Need Bitcoins? This ATM takes dollars and funds your account

[Tod]

The internet is worldwide. How can a government cut off your access to bitcoins at any time? You can store your bitcoins on a flash drive in your pocket, if you want. Perhaps the US government has the power to shutdown almost all of the internet on Earth (that is what you are saying). However, if that happened, we would have much larger problems. 10,000,000s of people would lose their jobs, for example.

Right now governments limit their citizens' access to the internet as they see fit. Governmental control of the internet is becoming more sophisticated and growing all the time. When bitcoins become big enough to attract much attention, they will find a way to shut it down and those who have relied on using a network that they don't control for their monetary system will be left out in the cold.

I envision a shutdown of the general internet that would be temporary with banks and businesses operating on a limited web for a specified time, just long enough to "starve out" those who rely on the web for black market transactions. All information could be filtered through gov't controlled screening systems that flag and stop any bitcoin traffic.

[ronpaulfollower999]

The Internet won't even let the government touch porn, I doubt bitcoins are in any danger.

[dannno]

I only had to start, I disagree right from 'why do you use it'. FRNs are backed by government and force of law and won't run off to the Bahamas tomorrow, quite as likely, from my perspective. It isn't what I want, but when I think of what I want, it has true intrinsic value, not just 'habit' behind it, we have that, already.

You should finish reading the link, nobody can run off to the bahamas with your bitcoins. I'm pretty sure it also says exactly what you said. The people who made bitcoin understand economics like we do.

[dannno]

sure, as long as people will accept them there will be a market. But twenty years from now, what assurance do you have now that people will want them at all? That is where intrinsic value comes in.

However, I was just asking some stuff I wondered about that kept me from being interested, to see if there was an easy answer, and there doesn't seem to be. I have no problem with people using whatever they want to for money if they can find someone to accept it.

Bitcoin might not be the greatest longterm economic store, but I'd argue it is a better bet than the dollar and while it might not hold its value as much as gold you can use it to buy things, globally, much more easily than gold. Also, if you wanted to transact anonymously from the government, avoid taxes, etc, it can be very valuable.

[hazek]

The thing that bothers me the most about bitcoins is that the government can at any time cut off my access to them, just as they can by locking my bank account. If I have money in my pocket, they have to actually arrest ME to cut it off. That means that I can buy things without the government's permission or knowledge. Although the gov't doesn't control bitcoins directly, they do control the internet upon which it operates.

This is so backwards that I'm simply baffled. How please, how can they cut off your access to your bitcoins? Are they going to shut off the internet to the entire country of people demanding their Facebook page? Or just you locally? Meaning you will be prevented from going to the nearest cyber caffee or for crying out loud your neighbor? And even if you don't have locally access to the internet doesn't mean you can't access Bitcoin.

For them to effectively cut you off from your bitcoins they'd need to shut down the internet ON THE ENTIRE PLANET. As long as there is even 1 country with internet you can go there and have access to your bitcoins but please be realistic. There is no way they would shut of 25% OF THE ECONOMY because of Bitcoin. Thinking that is ludicrous.

[hazek]

..they will find a way to shut it down..

Strawman fallacy.

Please, get real.

[Keith and stuff]

I envision a shutdown of the general internet that would be temporary with banks and businesses operating on a limited web for a specified time, just long enough to "starve out" those who rely on the web for black market transactions. All information could be filtered through gov't controlled screening systems that flag and stop any bitcoin traffic.

You are dreaming. The government hasn't even figured out a way to touch the silk road yet. Anyway, I don't recommend that people hold most of their money in bitcoins. It is a great system for people to use to buy and sell stuff worldwide without having to pay sales taxes, use taxes or currency conversion fees. That's what I recommend bitcoin for.

[well_met_sir]

People like gold, it is pretty, doesn't tarnish and is recognized for thousands of years. People run to it in economic peril. So it has value. a 'bit coin' isn't even something you can hold in your hand, as i understand it.

This is fine if some people want to do it, I just wanted to make sure I asked questions before I decided it wasn't for me.

What do you mean by "people like gold"? That's not a reason for it to be worth $1600/oz.

Gold is pretty, but there are many things that are pretty and they cost less than $1600/oz. Gold bars certainly aren't pretty enough to be worth $1600/oz. Prettiness is not the reason for gold's price.

Gold doesn't tarnish, and perhaps this is a tiny factor in why gold is so valuable. However it doesn't explain much. For one thing, why does silver have value as money? Silver is quick to tarnish. Bitcoins don't tarnish.

"and is recognized for thousands of years" Ahh now we're getting somewhere. Yes, recognition is essential for currency. Gold's long track record is something of value that bitcoin doesn't have yet. So this is a point in favor of gold. However we now have to ask, why did gold get this track record as money? How come other substances didn't? Why isn't bronze money?

The reality is that gold is valuable as currency for these reasons: scarcity, fungibility, convenience (divisibility, portability, etc...). You could say that these features make it intrinsically valuable as currency.

Bitcoin is also scarce, fungible, and convenient. Thus if it can be said that gold has intrinsic value then so does bitcoin. The same basis for gold's value is also the basis for bitcoin's value. Both are naturally money.

"a 'bit coin' isn't even something you can hold in your hand, as i understand it." You can't hold love in your hand either.

Gold and bitcoin are different in terms of convenience (one is better at being used when you don't have access to the internet, the other is easier when you do) and thus they are complements. It makes sense to own and use both.

[hazek]

You are dreaming. The government hasn't even figured out a way to touch the silk road yet.

Not to mention the Bittorrent traffic that pisses of the Hollywood lobby where billions are involved..

[Tod]

This is so backwards that I'm simply baffled. How please, how can they cut off your access to your bitcoins? Are they going to shut off the internet to the entire country of people demanding their Facebook page? Or just you locally? Meaning you will be prevented from going to the nearest cyber caffee or for crying out loud your neighbor? And even if you don't have locally access to the internet doesn't mean you can't access Bitcoin.

For them to effectively cut you off from your bitcoins they'd need to shut down the internet ON THE ENTIRE PLANET. As long as there is even 1 country with internet you can go there and have access to your bitcoins but please be realistic. There is no way they would shut of 25% OF THE ECONOMY because of Bitcoin. Thinking that is ludicrous.

Let's see. If I have to go to some country halfway around the world to get money to live on, how do I get to the country in the first place?

I agree that someone is being unrealistic, but I don't think it is me.

Bitcoins will be fine as long as they are used so little that they don't pose a serious threat to gov't.

As for the example of gov't controlling porn, I've not seen any serious effort by gov't to control it because it doesn't pose a threat to them.

[dannno]

I feel like everybody in this thread is talking past each other.

To the people who don't think bitcoin is valuable: You don't engage in enough of the type of transactions that would make bitcoin valuable for you. I don't own any bitcoin and never have, but I still can see the tremendous value in having a currency where you can make anonymous un-taxed transactions worldwide...

[hazek]

Let's see. If I have to go to some country halfway around the world to get money to live on, how do I get to the country in the first place?

I agree that someone is being unrealistic, but I don't think it is me.

Bitcoins will be fine as long as they are used so little that they don't pose a serious threat to gov't.

As for the example of gov't controlling porn, I've not seen any serious effort by gov't to control it because it doesn't pose a threat to them.

Ok. Forget about Bitcoin then and have a good one!

[tangent4ronpaul]

Why? I mean bitcoins have no more intrinsic value than FRNs and aren't backed by a government either.

I simply don't get them.

The technology represents an easy way to transfer funds across national borders, a process that currently can be slow and cumbersome with wire transfers. Bitcoin is less risky for online sellers than accepting credit cards, which can be disputed by customers. While not truly anonymous, it can be relatively private -- and is far more difficult for the U.S. or other governments to trace.
Unlike modern currency, which can be brought into existence at the whim of politicians or a central bank, leading to each note being devalued, the number of Bitcoins is governed by predictable mathematical algorithms. That's made Bitcoin popular among libertarians and other activists skeptical of the Federal Reserve; the Free State Project accepts payment for its summer festival in Bitcoins, for instance.

-t

[Danan]

I believe Sailing doesn't mean the same like most of us when she's talking about "intrinsic value" of bitcoins. It's true that all value is entirely subjective. Land is valuable because people want it, food is valuable only as long as people want to eat it, industrial metals are only valuable as long as producers like to use them and money is only valuable as long as people believe in its future purchasing power. Nothing is intrinsically valuable in the sense that it's a law of nature that people will always asign a positive price to it.

What Sailing likely refers to is that a portion of the value of gold comes from its physical features and its usability for more than transactions. In fact those properties are the sole reason why gold ever became money. It was a normal good on the market that, because of its high marketability, became money (see von Mises' regression theorem). Economists always struggled to explain the origin of money. The only reason why people value it today seems to be its projected future market value. But why did the first person ever accept it as money? Had gold not had any additional physical properties valued by people, it would have never become money. Only because it was already bought and sold on the market and demanded by many people could it attain this function.

Bitcoins seem to prove that this is in fact not a necessary requirement to become accepted as currency. The question remains if they are as stable as gold over long periods, though. While it's true that only a small portion of gold's value comes from its use in industrial products and as jewelery, it might be the case that exactly this is what makes it so secure. Everytime gold drops significantly in value, people can be assured that it will certainly never drop down to zero. Also, each time it devalues, for reasons concerning its function as money, its industrial demand goes up and stabalizes the price. These assurances are huge factors for a currency's stability.

What happens when Bitcoins rapidly lose value, for instance because speculators start selling huge amounts while at the same time shortening them? Everybody would want to get out of them as there is no floor in sight. Since all their value comes from their projected future purchasing power, they could become worthless in one speculative attack.

I'm still positive towards anything that takes away power from government money. But I wouldn't store wealth in bitcoins. I'd only use it like a PayPal account for online transactions with not to much excess wealth in them at any given time.

[muh_roads]

neither can a random scribble by a two year old, if you require it be of that two year old. But why would anyone want it? Give you something for it?

Random scribbles by two year olds are rare and is equivalent to the complex math algorithms found in bitcoin?

wat

[evilfunnystuff]

Back to the topic that atm is awesome.

Btc up to 32.51

[psi2941]

seriously, if you guys love bit coins so much, just join a bit coin forum. Sailingaway is right bit coins is just another form of FRN.

EDIT: Sailingaway i didn't want to post anything but this thread has become bash you thread alot of people here agree with you, most of the people here arguing how bitcoin is so more valuable and has intrinsic value are just bitcoin trolls.

they don't understand the fundamental concept of if it was made by man, it can be reproduced.

[Keith and stuff]

seriously, if you guys love bit coins so much, just join a bit coin forum.

Should we end all talk of silver, gold, shire silver, bitcoins, Liberty Dollars and BerkShares here? Wait, that's part of the reason this section of the forum exists. So clearly, we are able to talk about economics and sound money, especially as it deals with liberty, in this section of the forum.

If you don't want to talk about bitcoins and liberty, you don't have to do so. No one is forcing you to talk about liberty.

[evilfunnystuff]

seriously, if you guys love bit coins so much, just join a bit coin forum. Sailingaway is right bit coins is just another form of FRN.

You dont think discusing competeing currencies and their milestones should be discussed in the economic subforum on a libertarian message board?

Wheather you like it or not you will likely be hearing about it more and more everywhere its a pretty damn large economy at this point.

[green73]

seriously, if you guys love bit coins so much, just join a bit coin forum. Sailingaway is right bit coins is just another form of FRN.

EDIT: Sailingaway i didn't want to post anything but this thread has become bash you thread alot of people here agree with you, most of the people here arguing how bitcoin is so more valuable and has intrinsic value are just bitcoin trolls.

they don't understand the fundamental concept of if it was made by man, it can be reproduced.

Duly noted, citizen.

[muh_roads]

they don't understand the fundamental concept of if it was made by man, it can be reproduced.

Only as a competing currency can it be reproduced or if it was closed-source. A world community of open-source programmers would all need to accept the changes to a new bitcoin version that would allow btc to be double-spent.

It aint gonna happen.

[muh_roads]

I feel like everybody in this thread is talking past each other.

To the people who don't think bitcoin is valuable: You don't engage in enough of the type of transactions that would make bitcoin valuable for you. I don't own any bitcoin and never have, but I still can see the tremendous value in having a currency where you can make anonymous un-taxed transactions worldwide...

Thank you. We're on the verge of something amazing. A new currency developed for all the people of the world to use that is finite and outside of government control. This has never happened before.

The idea that people would want us to shut up about a system this awesome is ridiculous. THIS IS WHY WE ARE HERE! We want to share our excitement with others.

I wish people that didn't understand this system would ask questions instead of blindly crapping on what they don't understand. Anyone that does this feels no different to me than a closed-minded neocon that supports fiat-based wars without bothering to listen to what others have to say.

You don't need something physical to have value. Value is subjective. Whatever the people demand is what gives something value. Much like metals are used in industry...Bitcoin's industrial use is the ability to pay anyone without an intermediary knowing about it or controlling it. I think that is so $#@!ing amazing.

It is a stem cell currency. It can become any currency in the world or remain as it is.

[psi2941]

Should we end all talk of silver, gold, shire silver, bitcoins, Liberty Dollars and BerkShares here? Wait, that's part of the reason this section of the forum exists. So clearly, we are able to talk about economics and sound money, especially as it deals with liberty, in this section of the forum.

If you don't want to talk about bitcoins and liberty, you don't have to do so. No one is forcing you to talk about liberty.

You dont think discusing competeing currencies and their milestones should be discussed in the economic subforum on a libertarian message board?

Wheather you like it or not you will likely be hearing about it more and more everywhere its a pretty damn large economy at this point.

I don't care about you having your competing currencies, if you want to promote bit coins that all fine by me. The thing that really bothers me about you and your wakos, is your trying to pump people about your worthless bits on a "Sound money" forum, bits have no value, its just bunch of 1s and 0s and frankly if your that dumb enough to buy it be my guest. Its like your hating one fiat currency so your switching to another fiat currency. The main problem comes when someone new to the sound money comes along this forum trying to learn they had been had by the federal government and we have bunch of bit coin fan boys trying to pump the new guy with worthless bits. I rather have you guys pump him on dirt standard at least he can value the dirt dollar based on dirt vs what your electronical bits?

Only as a competing currency can it be reproduced or if it was closed-source. A world community of open-source programmers would all need to accept the changes to a new bitcoin version that would allow btc to be double-spent.

It aint gonna happen.

People "claim" that the bitcoin system is "closed-source" fine lets for the sake of argument it is unhackable as in creating your own bits and injecting it into the system. There will always be exploits, hacks, malwares, virus, and anything you can think of trying to undermine the bit system. you not smart enough to say for sure the bitcoin system is 100% safe. There will always some smarter guy trying to figure out how to A. profit from it B. disruptive it just for kicks. A prime example is the MX gold or something getting hacked and people loosing all their bit coin. There WILL ALWAYS BE A WAY TO EXPLOIT A SOFTWARE/PROGRAM. MX gold maybe the first but it will not be the last.

[Tod]

If I did exchange dollars for bitcoins, I'd have a problem. None of the places I shop at accept bitcoins and probably 99.9% of them have never even heard of bitcoins.

Just today I had this exchange with a local merchant who is interested in the "buy local" and "slow money" movements after I saw a facebook post about accepting major credit cards:

Me:

I'm surprised you guys are accepting major credit cards since that means that multi-national corporations are able to demand a share of your business.

Have you considered maybe promoting an alternative currency such as Bitcoin? (tough, as probably not too many people in our area are familiar with Bitcoin or other alternatives)

Note: "not too many people in our area" was being extremely generous. I'll bet not one in 10,000 people would be more accurate.

Her:

We were credit card free for over 6 months, and it killed our sales. 90% of our sales are via credit cards, so as a retailer, we have little to no choice. I've never heard of Bitcoin myself.

[Ignostic?]

That was an impressively ignorant post.

"Your that dumb" ...heh

You should probably look up the definition of fiat currency. I don't think it means what you think it means.

[jtap]

This thread makes me want to respond and not respond at the same time. I guess responding with a useless post will save me time and be the middle ground. People asking questions in here need to do research and try to understand because otherwise it just feels like one attempt to start an argument after another.

[ronpaulfollower999]

I don't care about you having your competing currencies, if you want to promote bit coins that all fine by me. The thing that really bothers me about you and your wakos, is your trying to pump people about your worthless bits on a "Sound money" forum, bits have no value, its just bunch of 1s and 0s and frankly if your that dumb enough to buy it be my guest. I

"bits have no value"

So why do people exchange goods and services for Bitcoins? Clearly, someone finds value in them.

[DonovanJames]

I dumped all my savings into BTC back in December after Half Day

Best investment return ever

[Danan]

Can anybody explain to me how Bitcoins would survive a speculative attack by major players, the way I outlined it above? This has been done to many currencies and assets, so if you want to educate yourself about the technicalities you can certainly do that.

The main difference is that Bitcoins have no floor whatsoever. Once gold goes below a certain price, its industrial demand goes up and stabalizes it. And the very fact that this is always to be expected scares speculators away from massive attacks. What secures bitcoins? Its value is only projected future purchasing power. Once this starts to fall big time I see no reason why anybody would want to hold their coins. Then it's all like, "If you panic, panic first!"

That being said I still find them potentially useful for online purchases. I wouldn't store any excess wealth in Bitcoins, though.

[psi2941]

"bits have no value"

So why do people exchange goods and services for Bitcoins? Clearly, someone finds value in them.

intrinsic value
if you want to argue that bits do have values, so does FRN.

I dumped all my savings into BTC back in December after Half Day

Best investment return ever

Like peter schiff says, just because its valuable today it doesn't mean it will be valuable tomorrow. It like people buying homes in 2006.