A blimp is a BAD IDEA - here is why

[Matt Collins]

I've never tried to portray myself as relevant, Matt. I'm a grassroots activist and event organizer, that's it.

Well you should try to become relevant. The liberty movement needs people who are relevant.

You claimed in a now closed thread, that you are an authority on matters such as these because you are an instructor on campaigning, and an advisor to candidates. When I challenged you to prove it, and suggested that you PM me if you didn't want your verification to be made public, you took me up on it - except it was all for show - you never proved a blasted thing. All you did was try in vain, ONCE AGAIN, to get me to accept your "friend request" on FB.

Yes, if I am going to share trusted details with people, I want to know who I'm talking too, which is why I wanted to see your FB profile. But you weren't interested in extending any trust, so neither am I.

[Matt Collins]

What does it benefit a man if he gains the whole world (or a nomination) but forfeits his soul in the process?

Again, you are confused. One doesn't have to forfeit one's soul in order to shape one's message or win an election. The two are not mutually exclusive.

[Matt Collins]

Ain't it strange how Teh Collinz seems to forget all about how "correlation is not causation" when it suits his purposes?

No.... he is polling well because his message is well received... The poll isn't about name recognition. nothing hypocritical about that.

[Matt Collins]

This has been shown over and over by grassroots campaigns, some publicized here like Gunny's and some that aren't like my county commissioner friend that won because of poll workers and door-to-door activism.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-texas-sharpshooter


Gunny getting elected was a fluke. Yes he worked hard and did some smart things along the way, but it was highly unlikely for him to win that seat, He positioned himself well, but mostly just happened to be in the right place at the right time. And if I recall, I think he may have been unopposed in the primary, or at least didn't have a serious challenger.... Leaning on large swaths of crossover votes in a primary is a really bad plan.


Besides, Republican presidential primaries are a bit of a different animal than a state leg campaign.

[Occam's Banana]

Ain't it strange how Teh Collinz seems to forget all about how "correlation is not causation" when it suits his purposes?

No.... he is polling well because his message is well received... The poll isn't about name recognition. nothing hypocritical about that.

quod erat demonstrandum

[Matt Collins]

I seem to recall that he said more than once that the campaign wasn't even running to win, but just to get Ron'a name and message out.

In 2007 Ron was running to spread a message and raise some ideas. But winning an election doesn't necessarily mean getting elected. I would say that Ron won in both 2007 and 2012 even though he didn't get elected.

It might be true that spending money on the blimp didn't earn us enough votes-per-dollar spent, but we still got more media airtime than the official campaign did with their ad buys, because they didn't buy any.

Yes in 07 the ads sucked, no one disagrees.


But getting airtime is not the way to win an election. It's about direct marketing, not mass marketing:

1- identify likely voters
2- segment those likely voters
3- target those voters


But of course you know this because you've been involved with many campaigns, including Congressional/Senatorial campaigns and a Presidential campaign, right?

[devil21]

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-texas-sharpshooter

Oh goody I get to neg rep Collins too!

Gunny getting elected was a fluke. Yes he worked hard and did some smart things along the way, but it was highly unlikely for him to win that seat, He positioned himself well, but mostly just happened to be in the right place at the right time. And if I recall, I think he may have been unopposed in the primary, or at least didn't have a serious challenger.... Leaning on large swaths of crossover votes in a primary is a really bad plan.

Being in the right place at the right time with the right message and the right method is exactly how a candidate wins. That is not a 'fluke'. That is effective politics. Gunny won because he ran the right campaign. Surely you're not suggesting that running a candidate at the wrong time, in the wrong place is a better strategy?

Besides, Republican presidential primaries are a bit of a different animal than a state leg campaign.

I already cut you off before you said that. No, it's precisely the same, except for the money angle of PACs and Zionist billionaires like Adelson. Would you rather have a grassroots effort that wins votes or Adelson's blood money?

It sounds to me like Collins has bought into the Protocols method of winning elections. Forget morality and winning for the right reasons. It's better to try to win by treating everyone like sheep to be herded.....and if you still lose, at least you got rich in the process

[phill4paul]

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-texas-sharpshooter

and another rep. burn. At this rate in 2016 your reputation will be spent. New joins for Rand's campaign will know better than to pay you any attention.

[cajuncocoa]

Again, you are confused. One doesn't have to forfeit one's soul in order to shape one's message or win an election. The two are not mutually exclusive.

No, you are the one who is confused. You're having trouble keeping up. I didn't say it had ​to be done that way, that it's mutually exclusive. Heck, most politicians don't have a soul to sell. But it looked to me that Ron Paul would prefer to risk losing than to say something just to get elected. Hence, my point...that it didn't matter to Ron that he didn't get elected/nominated if that was the price to pay.

[cajuncocoa]

Well you should try to become relevant. The liberty movement needs people who are relevant.

Deb IS relevant, but why are you ​here?

[Anti Federalist]

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-texas-sharpshooter

Gunny getting elected was a fluke.

Yes he worked hard and did some smart things along the way, but it was highly unlikely for him to win that seat, He positioned himself well, but mostly just happened to be in the right place at the right time. And if I recall, I think he may have been unopposed in the primary, or at least didn't have a serious challenger.... Leaning on large swaths of crossover votes in a primary is a really bad plan.


Besides, Republican presidential primaries are a bit of a different animal than a state leg campaign.

The very same thing could be said of Rand winning the KY Senate race.

Another neg rep.

[phill4paul]

You cannot give Reputation to the same post twice. Or in this case neg rep.

Howevwer, this...

Gunny getting elected was a fluke.

I'll just hunt down any old post and neg it so things equal out.

rep. burn.

[devil21]

Is Collins essentially suggesting that Rand has to sell out to Adelson and the media to get elected and a lil bit of vote play when necessary to win? Sounds like it. This is a blimp thread but we know it's not about the blimp or Ron.

If that's the meat of your argument then at least own it, 'World Wide'.

[liberalnurse]

Originally Posted by Matt Collins

Gunny getting elected was a fluke.

This is it for me. My first negative rep ever and I can think of no one more deserving. I don't want to risk being banned so I'll just let it go at that. POS

[acptulsa]

Uh no, exactly the opposite... Nice try at lying though...

You were busy changing the rules while Preibus was trying to get us to play by the rules?

You dont have to buy FNC, you just have to know how to handle them as Rand does. And you have to also do direct marketing as well.

No, what you have to do is ensure that if Fox tells a bunch of lies about you, Fox will discredit itself instead of discrediting you.

And a bunch of crazy irreverent grassroots truthmongers are about a hundred times more useful to you for that than a dozen hidebound would-be campaign moguls and official apologists who don't know who their best assets are and go around telling them the hard work they're doing and can see is effective is less important than going around judging them is.

Again, you fail to understand how this works.....

Oh, do I? And as much communication as we've had you continue to fail to understand just what I do and don't understand.

it is much easier to convince people already going to the polls to vote for your guy, than it is to convince people to go to the polls to vote for your guy. The goal is to get elected, and you don't do that by chasing after people who are not likely to vote.

So you have told me. And told me. And told me. But in fact the people already going to vote in the Republican primaries were very easy to scare, and with a little help from Fox, Ron Paul scared the hell out of them. While the people we scrounged up were mostly scared they might have to vote for someone other than Ron Paul.

Don't know how to break this to you, Mr. Personality, but converting the likely Republican primary voter didn't work and it wasn't our fault. You're beating a dead horse that just lied there through two elections, but which you swear is about to jump up and win the race. Meanwhile, our efforts did work, but not fast enough. And while you and your gang will claim complete credit for Rand's success, you will not be able to--and the credit snatchers will make no effort to--separate the fruits of our efforts from Rand's greater ability to reassure those Fox tried to frighten.

Not at all... if you hope to win an election, then you have to market to voters. It's really just that simple.

No, my goal is to get people to quit doing immature and ineffective things and to learn how to win and achieve victory (sign waves, marches, and blimps aren't it).

My goal is to get you to quit being immature and do something--anything--except arrogantly filling this board with negativity. Because beating the spirit out of your horses is most effective--the single most effective way to sabotage yourself, in fact.

In 2007 Ron was running to spread a message and raise some ideas. But winning an election doesn't necessarily mean getting elected. I would say that Ron won in both 2007 and 2012 even though he didn't get elected.


Yes in 07 the ads sucked, no one disagrees.

Way to move the goalposts. Way to admit that when it comes to 'raising some ideas' the campaign, with its sucky commercials, did nothing until we shamed the media into pointing cameras and microphones at Ron Paul--He Who Must Not Be Named--and the blimp was an integral and important part of that.

If you're going to move the goalposts--if winning isn't necessarily winning all of the sudden--you should move th goalposts to a position you can actually defend. Like, for instance, 'getting a check is winning and being one of the suckers who donates to make that check good is losing.' Now that is a position you and Benton can defend.

But that's the Pelosi factor You can throw all the facts at him you want, but he never blinks. He just makes up some new reason to be right.

.

Give Pelosi some credit. At least she makes up something. It might not make sense and there will be nothing honest about it, but she says something.

She doesn't just stand there and say out loud, "http//www.yourlogicalfallacyistoohardtofigureoutsoipicke dthisentryatrandom.com

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-texas-sharpshooter


Gunny getting elected was a fluke. Yes he worked hard and did some smart things along the way, but it was highly unlikely for him to win that seat, He positioned himself well, but mostly just happened to be in the right place at the right time. And if I recall, I think he may have been unopposed in the primary, or at least didn't have a serious challenger.... Leaning on large swaths of crossover votes in a primary is a really bad plan.


Besides, Republican presidential primaries are a bit of a different animal than a state leg campaign.

Keep your 'tired non-reply website link' posts and your mortal insults to established and highly respected members separate.

Someone will be wanting to negrep both individually, and combining that much negativity and unwarranted arrogance in a single post makes that difficult.

Now if you all will excuse me. I have an important turkey to roast.

[cajuncocoa]

Gunny getting elected was a fluke.

Neg rep.

[jmdrake]

Aw cripes. Where do I start?

If you're not the candidate you like the ability to "shape the message." So as if you are working in the campaign your job is to find people most responsive to your candidate's message since you can't shape it.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white

huh?

Okay. Typo on my part. What I was saying is: "If you're not the candidate you like the ability to "shape the message." So as if you are working in the campaign your job is to find people most responsive to your candidate's message since you can't shape it."

And I don't know why this isn't obvious to you. If Ron Paul was stridently pro war, and he was and is, then marketing him only to people who were the last bastion of support for the Iraq war (70% support among Republicans as last as 2012 if I recall correctly) was stupid.

You're preaching to the choir. One of the arguments Matt and I had often during the 2012 cycle was over my insistence that we needed more than "likely Republican voters" to win. And I put my money where my mouth was by reaching out to Democrats with the simple message that "Obama is running unopposed. You might as well vote for the antiwar republican in the primary." I had moderate success winning over at least 8 voters. Granted they were all family members but they were voters Ron wouldn't have had otherwise. In 2016 the Democratic primary will be contested so I'm not sure what strategy to use.

Person-to-person that might work (personal sales are always the most effective) but there is no way that I know of to mass market that for a Republican primary.

Right. And person-to-person sales is the work of the GRASSROOTS! It's the main campaigns job to do the mass media marketing. But the sad fact is that in 2008 and 2012 the grassroots produced better TV commercials too. In 2008 we got the unproductive "He's catching on I'm telling you" TV ad. In 2012 we got the counterproductive "Let's bash Gingrich and Santorum for pointing out that Romney is an 'etch-a-sketch' flip flopper candidate instead of attacking Romney for being a flip flopper" ad. If the main campaign had done its job right and encouraged the grassroots to do the very type of "person to person sales" that I was doing and that you and others criticized me for promoting, there might have been a different outcome.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-texas-sharpshooter


Gunny getting elected was a fluke. Yes he worked hard and did some smart things along the way, but it was highly unlikely for him to win that seat, He positioned himself well, but mostly just happened to be in the right place at the right time. And if I recall, I think he may have been unopposed in the primary, or at least didn't have a serious challenger.... Leaning on large swaths of crossover votes in a primary is a really bad plan.


Besides, Republican presidential primaries are a bit of a different animal than a state leg campaign.

Okay. Are you trying to alienate people? You getting as far as you did in the Davidson County TN GOP was a "fluke" in that we caught them by surprise and with their pants down. They're on to us now and we can't repeat that. As others have pointed out Rand winning in KY was a "fluke." MSNBC was cheerleading Rand and Fox was quite friendly too him as well. Thus he had mainstream media behind him. That's not going to happen again at least not to that extent. He might remain on friendly terms with Fox but BSNBC is already gunning for him. And the only way to beat that is through the type of person-to-person let's convince independents and disgruntled dems to support Rand outreach that you seem to be dismissing. Rand himself sees the need to engage people other than "Likely Republican primary voters" now as opposed to waiting for the general election. I'm glad he didn't get your memo.

[cajuncocoa]

Okay. Are you trying to alienate people?

Yes. Yes, he is.

[ChristianAnarchist]

Well, back to the blimp... I think it was a great idea because it was unique and something that has become a symbol of the Re3voLution. I gave $$ towards the blimp and even though the timing was bad, the weather was bad and the exposure wasn't that good, it became a rallying point. Besides, I put a picture of it on the trunk of the Ron Paul Liberty Corvette!!

[Deborah K]

Well you should try to become relevant. The liberty movement needs people who are relevant. Yes, if I am going to share trusted details with people, I want to know who I'm talking too, which is why I wanted to see your FB profile. But you weren't interested in extending any trust, so neither am I.

This is a complete crock of $#@! and you know it. I've been vetted, Matt. You're lying, as usual, to try to cover your ass.

[Matt Collins]

You were busy changing the rules while Preibus was trying to get us to play by the rules?

No I was not directly involved in much of the RNC activity....

But in fact the people already going to vote in the Republican primaries were very easy to scare, and with a little help from Fox, Ron Paul scared the hell out of them.

And our own marketing and PR can help counter that.

Don't know how to break this to you, Mr. Personality, but converting the likely Republican primary voter didn't work and it wasn't our fault.

In 2007 it wasn't done right... in 2012 it was much better, but there were still things to have been improved upon. But as I have said, if you are going to win a Republican primary, the only way to do that is to ensure that Republican voters are going to vote for you.

My goal is to get you to quit being immature and do something--anything--except arrogantly filling this board with negativity. Because beating the spirit out of your horses is most effective--the single most effective way to sabotage yourself, in fact.

Actually I'm not: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...ight=work+rand

[Matt Collins]

That is not a 'fluke'. That is effective politics. Gunny won because he ran the right campaign. Surely you're not suggesting that running a candidate at the wrong time, in the wrong place is a better strategy?

No, but notice that Gunny didn't get re-elected.

[Matt Collins]

This is a complete crock of $#@! and you know it. I've been vetted, Matt. You're lying, as usual, to try to cover your ass.

Thank you for proving my point.

[Matt Collins]

If the main campaign had done its job right and encouraged the grassroots to do the very type of "person to person sales" that I was doing and that you and others criticized me for promoting, there might have been a different outcome.

It did, in the target states.

Okay. Are you trying to alienate people? You getting as far as you did in the Davidson County TN GOP was a "fluke" in that we caught them by surprise and with their pants down. They're on to us now and we can't repeat that. As others have pointed out Rand winning in KY was a "fluke."

Being positioned to take advantage of the right environment definitely makes things easier.

MSNBC was cheerleading Rand and Fox was quite friendly too him as well. Thus he had mainstream media behind him.

Here is a secret... that was all due to Jesse. In fact that is what changed my mind about Jesse is that he was able to score Rand some really good media.

Rand himself sees the need to engage people other than "Likely Republican primary voters" now as opposed to waiting for the general election. I'm glad he didn't get your memo.

Rand is painting himself as the only guy who can beat Hillary, which of course helps him win the primary. Almost none of these individuals he is outreaching to will cross over to vote for him in the Republican primary.

[acptulsa]

No I was not directly involved in much of the RNC activity....

Why do you call people liars yet refuse to be clear about what specific statement they made you allege is untruthful?

Thank you for proving my point.

Yes, thank you.

__________________________________________________ ________________

this space for rent

Is that space between any ears you might be familiar with?

Tell you what. Get back to us when you've been sold to the highest bidder. You'll have a whole new set of firmly-held beliefs then; why should we refute both sets of fallacies?

[jjdoyle]

This is a complete crock of $#@! and you know it. I've been vetted, Matt. You're lying, as usual, to try to cover your ass.

Where does Matt Collins teach?

[acptulsa]

Why do you call people liars yet refuse to be clear about what specific statement they made you allege is untruthful?

Just listen to the Collins crickets chirp.

Toss out a few vague innuendos, pretend they're substantive charges, and run like hell.

[Occam's Banana]

That is not a 'fluke'. That is effective politics. Gunny won because he ran the right campaign. Surely you're not suggesting that running a candidate at the wrong time, in the wrong place is a better strategy?

No, but notice that Gunny didn't get re-elected.

What I notice was that Gunny was gerrymandered out of office.

So it looks like you're gonna hafta move those goalposts again ...

[angelatc]

No, it means you shape your message so that the audience doesn't boo you.

Ah, the beautiful irony of this...I'm verklempt....it's art.

[acptulsa]

Ah, the beautiful irony of this...I'm verklempt....it's art.

What--you don't believe in 'shaping' the Gospel to better suit a room full of bloodthirsty neocons?

Or are you more impressed by the chutzpah inherent in pretending that you saw it coming that a room full of Republicans would boo the words of Jesus and implying that you could have prevented it?