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Thread: Why not debtors' prison?

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  1. #1

    Why not debtors' prison?

    My prediction : people here will say because there's a system wide conspiracy to either bait stupid people into debt, or fraudulently force people into debt they'd never incur voluntarily. But hopefully people agree that if debts were voluntarily created, then prisons would be an appropriate punishment when debts can't be expected to be paid back (and bankruptcy discharging debts makes a mockery of responsibility)

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/26/op...ison.html?_r=0



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  3. #2
    Government shouldn't be in the business of enforcing people's contracts. If you make a bad deal and end up being unable to collect what is owed you, that is YOUR problem, not mine. Fraud would be another matter and I approve of the use of force to obtain restitution in those instances. But breech of contract? That's a private matter. Be more careful next time you lend your money.
    The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.

    "Who would be free, themselves must strike the blow." - Byron

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  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Acala View Post
    Government shouldn't be in the business of enforcing people's contracts. If you make a bad deal and end up being unable to collect what is owed you, that is YOUR problem, not mine. Fraud would be another matter and I approve of the use of force to obtain restitution in those instances. But breech of contract? That's a private matter. Be more careful next time you lend your money.
    how is breaching contract any less the government's business than fraud?

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Tpoints View Post
    how is breaching contract any less the government's business than fraud?
    Breech of contract is not deliberate dishonesty used to trick people out of their property. It is simply failure to keep a promise. Fraud is a kind of theft, a predatory action. Breech of contract is just business. Made a bad deal? Too bad for you.
    The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.

    "Who would be free, themselves must strike the blow." - Byron

    "Who overcomes by force, hath overcome but half his foe." - Milton

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Acala View Post
    Breech of contract is not deliberate dishonesty used to trick people out of their property. It is simply failure to keep a promise. Fraud is a kind of theft, a predatory action. Breech of contract is just business. Made a bad deal? Too bad for you.
    so how do you prevent a person from committing fraud and calling it innocent breach? or should we?

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Tpoints View Post
    so how do you prevent a person from committing fraud and calling it innocent breach? or should we?
    You prove up fraud with evidence, like any other crime. If you can prove that a person deliberately lied about some material fact in order to induce you to part with your propery for their benefit, and you actually did so rely, it's a fraud.
    The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.

    "Who would be free, themselves must strike the blow." - Byron

    "Who overcomes by force, hath overcome but half his foe." - Milton

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Acala View Post
    Breech of contract is not deliberate dishonesty used to trick people out of their property. It is simply failure to keep a promise. Fraud is a kind of theft, a predatory action. Breech of contract is just business. Made a bad deal? Too bad for you.
    The amount of investigation required to find mens rea (criminal intent) prior to a loan agreement would be too onerous (if possible at all) for the DAs office to even attempt. Where would the funds come from to saddle the criminal justice system with the additional role of debt collector? How much scratch are you willing to put out, Mr. Points, so BoA doesn't lose out? Wait...haven't we bailed out the banks enough?

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    The amount of investigation required to find mens rea (criminal intent) prior to a loan agreement would be too onerous (if possible at all) for the DAs office to even attempt. Where would the funds come from to saddle the criminal justice system with the additional role of debt collector? How much scratch are you willing to put out, Mr. Points, so BoA doesn't lose out? Wait...haven't we bailed out the banks enough?
    yeah, only big rich banks are ever creditors.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Acala View Post
    Be more careful next time you lend your money.
    Yep, lenders need to be responsible too if they are going to attempt to profit through an investment like lending.
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  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Acala View Post
    Government shouldn't be in the business of enforcing people's contracts. If you make a bad deal and end up being unable to collect what is owed you, that is YOUR problem, not mine. Fraud would be another matter and I approve of the use of force to obtain restitution in those instances. But breech of contract? That's a private matter. Be more careful next time you lend your money.
    Right --the Constitution allows one to go bankrupt to avoid just this

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by bobbyw24 View Post
    Right --the Constitution allows one to go bankrupt to avoid just this
    is that essentially letting the state discharge debt, encourage irresponsible lending, screw lenders, and subsidize bad behavior of debtors?

  14. #12
    So, Tpoints, you must be all for the War on Drugs, because it obviously and disproportionally punishes those too dumb to understand and use their Constitutional rights. Well, fine. Let's do it. Just one thing--the rest of us don't want to keep paying to incarcerate dumb people in academies of higher crime, where people can learn new trades like burglary, safecracking and dozens of others. So, we'll expect you to volunteer to fund this fiasco of yours.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You only want the freedoms that will undermine the nation and lead to the destruction of liberty.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    So, Tpoints, you must be all for the War on Drugs, because it obviously and disproportionally punishes those too dumb to understand and use their Constitutional rights. Well, fine. Let's do it.
    why would I be in favor of that?

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Tpoints View Post
    My prediction : people here will say because there's a system wide conspiracy to either bait stupid people into debt, or fraudulently force people into debt they'd never incur voluntarily. But hopefully people agree that if debts were voluntarily created, then prisons would be an appropriate punishment when debts can't be expected to be paid back (and bankruptcy discharging debts makes a mockery of responsibility)

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/26/op...ison.html?_r=0
    I say lock up all those that put our nation in debt.
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  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    I say lock up all those that put our nation in debt.
    Those who take a government salary should be locked up, for example those in the Air Force.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Tpoints View Post
    My prediction : people here will say
    Why should I have to pay for prisons because your dumbass can't pay your creditors?
    Maybe we'd have money to pay our bills if the state didn't always have it's hand in our pockets.
    Last edited by otherone; 02-04-2013 at 06:31 AM.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    Why should I have to pay for prisons because your dumbass can't pay your creditors?
    Maybe we'd have money to pay our bills if the state didn't always have it's hand in our pockets.
    you assume you pay nothing if I'm free to cheat more people out of their money, obviously I would only favor punishments and costs if I believe the alternative is worse.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    Why should I have to pay for prisons because your dumbass can't pay your creditors?
    Maybe we'd have money to pay our bills if the state didn't always have it's hand in our pockets.
    and the lesser known corollary

    Why should I have to pay for prisons because your dumb*ss can't loan to good risks?
    "Sorry, fellows, the rebellion is off. We couldn't get a rebellion permit."

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Tod View Post
    and the lesser known corollary

    Why should I have to pay for prisons because your dumb*ss can't loan to good risks?
    let's start over, why should you pay for any prisons? Are you happy to pay for any prisons? Or do you believe we should have none at all?

  23. #20
    Prisons run and funded by whom?

    Under what authority do you see laws of this nature being instituted?

    Finally how exactly do you see this as being a net positive for US citizens?

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Prisons run and funded by whom?

    Under what authority do you see laws of this nature being instituted?

    Finally how exactly do you see this as being a net positive for US citizens?
    yeah, I sure don't want to fund prisons, let's get rid of all laws. why should I pay to lock up a person just because he killed or raped somebody I don't know? What authority do I (or YOU for the matter) have to punish a person against his will just because he violated another person other than you or me?

    Net positive? Discourage debt. Oh, sorry, I must be imagining the wrong negatives about debt. Is debt something that's harmless and not worth avoiding? My bad!
    Last edited by Tpoints; 02-04-2013 at 06:48 AM.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Tpoints View Post
    yeah, I sure don't want to fund prisons, let's get rid of all laws. why should I pay to lock up a person just because he killed or raped somebody I don't know?
    Oh come on, you're the one spouting grand ideas try following up just a little bit.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Oh come on, you're the one spouting grand ideas try following up just a little bit.
    nobody likes funding prisons unless they benefit from it. I guess I can't convince you to fund it if you don't see the benefit.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Tpoints View Post
    nobody likes funding prisons unless they benefit from it. I guess I can't convince you to fund it if you don't see the benefit.
    Obviously you are having trouble answering pointed questions this morning and are looking to attribute thought and statements to me again.....

    Try harder.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Tpoints View Post
    nobody likes funding prisons unless they benefit from it. I guess I can't convince you to fund it if you don't see the benefit.
    Huh, ya think?

    This nation was founded with no debtors' prison being a basic principle. Why? Because it gets abused. How? Well, at the time, the slippery slope went like this: People get locked up because borrowing money they couldn't repay was considered fraudulent, then the lenders complained that this didn't help them recover their money, then those in debtors' prison were forced to work and the proceeds went to the lenders, then the lenders were motivated to make bad loans and put as many people as possible into debtors' prison, then people finally started asking how this system of slavery got started in the first place.

    There's a garden path I won't be led down. I not only don't see the benefit (free men can pay their debts, men in prison can't unless it's forced labor a.k.a. slavery) but I do clearly see the risks. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tpoints View Post
    Most of us are not victims of rape or murder either, so why should we pay to punish those people?
    Fail. Are you arguing that those who are raped or murdered are 'asking for it'? Or do you seriously believe that a lender that negotiates a loan with someone has as little to do with his situation as someone who is a victim of random violence? Under your system, getting a loan wouldn't be illegal, not repaying it would be. So, you're not a criminal until you miss a payment. At what point do rape and murder go from being legal to being illegal? They don't. They're illegal from the moment the perp goes from impulse to action. Therefore, the comparison is a major failure of logic.

    Take your propaganda down the hall.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tpoints View Post
    No, everybody will benefit from not having debtors cheat people left and right.
    And do they borrow by force? Or does someone willingly lend to them? Left and right? And how does everyone benefit? Because this makes getting credit easier? What about those people who never borrow? They do exist, you know.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 02-04-2013 at 07:35 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You only want the freedoms that will undermine the nation and lead to the destruction of liberty.

  30. #26
    I'm not going to get into a discussion with you about my beliefs on prisons, you opened this thread looking to expand the governments reach with "debtors prisons" and I merely asked you a few questions.

    Do you care to answer them?

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    I'm not going to get into a discussion with you about my beliefs on prisons, you opened this thread looking to expand the governments reach with "debtors prisons" and I merely asked you a few questions.

    Do you care to answer them?
    is it more likely you don't know what you're talking about and can't defend your position because you know how stupid it sounds when you hold yourself to the same rules and burdens you're "merely asking me"?

    I will be happy to answer a person who will at least correct me if he's going to cry strawman.
    Last edited by Tpoints; 02-04-2013 at 07:11 AM.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Tpoints View Post
    is it more likely you don't know what you're talking about and can't defend your position because you know how stupid it sounds when you hold yourself to the same rules and burdens you're "merely asking me"?
    You've got it Ace.

    I'm an idiot not worthy of your time.

    Bye.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    You've got it Ace.

    I'm an idiot not worthy of your time.

    Bye.
    Can't argue with that.

    You know which prisons you won't fund, but you can't tell me which ones you want to fund. So when I asked "why not just have zero laws" you complain I strawman you, but you can't correct me.
    Last edited by Tpoints; 02-04-2013 at 07:14 AM.

  34. #30
    Tpoints - I get what you're trying to do, which is to discourage debt, but you're thinking about it all wrong for both practical and theoretical reasons.

    First lets talk about practicality. What good does this do the creditor? As a creditor, you care about getting paid - how exactly do you think youll get paid if the person is unable to work being incarcerated? I could care less about someone being "punished" for not paying me back, I just want my money - in your scenario I have 0 chance of recouping some or all of my money... We already have courts that will force debtors to sell off assets in order to pay their debts.

    Now in theory, this is very flawed. As many have pointed out, who pays for this prison? What you are doing is forcing a bunch of people to fund a deterrent for a particular industry. Most are not involved in banking, loaning of money, etc. So a small group of people will benefit from stealing money from the majority in order to help ensure their money is repaid? Taking away the risk from lenders does not help ensure a stable market, as the housing industry is a prime example, it actually destroys the real market. Those who want to lend money must do so at their own risk, this is how you ensure that only those qualified to borrow do and those who are not qualified either cannot get the money or have to pay a much higher premium to do so. That is your deterrent... but what you are talking about is welfare for the credit/banking industry to allow them to have hired guns and detention centers paid for by the people they are lending to.

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