muslims, Jews, and Christians all living there.

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by sailingaway View Post
    I think he says the US has moral responsibility not 'is responsible', Israel is still the one acting, but there is tacit acceptance by the policy makers, and of course it is our armament, or money to buy it.
    What is the difference? By your implied measure I am only morally responsible for hiring someone to murder my nagging mother in law, not criminally so.

    If we have a hand in it, we are part of it. Even were that not the case, if the victims view it as such the results stand to be similar. We are, therefore, exposing ourselves so very unnecessarily to potentially grave hazards... and for what? I am neutral on Israel in the sense of their existence. If they can swing it, what the hell. But we should not be aiding and abetting them in any way. This last part, of course, makes me their enemy in their eyes because they invented the "you are either for us or agin' us" mantra. Neutrality is not allowed with them, making this philosophy one of pure and vitriolic tyranny. Anyone believing that Israel is some paragon of human freedom needs to step back, take a breath, and rethink that bit.

    Leave me the hell out of your business. Butcher and maim if that is what you feel you must do, but leave me out of it. I will not be donating to that cause, thankyouverymuch.
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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by compromise View Post
    The documentary is called "Ultra-Zionists". Guys in Gaza are not sanctioned by the Israeli government, which strongly opposes them. The people in the video are in the West Bank.
    Maybe you should give it a watch, I found it interesting.

    The "settlers" are encouraged to move there and are protected by the military.

    The military picks them up in an armed brigade to take them to and from the market.

    Some "settlers" are in complete denial of their perceived trespass while others boldly believe that its their chosen path. None of them would likley survive long without government protection.

    Please watch it before commenting on the title.

  15. #42
    I thought this was the video the OP was referring to, I just now realized it wasn't

    "Integrity means having to say things that people don't want to hear & especially to say things that the regime doesn't want to hear.” -Ron Paul

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  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by sailingaway View Post
    I thought this was the video the OP was referring to, I just now realized it wasn't

    It is different one but pretty much same message and subject/arguments.

  17. #44
    All you need to know... http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/...348774619.html

    Al-Nakba: Series on the Palestinian 'catastrophe' of 1948 that led to dispossession and conflict that still endures.
    July 20th, 1949 Ben-Gurion signed the Armistice deal with Syria, the same week he assembled 24 experts in geography, surveying, history, and the Torah. He told them, "Wipe Away all traces of Palestine and replace Palestinian names with Hebrew ones." And that's exactly what they did. Israeli maps reflect it to this day with erasing Palestine from; history, economics, and politics... Apparently US media complied over the half century+.

    Professor Israel Shahak says that everything related to the Palestinian Nakba(The Catastrophe) 400 villages and 11 cities were destroyed, 3,000 killed, 30,000 wounded/injured, over 700,000 Palestinian refugees on newly stolen lands by the Israeli military/government. With all that, also the expulsion of those Palestinians, is regarded by the Israel state as TOP SECRET classification. According to Israeli law, all documents and archives against 'National Interest' won't be released to anyone. That's why you can't access files related to refugees which land they owned/lived/worked upon, and any negotiations of such. Every single entity that has requested the documents from the Israeli government for over the past 60+ years has been denied.

    Sound familiar(FOIA denials) due to BS 'National Security'?

    So from the 1948-50, fast forward to 1974 and this WIKILEAKS cable:

    ISRAELI DEVELOPMENT IN JERUSALEM

    1974 December 31, 14:08 (Tuesday)

    Original Classification: SECRET / NOFORN

    "...JUDAIZATION OF ISLAMIC AND CHRISTIAN RELIGIOUS, CULTURAL AND ARTISTIC STRUCTURES."

    "...ISRAELIS ARE BENT ON TIGHTENING ISRAELI RING AROUND ARAB JERUSALEM BOTH AS FORTIFICATION IN MILITARY SENSE AND TO FORTIFY ISRAELI POSITION IN ANY NEGOTIATION ABOUT THE CITY."

    "...DIRECTOR OF ISRAELI HOUSING MINISTY'S JERUSALEM DISTRICT AS SAYING PURPOSE OF NEW PROJECTS WAS TO "FORTIFY" CITY BY CONTIGUOUS JEWISH SETTLEMENTS (ARTICLE FORWARDED TO DEPT. BY OM NOV. 11). FINALLY, MA'ALE ADUMMIM DEVELOPMENT WAS WIDELY SEEN IN ISRAEL AS RESPONSE TO RABAT SUMMIT: IN EFFECT, IF ARABS COMPLICATE NEGOTIATIONS THEY MUST EXPECT TO SEE ISRAEL TAKE MORE AND MORE TERRITORY."

    https://www.wikileaks.org/plusd/cabl...SA02202_b.html
    Last edited by HOLLYWOOD; 05-30-2013 at 06:06 AM.
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  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by gwax23 View Post
    There are no settlements in gaza. Also saying the blockade is an act of war is simply untrue. What was an act of war where the repeated rocket/missile attacks and cross border raids from gaza into Israeli territory that prompted the Blockade. This was all after Israel pulled out of Gaza.
    From the Encyclopedia Britannica:

    "blockade, an act of war by which a belligerent prevents access to or departure from a defined part of the enemy’s coasts."

    http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...69580/blockade

    Blockades have been seen as acts of war throughout all of history. Indeed once the ascensions of navies strong enough to do so, blockades often became the first act of war even before infantry invasion.

    You know what was the original "act of war" here though? Not the Gaza blockade. No, it was the military invasion of tens of thousands of Jews into lands that Palestinians had lived for thousands of years and the usage of force to steal that land from its owners, killing them when they refused to comply and stood for their property rights.
    “Maybe I forgot to mention something to you: I don’t believe in queens. You think freedom is something you can give and take on a whim. But to your people, freedom is as essential as air. And without it, there is no life. There is only darkness.” -Zaheer

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  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    From the Encyclopedia Britannica:

    "blockade, an act of war by which a belligerent prevents access to or departure from a defined part of the enemy’s coasts."

    http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...69580/blockade

    Blockades have been seen as acts of war throughout all of history. Indeed once the ascensions of navies strong enough to do so, blockades often became the first act of war even before infantry invasion.

    You know what was the original "act of war" here though? Not the Gaza blockade. No, it was the military invasion of tens of thousands of Jews into lands that Palestinians had lived for thousands of years and the usage of force to steal that land from its owners, killing them when they refused to comply and stood for their property rights.
    If you actually read my post and what I was responding to you would of known my point was that the blockade wasnt the act of war that sparked the conflict it was the repeated rocket attacks and cross border raids/kidnapping of Israeli Soldiers that started the conflict. This was all after Israel LEFT Gaza and removed 10,000 people from their homes in order for their to be peace. The blockade was a legitimate response to the continued violence.

    Jews have lived in the land for thousands of years as well. Longer than any other existing group. I would hardly call entering into legal contracts to purchase land and then settling on your newly purchased land an "Invasion" there were invasions though, in 1948 for example but it was by the Arab states not the Jewish state.
    Last edited by gwax23; 05-30-2013 at 10:26 AM.

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by gwax23 View Post
    If you actually read my post and what I was responding to you would of known my point was that the blockade wasnt the act of war that sparked the conflict it was the repeated rocket attacks and cross border raids/kidnapping of Israeli Soldiers that started the conflict. This was all after Israel LEFT Gaza and removed 10,000 people from their homes in order for their to be peace. The blockade was a legitimate response to the continued violence.

    Jews have lived in the land for thousands of years as well. Longer than any other existing group. I would hardly call entering into legal contracts to purchase land and then settling on your newly purchased land an "Invasion" there were invasions though, in 1948 for example but it was by the Arab states not the Jewish state.
    They purchased stolen land. The Arabs never gave it to them, or sold it. It was flat-out taken from them. I suppse you believe the bombing of the David hotel was coincidence too?

    Have you ever actually been to Israel or know family from there ? Do you know how hard it is to get back land from family that died ? They just bulldoze it and put it up for sale, that is hardly what you seem to describe, or subscribe to.

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by talkingpointes View Post
    They purchased stolen land. The Arabs never gave it to them, or sold it. It was flat-out taken from them. I suppse you believe the bombing of the David hotel was coincidence too?

    Have you ever actually been to Israel or know family from there ? Do you know how hard it is to get back land from family that died ? They just bulldoze it and put it up for sale, that is hardly what you seem to describe, or subscribe to.
    Purchased stolen land? Purchased stolen land from who? The arabs sold it to them. Prior to the establishment of the state of Israel jewish groups bought up huge tracts of land, parts of which would later become bustling metropolises such as Tel Aviv.

    The King David bombings have little to do with what we are talking about. It was condemned by most major Zionist organizations such as the Jewish Agency. But again I dont see the relevance of that bombing which was part of the 3 way civil war going on at the time between Jews Arabs and the UK. That attack targeted specifically British Forces.

    Ive been to Israel, I dont have family there, I do know its hard to get land back that was stolen. A friend of mine family used to live in hebron before the Massacre there. All his familys property was seized and they have never received compensation or where able to retrieve it back.

    But thats a minor story. More than 2 Million mizrahi and Sephardic jews in Israel who fled as refugees from Arab/Muslim countries have never received any compensation for their loss of property or suffering. (estimated at 300 Billion in todays US dollars) They unlike Palestinian refugees dont have a special UN agency devoted specifically to their needs nor where they granted a special refugee status that passes down from generation to generation. Though unlike their palestinian counterparts they settled into israel and have moved on unlike the Palestinian refugees who generations later are forced to be kept in refugee camps (Which are more like cities now) by their Arab brethren in order to use them as a political pawn against Israel. This was despite there being more jewish Refugees than palestinian refugees and the Jewish refugees coming from a multitude of countries speaking different languages and having different cultures.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_...slim_countries
    Last edited by gwax23; 05-30-2013 at 12:01 PM.



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by gwax23 View Post
    Purchased stolen land? Purchased stolen land from who? The arabs sold it to them. Prior to the establishment of the state of Israel jewish groups bought up huge tracts of land, parts of which would later become bustling metropolises such as Tel Aviv.

    The King David bombings have little to do with what we are talking about. It was condemned by most major Zionist organizations such as the Jewish Agency. But again I dont see the relevance of that bombing which was part of the 3 way civil war going on at the time between Jews Arabs and the UK. That attack targeted specifically British Forces.

    Ive been to Israel, I dont have family there, I do know its hard to get land back that was stolen. A friend of mine family used to live in hebron before the Massacre there. All his familys property was seized and they have never received compensation or where able to retrieve it back.

    But thats a minor story. More than 2 Million mizrahi and Sephardic jews in Israel who fled as refugees from Arab/Muslim countries have never received any compensation for their loss of property or suffering. (estimated at 300 Billion in todays US dollars) They unlike Palestinian refugees dont have a special UN agency devoted specifically to their needs nor where they granted a special refugee status that passes down from generation to generation. Though unlike their palestinian counterparts they settled into israel and have moved on unlike the Palestinian refugees who generations later are forced to be kept in refugee camps (Which are more like cities now) by their Arab brethren in order to use them as a political pawn against Israel. This was despite there being more jewish Refugees than palestinian refugees and the Jewish refugees coming from a multitude of countries speaking different languages and having different cultures.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_...slim_countries
    Some of the land was purchased, but that was about 6% in 1947, in 1948, the Zionists magically "owned" over 50% of the land. Are you claiming that it was all fairly bought and paid for? I believe there's only what, 10-15% left of Palestine now? That land was mostly seized, not purchased.

    The King David bombing was NOT condemned by Zionists--the leaders of Irgun (a Zionist/terrorist organization) went on to become heroes and even Prime Ministers. (Menachim Begin.) The Irgun was essentially the forerunner of the Likud party.

    The Jews who fled from Arab countries are entitled to compensation for their loss and suffering, just as the Palestinians are. You can not claim that one group deserves it and the other does not because of your bias. I've read (have to look for source) that those particular Jews were offered Palestinian land, which makes it a lot easier to move on when displaced. If they were still in refugee camps, that would be a big concern and it would be wrong.

    It's a big part of Hasbara to say that the Palestinians are being used by other Arab states as pawns, and maybe that's true--why does Israel not treat them fairly so hostile Arab states can not use them as pawns to increase violence?

    Perhaps Israel/Zionists are fond of the constant turmoil and exploit it? Nahhhhh....couldn't be.
    Those who want liberty must organize as effectively as those who want tyranny. -- Iyad el Baghdadi

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by amy31416 View Post
    Some of the land was purchased, but that was about 6% in 1947, in 1948, the Zionists magically "owned" over 50% of the land. Are you claiming that it was all fairly bought and paid for? I believe there's only what, 10-15% left of Palestine now? That land was mostly seized, not purchased.

    The King David bombing was NOT condemned by Zionists--the leaders of Irgun (a Zionist/terrorist organization) went on to become heroes and even Prime Ministers. (Menachim Begin.) The Irgun was essentially the forerunner of the Likud party.

    The Jews who fled from Arab countries are entitled to compensation for their loss and suffering, just as the Palestinians are. You can not claim that one group deserves it and the other does not because of your bias. I've read (have to look for source) that those particular Jews were offered Palestinian land, which makes it a lot easier to move on when displaced. If they were still in refugee camps, that would be a big concern and it would be wrong.

    It's a big part of Hasbara to say that the Palestinians are being used by other Arab states as pawns, and maybe that's true--why does Israel not treat them fairly so hostile Arab states can not use them as pawns to increase violence?

    Perhaps Israel/Zionists are fond of the constant turmoil and exploit it? Nahhhhh....couldn't be.
    The land that was owned was appropriated for a jewish state by the UN. That smaller state was invaded and the land it won following a successful defense was incorporated into the newly found state of Israel. I see nothing wrong with that. All the people that where in the new borders where given Israeli citizenship and if they owned property they continued to own property following the change in borders. Most countries have come about in their modern shape this way, yet I only see Israel condemned for it. Double standard.

    It was condemned by Zionists, the Jewish Agency condemned it. I just condemned it. Like I said it was one of many incidents during what could best be described as a 3 way civil war going on at the time. Many sides committed atrocities. Though Im still not sure what this incident in particular has to do with the land and property rights issue. Please feel free to enlighten me on that.

    I never claimed the Palestinians arent entitled to compensation. Show me where I said that. I simply said that it is wrong that an even larger group of refugees has been systematically ignored. If anyone does owe the palestinians compensation its the Arab states who caused the war and conflict, refused to grant them citzenship or leave the camps, and condemn them to continuing suffering. Which IS what is happening.

    No jews where offered "Palestinian Land" thats a pretty bold claim to be throwing out their wildly without a source. They didnt choose willing to leave their centuries old homes they where chased out by threats of violence, massacres, detention, discrimination and other terrible things. This is unlike the Palestinian refugees who fled because they where in a war zone, unlike frequent claims that "Evil jews violently evicted them from their land" which never happened, but did happen to jews in Arab countries.

    And the jews who came to israel from arab and muslim lands where in refugee camps Ma'abarot that where pretty pitiful.

    Who could possibly be fond of constant turmoil? Even us evil jews dont like that. I mean constant turmoil = less money. Why would Israel subjugate themselves to that and the reputation that comes with it? I mean sure its a national past time to oppress palestinians and all but the bottom line comes first.
    Last edited by gwax23; 05-30-2013 at 03:28 PM.

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by gwax23 View Post
    The land that was owned was appropriated for a jewish state by the UN. That smaller state was invaded and the land it won following a successful defense was incorporated into the newly found state of Israel. I see nothing wrong with that. All the people that where in the new borders where given Israeli citizenship and if they owned property they continued to own property following the change in borders. Most countries have come about in their modern shape this way, yet I only see Israel condemned for it. Double standard.

    It was condemned by Zionists, the Jewish Agency condemned it. I just condemned it. Like I said it was one of many incidents during what could best be described as a 3 way civil war going on at the time. Many sides committed atrocities. Though Im still not sure what this incident in particular has to do with the land and property rights issue. Please feel free to enlighten me on that.

    I never claimed the Palestinians arent entitled to compensation. Show me where I said that. I simply said that it is wrong that an even larger group of refugees has been systematically ignored. If anyone does owe the palestinians compensation its the Arab states who caused the war and conflict, refused to grant them citzenship or leave the camps, and condemn them to continuing suffering. Which IS what is happening.

    No jews where offered "Palestinian Land" thats a pretty bold claim to be throwing out their wildly without a source. They didnt choose willing to leave their centuries old homes they where chased out by threats of violence, massacres, detention, discrimination and other terrible things. This is unlike the Palestinian refugees who fled because they where in a war zone, unlike frequent claims that "Evil jews violently evicted them from their land" which never happened, but did happen to jews in Arab countries.

    And the jews who came to israel from arab and muslim lands where in refugee camps Ma'abarot that where pretty pitiful.

    Who could possibly be fond of constant turmoil? Even us evil jews dont like that. I mean constant turmoil = less money. Why would Israel subjugate themselves to that and the reputation that comes with it? I mean sure its a national past time to oppress palestinians and all but the bottom line comes first.
    Be honest. The Irgun was a Zionist organization. The Jews expelled from Arab states are not a larger group--and two wrongs don't make a right.

    The Arab states did not cause the war, they participated in it and tried to defend the Palestinians from the UN/Britain and Zionists. They were defending an Arab country.

    The King David bombing is one small piece of evidence that the Zionists used terror in order to conquer the land, it was hardly some civil event as you'd like to pretend. And the Jews who settled there without paying a native for the land did indeed steal it.

    Wow, you are so dishonest that it's not worth the time to even discuss this with you. Just look at your comment "I never claimed the Palestinians aren't entitled to compensation." So, if they are entitled to compensation, you acknowledge that they had something taken from them wrongly, at the least.

    I'm out of any conversation on this topic with you, it's ridiculous, you're dishonest, contradictory and you aren't even slightly convincing because you simply make no sense.
    Those who want liberty must organize as effectively as those who want tyranny. -- Iyad el Baghdadi

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by amy31416 View Post
    Be honest. The Irgun was a Zionist organization. The Jews expelled from Arab states are not a larger group--and two wrongs don't make a right.

    The Arab states did not cause the war, they participated in it and tried to defend the Palestinians from the UN/Britain and Zionists. They were defending an Arab country.

    The King David bombing is one small piece of evidence that the Zionists used terror in order to conquer the land, it was hardly some civil event as you'd like to pretend. And the Jews who settled there without paying a native for the land did indeed steal it.

    Wow, you are so dishonest that it's not worth the time to even discuss this with you. Just look at your comment "I never claimed the Palestinians aren't entitled to compensation." So, if they are entitled to compensation, you acknowledge that they had something taken from them wrongly, at the least.

    I'm out of any conversation on this topic with you, it's ridiculous, you're dishonest, contradictory and you aren't even slightly convincing because you simply make no sense.
    Did I say Irgun wasnt a Zionist organization? All I said was that specific act(King David bombings) was condemned by many major zionist organizations. If you disagree with this fact please say so if not then whats your point?

    800k-1,000,000 Jews fled Arab/Muslim countries. For the Palestinian refugees the highest figure I can find for them was 711,00. So again whats your point?

    According to your history the UK and Israel where bestest friends fighting arabs? Jesus I know people like to simplify complicated $#@! on these forums but that takes the cake. Why is everything have to be black and white, clear cut, this side that side. $#@!s more complicated then that. But one things for sure, saying the UK was on Israels side is a load of BS.

    There was no Arab country called palestine then, some could argue there isnt even a arab country called palestine now. So what exactly where these benevolent arab socialist dictatorships protecting? They invaded the Jewish held areas that where majority jewish populated and owned to defend...who exactly? The Zionists accepted the original UN partition plan the Arabs didnt and declared war....and lost terribly.

    If the king david bombing was targeting palestinians I guess your point would make sense. They attacked British forces. The colonial occupiers. Hardly a move evicted the "rightful owners of the land"

    Also when I say civil war that doesnt mean 'civil' ..... am I really explaining the difference to you. When i say theres a three way civil war going on pre 1948 that doesnt mean anything was 'civil' that means its $#@!ing violent.

    Now claiming Im dishonest is hilarious when every point you made has been based on an outright lie or a fallacy. You throw out claims like "jews where offered palestinian land thats why they left their home countries" without providing a bit of evidence and now im somehow dishonest? Also stop claiming I said this or that. We have a feature on this forum where you can quote prior posts. Use it and call me out on my supposed bull$#@! or shut up.

    Also its clear you dont read my posts. I said the palestinians where owed compensation by the Arab states. They lost property yes...because of the Arab states aggression and war mongering.

    Im glad to see I hit a nerve though. Its really quite entertaining. If you cant keep up the debate just admit youve lost. Just claiming im this or that because your full of $#@! is not proper way to end a 'civil' discourse (Not referring to a civil war, fyi)
    Last edited by gwax23; 05-30-2013 at 05:30 PM.

  27. #53
    i've been wondering how long of a blockade would an entity enforce until they realize it does not work...

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by gwax23 View Post
    The land that was owned was appropriated for a jewish state by the UN.
    Meaning what, precisely? Are we to believe that the UN holds the moral authority to forcibly expropriate property from people? If this is your position, onus rests with you to demonstrate how it is so. Methinks your task will be monumental, but let me not prejudge.

    That smaller state was invaded and the land it won following a successful defense was incorporated into the newly found state of Israel.
    The illegitimate state. Let us be precise and forthright. And for the record, all states are illegitimate for any of a number of fundamental reasons.

    All the people that where in the new borders where given Israeli citizenship and if they owned property they continued to own property following the change in borders.
    Whoopdee doo... given citizenship. I am sure the Arabs should be feeling very special about this. After all, of what have they to complain when the great state of Israel has deigned to grace them with such honor? Any attempt to suggest Arabs are on par with the rest in Israel is not even remotely credible.

    I don't care what they all do over there but this brand of bald-faced nonsense isn't even amusing. It's just stupid.

    Most countries have come about in their modern shape this way, yet I only see Israel condemned for it. Double standard.
    Most? Define most. At any rate, I condemn with generous equality all human rottenness. The Israelis get no special attention from me on that point. And to say they are the only ones condemned for this is not credible. I do not hear that many people praising the manner in which the Soviet Union was established, nor China, NAZI Germany, and on down a fair list.

    But if we accept the idea that we as a species are supposed to be evolving out of such barbarity, at least in terms of our mental perspectives on such matters, then the fact that Israel proceeds as it does is very much open to question. Personally, I don't buy the premise. I just think people love to talk the haughty talk and put on the haughty pretensions of being "evolved" while wringing their hands in angst as the world continues to fail to fulfill their expressed personal visions of what it should be. Such people would be lost were the world to suddenly become the peaceable Utopia for which they pine away with such pathos. They don't want the result, but rather the drama that arises with the guaranteed failure of achievement. But that's neither hear nor there, really. As to the Israelis, they are neither more nor less rotten than the rest of humanity. They are treacherous bastards so very much like the rest, and that renders them equally boring on the statistical whole.

    I never claimed the Palestinians arent entitled to compensation.
    Is this an oblique way of saying that they are?

    If anyone does owe the palestinians compensation its the Arab states who caused the war and conflict, refused to grant them citzenship or leave the camps, and condemn them to continuing suffering.
    So the Israelis are babes in the woods here, that they have no culpability for so many of the awful things that have plagued that land? This is the standard narrative in that situation and it is nonsense.

    No jews where offered "Palestinian Land" thats a pretty bold claim to be throwing out their wildly without a source. They didnt choose willing to leave their centuries old homes they where chased out by threats of violence, massacres, detention, discrimination and other terrible things.
    I hate to be the one to break it to you, but the persons of which you write here have all been dead the better part of 2000 years. Do you mean to imply that their descendants of 100 generations in the future are somehow entitled to those lands? If so, by what virtue? If you have a credible principle on which this expectation is based, please let me in on it so I can reclaim my family's barony. I would find 236,000 acres very helpful right about now. I suspect any attempt by me to lay claim to those lands would be met with wild rolling of eyes.
    Through lives and lives shalt thou pay, O' king.

    "It’s just interesting to note how constant government oppression can kill people’s fighting spirit." - Withur We




    Pray for reset.


  29. #55
    First I would like to say im going to ignore the argument regarding states vs anarchy. While a very interesting topic it is beyond the context of this discussion and would take far too much time. I am glad that you claim to hate all states equally. This is commendable. (not because im an anarchist but at least your trying to show you have no bias)

    Im not going to quote you with all my quotes but Ill number my responses to correspond with yours.

    1- To put that in better context. The land that was designated as part of the partition plan was already majority owned and populated by jews. But in any case just because they drew a line in the sand, it didnt change anything for the Arabs who continued to live there. If they owned property they still owned property after, if they didnt they still didnt.

    2- This point has to do with the concept of states in general and thus im ignoring it, but again id love to have this discussion elsewhere.

    3- They are on par, if anything they are better off because they dont have to be forced into servitude (err i mean conscription) like the rest of Israeli society (Jews, Druze etc) So thats a plus. Also Im not arguing Israel is perfect but Arabs in israel are far better off than in any other Arab country. Thats saying a lot. They have more freedoms, personal and economic in Israel than anywhere else in the Arab world. Further "Arabs" is a general term. Druze for example are much more integrated into Israeli society and on the whole are better socioeconomically. I make that point to show that the 'Arabs" are not this monolithic homogeneous group.

    4- Interesting points but its regarding the concept of the state.

    5/6- I combined your points due to their similarity.

    It depends how this supposed compensation plan is structured. Further this compensation would only be applicable to the still living refugees, not the special 'UN refugees' where refugee status is passed on generation to generation. There are 30-50k Palestinian refugees who are still alive by the regular definition of a refugee, and I believe some are eligible for some sort of compensation depending on a multitude of circumstances. But I believe the Arab states owe it to them not Israel..

    Also for reference I did a quick search for the conditions of palestinians in Arab countries. Just to show what Arab states put them through that hardly gets mentioned:

    "Over 400,000 Palestine refugees live in Lebanon, who are deprived of certain basic rights. Violating Human rights, Lebanon barred Palestine refugees from 73 job categories including professions such as medicine, law and engineering. They are not allowed to own property, and even need a special permit to leave their refugee camps. Unlike other foreigners in Lebanon, they are denied access to the Lebanese health care system. The Lebanese government refused to grant them work permits or permission to own land. The number of restrictions has been mounting since 1990"

    I would argue that the standard narrative is not that great for Israel. If someone watches anything other than Fox news they would know most media is anti Israel especially in Europe...most of the world really. With that said I dont put blame on the Israelis for the issue of Palestinian refugees. Israel was fighting a Defensive war against the odds that it happened to win. The refugees of the war are a direct consequence of the aggression of the Arab states not the state of Israel defending itself. Thus I would not put the cost and burden on the Israelis but rather the Arabs for initiating the violence.

    7- I think you took what I said out of context and misread it.

    When I brought up the Jewish refugees from Arab/Muslim lands the prior poster (Amy I believe) said that these jews only left their centuries old home because they where promised 'stolen' palestinian lands. She didnt back this bold statement up. Thats why I called out this nonsense and said the 1,000,000 Mizrahi and Sephardic jews who fled their centuries old homes in Arab and Muslim Lands (There presence their existing prior to Islam or Christianity thats how old these communities where) was not because they where enticed by free land but rather they where threatened with violence, massacres, and a whole lot of other things. Many cases they where outright kicked out and all property seized. The loss of the 1,000,000 Jewish refugees property amounts to 300 Billion US Dollars. They where not war refugees but where persecuted purely because they where jewish. Many where not even Zionists but they faced pogroms, riots, discrimination, persecution, deportations and massacres. They landed in Israel with nothing speaking a multitude of different languages and had many different cultures. The nascent state absorbed them in short order with little to no outside help (Not billions of dollars from the UN or a Special Agency like the Palestinians and still generations latter still living in camps) This is a stark contrast to the situation I described early in Lebanon. A country who shared similar if not identical culture and language with the majority of Palestinians. This is the case in Jordan, Syria and other Arab countries aswell.

    So I was not talking about a theological/religious concept of a promise land. Im referring to jews not from 2000 years ago but many who are very much alive (I know some) who lost their property and livelihoods and their plight is hardly addressed nor is compensation ever talked about for them.
    Last edited by gwax23; 05-30-2013 at 09:16 PM.

  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by gwax23 View Post
    1- To put that in better context. The land that was designated as part of the partition plan was already majority owned and populated by jews. But in any case just because they drew a line in the sand, it didnt change anything for the Arabs who continued to live there.
    Then why were they so upset about the whole deal? If it was all so wholesome and bunnies and light, why were the Irgun such frothing at the mouth terrorists? They were blowing $#@! up left and right in those days. The standard line, if only by implication, is that Arabs are just a bunch of stoopid sand knee-grows. It is yet another nonsensical tacit position that fairly well centers on the notion that if you're not exploiting resources and producing there is something inherently wrong with you and somehow such people (far more than just the Arabs) hold lesser rights. To wit: the theft of lands and butchering of those grass-skirt people who resist the thieves.

    For the record, there's a lot about Arab culture for which I find no charm, but that fact is irrelevant to the issue of their rights. They lived according to some order, for better or worse. Then all of a sudden a raft of uppity sumbitches show up and take over. At some point it doesn't matter whether the new bosses regard your position as having improved. You have proven just another in a long line of cheap-suit, low-rent usurpers and, ultimately, violent butchers. If you, and I mean YOU personally, are "one of us" as in freedom-oriented, then it should be a no-brainer to understand why the Arabs are pissed. It doesn't matter if you put them all in golden houses and sterling silver Audis. You didn't ask permission; you imposed your scheme of things upon others and guess what: people chafe against such things as a matter of human nature itself. It was not for the "Israelis" to pronounce the Arab condition improved. It was the Arabs who held the authority to assess their own circumstance and the verdict is pretty clear: they feel they have been given the short end of the stick... by the force of the sword. Tell me once again how they should be thankful for this?

    And the "partition plan"? Whose plan? I doubt the Arabs were consulted on this. The UN? Here's my opinion on that: $#@! the UN. Their imbecilic meddling has been responsible for more human misery than that of nearly any other human institution.



    3- They are on par, if anything they are better off because they dont have to be forced into servitude (err i mean conscription) like the rest of Israeli society (Jews, Druze etc) So thats a plus. Also Im not arguing Israel is perfect but Arabs in israel are far better off than in any other Arab country. Thats saying a lot. They have more freedoms, personal and economic in Israel than anywhere else in the Arab world. Further "Arabs" is a general term. Druze for example are much more integrated into Israeli society and on the whole are better socioeconomically. I make that point to show that the 'Arabs" are not this monolithic homogeneous group.
    I guess you and I must be operating from widely varying definitions of "par".

    5/6- I combined your points due to their similarity.

    It depends how this supposed compensation plan is structured. Further this compensation would only be applicable to the still living refugees, not the special 'UN refugees' where refugee status is passed on generation to generation. There are 30-50k Palestinian refugees who are still alive by the regular definition of a refugee, and I believe some are eligible for some sort of compensation depending on a multitude of circumstances. But I believe the Arab states owe it to them not Israel..
    Wow... so the fact that you appear to agree they are owed compensation implies with forceful directness that they were robbed, that their properties were taken from them and of necessity by force. the only proper compensation is restitution in full. That, of course, will not happen any time soon.

    Also for reference I did a quick search for the conditions of palestinians in Arab countries. Just to show what Arab states put them through that hardly gets mentioned:

    Irrelevant to the issue of Israeli treatment of the same people.

    I would argue that the standard narrative is not that great for Israel.
    Depends on which one. The standard pro-Israeli narrative is how they are the victims and the nazzy-old A-Rabs are a gunna git 'em and all that rot. It is true, that last bit, but not for the reasons stated or implied.

    If someone watches anything other than Fox news they would know most media is anti Israel especially in Europe...most of the world really.
    And why, exactly, do you think this is the case? It is not likely so because the Israeli government is so upstanding and righteous.

    Israel was fighting a Defensive war against the odds that it happened to win.
    No more defensive than that which the Arabs fought.

    The refugees of the war are a direct consequence of the aggression of the Arab states not the state of Israel defending itself.
    You cannot be serious.

    So I was not talking about a theological/religious concept of a promise land. Im referring to jews not from 2000 years ago but many who are very much alive (I know some) who lost their property and livelihoods and their plight is hardly addressed nor is compensation ever talked about for them.

    $#@! happens. $#@! happened. People need to get over it. I was denied my inheritance. Them were the breaks for me. I'm not whining about it. But let them all do as they wish. So long as they leave me the hell out of it, they can kill each other to the man if it pleases them. The lot of them are not worth the match with which to light them ablaze, for all the stupidity I witness emanating from that place from all sides. We have enough problems right here at home. Good luck to the rest, but you're on your own so far as I am concerned.
    Through lives and lives shalt thou pay, O' king.

    "It’s just interesting to note how constant government oppression can kill people’s fighting spirit." - Withur We




    Pray for reset.




  31. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  32. #57

  33. #58
    May have, would have, could have ambiguities.


    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...d15_story.html

    U.N. report on Gaza says Israeli forces may have committed war crimes


    Tear gas canisters are fired by Israeli troops toward Palestinians during a protest at the Israel-Gaza border fence, in the southern Gaza Strip, on Friday. (Ibraheem Abu Mustafa/Reuters)
    By Ruth Eglash

    February 28
    JERUSALEM — Israeli security forces may have committed war crimes and should be held individually and collectively accountable for the deaths of 189 Palestinian protesters in Gaza last year, according to a report published Thursday by the United Nations.
    The U.N. Commission of Inquiry criticized Israel’s rules of engagement and said the majority of the Palestinians killed “did not pose an immediate threat of death or serious injury to others when they were shot.”
    The report also noted that thousands of demonstrators have been maimed by Israeli snipers during the weekly protests along the border fence between Israel and the Gaza Strip.



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pK9LWhsd3QI


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRdKk00Uj5Y





    Recently this NYDN cover may have crossed the line:



  34. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    I'm an Evangelical, and a Baptist. I favor Ron Paul's foreign policy 100%.

    I know a lot of the church is deceived but not all of us...
    Not clear howw much is that maotivated by rapture / second coming ideologies but Tea Party leader Michelle Bachmann recently said 'Jesus will be coming back soon' and she's a strong pro Iraq war, pro Israel freign aid Evangelical.

  35. #60
    Gaza fights BACK...


    Islamic World Update
    Breaking: 12 Rocket sirens heard in Tel Aviv Israel

    Islamic World Update
    Acc to reports 2 Fajar rockets launched from Gaza to Tel Aviv iron-dome system engaged the rockets.


    https://twitter.com/aldin_ww/status/1106272747464916992


    https://twitter.com/IsraelBreaking/s...80024196464641


    Guy Elster
    BREAKING Tel Aviv opens shelters after Gaza's attack
    (like Gaza civilians?... wait. that's right... THEY don't HAVE any.)
    Last edited by goldenequity; 03-14-2019 at 06:08 PM.

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