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Thread: Why not debtors' prison?

  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Acala View Post
    Breech of contract is not deliberate dishonesty used to trick people out of their property. It is simply failure to keep a promise. Fraud is a kind of theft, a predatory action. Breech of contract is just business. Made a bad deal? Too bad for you.
    so how do you prevent a person from committing fraud and calling it innocent breach? or should we?



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  3. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    You cannot deny that making incarcerations profitable for someone will lead that someone to try to influence the government into incarcerating more people. Noted. You could have admitted that without stuffing your shit in my mouth.
    Just like I can't deny that making imprisonment safer for society will lead society to pay for or ask for more prisoners. It all comes back to, people who benefit will want to get more benefit...

  4. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    You didn't answer the question. Who benefits? Who benefits? It isn't a hard question.
    Let's first take a step back, there are two possibilities, the person can be made to work, or he might not be (disabled, strong willed).

    If he can't be made to work, he shouldn't be let out to harm other people anyway.

    If he could be made to work, well, we'd probably pay back the creditor first, just like we'd want justice for the raped victim first before we worry about keeping society safer from the same criminal.

    Is our current system that lets the debtor walk away with bankruptcy and forces the creditor to leave the debtor alone better? juster?

  5. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tpoints View Post
    Statute were written by people, so ultimately something is illegal, by your definition, because somebody says so. Something you denied.
    Link or it didn't happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tpoints View Post
    Practicality doesn't matter to you? Sorry then!
    Anyone can see who is making practical points and who is engaging in sophistry here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tpoints View Post
    Ok, you have a point, people are punished differently if they intended to commit a crime vs accidentally harmed somebody. But lack of intent doesn't always mean you are completely off the hook.
    Well, now. Debtors' prison, genius, does not make that differentiation. And regular prison does have room for those who commit fraud, if it can be proven (and, no, psychic evidence isn't evidence at all in this nation).

    Quote Originally Posted by Tpoints View Post
    Just like I can't deny that making imprisonment safer for society will lead society to pay for or ask for more prisoners. It all comes back to, people who benefit will want to get more benefit...
    Well, now. You're not nearly as dense as you pretend to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tpoints View Post
    Is our current system that lets the debtor walk away with bankruptcy and forces the creditor to leave the debtor alone better? juster?
    'Juster' is not a word, at least not in English. I wish you'd buy a dictionary already.

    Better? As in, better than slavery? Yes. It is. Anything that involves slavery is in no way good, just, or justifiable. We're better off letting the whole lending system fail than re-institutionalizing slavery, imo. Not that this is an issue; even before they changed the laws and the people who filed for bankruptcy actually did come halfway close to walking away from their debts scot free (which is no longer true), the entire lending system didn't fail because of it.

    Now who's not interested in practicalities?
    Last edited by acptulsa; 02-04-2013 at 08:23 AM.
    The only way--the only way--the Republicans could possibly fail to capitalize on the Obamacare debacle and fail to win the White House in 2016 is by being stubborn and stupid enough to nominate someone besides Rand Paul.

    That's the only way they could possibly blow it. If we nominate Paul the presidency is a lock for the G.O.P. I guarantee it.

  6. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tpoints View Post
    My prediction : people here will say because there's a system wide conspiracy to either bait stupid people into debt, or fraudulently force people into debt they'd never incur voluntarily. But hopefully people agree that if debts were voluntarily created, then prisons would be an appropriate punishment when debts can't be expected to be paid back (and bankruptcy discharging debts makes a mockery of responsibility)

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/26/op...ison.html?_r=0
    Here is the reason an economist would give. Sometimes people with good intentions and a hard work ethic with every intent to pay back debt go bankrupt because they are unlucky.

    Imagine 1000 people want to borrow 20k each to start a business. Maybe 50-100 will lose all the money and default. A few hundred will pay back the money but not have very successful businesses and eventually close. Another several hundred will run mildly successful businesses and produce value for the economy. Maybe one will become a publicly traded company, even the next Microsoft. Now imagine what would happen if those 1000 people didn't want to start a business for fear of debtors prison. We lose many successful small businesses and the possibility of a next major company as a result. Sure we also prevent some defaults, but the lenders understand the risk going in and we understand that people sometimes default even with the best intentions.

  7. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Link or it didn't happen.
    ok
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    It's not illegal because 'somebody' says so, it's illegal because the statutes say so. Go buy yourself a dictionary.

  8. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tpoints View Post
    ok
    The statutes are not 'somebody', they are the stautes. And they're not statutes because just anyone said so, they're statutes because they got passed into law. In some places, that might be because 'somebody'--very specifically, a king--said so. But in this nation, laws become laws when they get passed, and they don't get passed by 'somebody', but by a whole room full of very specific people.

    ok?
    The only way--the only way--the Republicans could possibly fail to capitalize on the Obamacare debacle and fail to win the White House in 2016 is by being stubborn and stupid enough to nominate someone besides Rand Paul.

    That's the only way they could possibly blow it. If we nominate Paul the presidency is a lock for the G.O.P. I guarantee it.

  9. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by ababba View Post
    Here is the reason an economist would give. Sometimes people with good intentions and a hard work ethic with every intent to pay back debt go bankrupt because they are unlucky.

    Imagine 1000 people want to borrow 20k each to start a business. Maybe 50-100 will lose all the money and default. A few hundred will pay back the money but not have very successful businesses and eventually close. Another several hundred will run mildly successful businesses and produce value for the economy. Maybe one will become a publicly traded company, even the next Microsoft. Now imagine what would happen if those 1000 people didn't want to start a business for fear of debtors prison. We lose many successful small businesses and the possibility of a next major company as a result. Sure we also prevent some defaults, but the lenders understand the risk going in and we understand that people sometimes default even with the best intentions.
    if you're just saying we need a balance between too much fear of irresponsible loans and not enough, we agree.

  10. #69
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    TPoints, are you acutally arguing for "debtors prisons" or looking to make some other point using that as the way to arrive at your point?

  11. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tpoints View Post
    My prediction : people here will say because there's a system wide conspiracy to either bait stupid people into debt, or fraudulently force people into debt they'd never incur voluntarily. But hopefully people agree that if debts were voluntarily created, then prisons would be an appropriate punishment when debts can't be expected to be paid back (and bankruptcy discharging debts makes a mockery of responsibility)

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/26/op...ison.html?_r=0

    It's because it's unconstitutional.
    .[QUOTE]"Every great new thought was opposed. Every great new invention was denounced. The first motor was considered foolish. The airplane was considered impossible. The power loom was considered vicious. Anesthesia was considered sinful. But the men of unborrowed vision went ahead. They fought, they suffered and they paid. But they won." - Ayn Rand, The Fountainhead[/QUOTE]
    ..
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  12. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tpoints View Post
    so how do you prevent a person from committing fraud and calling it innocent breach? or should we?
    You prove up fraud with evidence, like any other crime. If you can prove that a person deliberately lied about some material fact in order to induce you to part with your propery for their benefit, and you actually did so rely, it's a fraud.
    The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.

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  13. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by ClydeCoulter View Post
    TPoints, are you acutally arguing for "debtors prisons" or looking to make some other point using that as the way to arrive at your point?
    I believe the point is to paint us as corporatists. Which is something corporations would be happy for either a troll or a useful idiot to do. But it isn't that easy, and the main reason it isn't that easy is because we're not corporatists.

    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    It's because it's unconstitutional.
    He already denied that. So, reality obviously cuts no ice with this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Acala View Post
    You prove up fraud with evidence, like any other crime. If you can prove that a person deliberately lied about some material fact in order to induce you to part with your propery for their benefit, and you actually did so rely, it's a fraud.
    And it doesn't require a debtors' prison to incarcerate someone for fraud. Another reality bite he seems intent on denying.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 02-04-2013 at 08:38 AM.
    The only way--the only way--the Republicans could possibly fail to capitalize on the Obamacare debacle and fail to win the White House in 2016 is by being stubborn and stupid enough to nominate someone besides Rand Paul.

    That's the only way they could possibly blow it. If we nominate Paul the presidency is a lock for the G.O.P. I guarantee it.

  14. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Acala View Post
    Breech of contract is not deliberate dishonesty used to trick people out of their property. It is simply failure to keep a promise. Fraud is a kind of theft, a predatory action. Breech of contract is just business. Made a bad deal? Too bad for you.
    The amount of investigation required to find mens rea (criminal intent) prior to a loan agreement would be too onerous (if possible at all) for the DAs office to even attempt. Where would the funds come from to saddle the criminal justice system with the additional role of debt collector? How much scratch are you willing to put out, Mr. Points, so BoA doesn't lose out? Wait...haven't we bailed out the banks enough?

  15. #74

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    Libertarian heavyweights Walter Block and Stephan Kinsella discuss this very thing at the beginning of their recent talk.

    Block (and Rothbard) is for debtors prisons. Kinsella is against.

    http://www.stephankinsella.com/paf-p...ntary-slavery/

  16. #75
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    Banks are still the Real Criminals, and we are still the Real Victims. Debtors Prisons throw the Victims in Prison.
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  17. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post



    He already denied that. So, reality obviously cuts no ice with this one.



    .
    Must be a liberal.
    .[QUOTE]"Every great new thought was opposed. Every great new invention was denounced. The first motor was considered foolish. The airplane was considered impossible. The power loom was considered vicious. Anesthesia was considered sinful. But the men of unborrowed vision went ahead. They fought, they suffered and they paid. But they won." - Ayn Rand, The Fountainhead[/QUOTE]
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    I blog at Red State Eclectic, and I tweet here,.

  18. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    Banks are still the Real Criminals, and we are still the Real Victims. Debtors Prisons throw the Victims in Prison.
    Illinois has been skirting the issue. The creditor sues to get a judgement. Most creditors don't show up for the hearing, expecting to lose by default. The judge instead puts out a "Failure To Appear" warrant for their arrest. They end up in jail, and then they aren't released until they pay the court costs and the judgement.
    .[QUOTE]"Every great new thought was opposed. Every great new invention was denounced. The first motor was considered foolish. The airplane was considered impossible. The power loom was considered vicious. Anesthesia was considered sinful. But the men of unborrowed vision went ahead. They fought, they suffered and they paid. But they won." - Ayn Rand, The Fountainhead[/QUOTE]
    ..
    .

    I blog at Red State Eclectic, and I tweet here,.

  19. #78

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    If someone owes you money, you have the right to get that money back or equivalent property. Any judicial system, whether public or private, can handle that. What you don't have the right to is to enslave someone because they owe you money.

  20. #79

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    It makes no sense to put someone in prison. The punishment doesn't fit the crime at all. What does make sense is that their credit rating will be destroyed and they won't be able to borrow in the future. This already happens.
    No more IRS.
    I am now old enough to vote.

  21. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2young2vote View Post
    It makes no sense to put someone in prison.
    Why must the state be accountable for a business' failure of due diligence? If you make bad loans, you should fail as a business.

  22. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    I say lock up all those that put our nation in debt.
    Those who take a government salary should be locked up, for example those in the Air Force.

  23. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    Why must the state be accountable for a business' failure of due diligence? If you make bad loans, you should fail as a business.
    Yeah, thats what I was getting at. Someone will be punished, not by the state putting them in a cage, but by not being able to borrow as much in the future.
    No more IRS.
    I am now old enough to vote.

  24. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tpoints View Post
    then prisons would be an appropriate punishment when debts can't be expected to be paid back
    Why??
    Prisons are expensive to build and staff and maintain.
    The debt could not be paid by an inmate, in fact more would be spent on upkeep.

    How could anyone think this was ever a good idea? (likely the reason they no longer exist)
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
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  25. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tpoints View Post
    if you're just saying we need a balance between too much fear of irresponsible loans and not enough, we agree.
    No the point is that responsible loans can default. You don't know in advance which ones will, it's called uncertainty and it exists.

    In my example, every loan was responsible. Each borrower would repay if able.

  26. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by Acala View Post
    Be more careful next time you lend your money.
    Yep, lenders need to be responsible too if they are going to attempt to profit through an investment like lending.
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  27. #86

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    How in the hell does someone in prison ever have a chance of paying off a debt?

    Not a very well thought out question.

  28. #87

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    Big Finance would never allow debtor's prison.
    The demand for credit would plummet.
    People wound not purchase things unless they had the money.

    I haven't read the every post in the thread, but it seems that everyone thinks the amount of loans would stay the same and we would have a huge prison system bulging at the seams with debtors.

    I don't see that. I see people taking less loans.

  29. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by FrancisMarion View Post
    Big Finance would never allow debtor's prison.
    The demand for credit would plummet.
    People wound not purchase things unless they had the money.
    I think jkr's post was closest to the truth:

    Quote Originally Posted by jkr View Post
    the UNITES STATES OF AMERICA *is* a debtors prison

    L00k around...
    We're just not intended to recognize the prison on the outside.

  30. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Gold Standard View Post
    If someone owes you money, you have the right to get that money back or equivalent property. Any judicial system, whether public or private, can handle that. What you don't have the right to is to enslave someone because they owe you money.
    So you think that if we enter into an agreement where I agree to pay you fifty bucks for a concert ticket and I never show up because I got sick or lost my fifty bucks, that you should be able to use force to come and take fifty bucks from me?
    The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.

    "Who would be free, themselves must strike the blow." - Byron

    "Who overcomes by force, hath overcome but half his foe." - Milton

  31. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by Acala View Post
    So you think that if we enter into an agreement where I agree to pay you fifty bucks for a concert ticket and I never show up because I got sick or lost my fifty bucks, that you should be able to use force to come and take fifty bucks from me?
    If you didn't pick up the tickets then no, of course not. If you were sent the tickets with the agreement to pay for them, and then never did, then I can absolutely use force to get my money from you. I can't use force to take your car, or $100, but I can to get the $50 owed me.

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