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Thread: Why not debtors' prison?

  1. #1

    Default Why not debtors' prison?

    My prediction : people here will say because there's a system wide conspiracy to either bait stupid people into debt, or fraudulently force people into debt they'd never incur voluntarily. But hopefully people agree that if debts were voluntarily created, then prisons would be an appropriate punishment when debts can't be expected to be paid back (and bankruptcy discharging debts makes a mockery of responsibility)

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/26/op...ison.html?_r=0



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  3. #2

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    Government shouldn't be in the business of enforcing people's contracts. If you make a bad deal and end up being unable to collect what is owed you, that is YOUR problem, not mine. Fraud would be another matter and I approve of the use of force to obtain restitution in those instances. But breech of contract? That's a private matter. Be more careful next time you lend your money.
    The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.

    "Who would be free, themselves must strike the blow." - Byron

    "Who overcomes by force, hath overcome but half his foe." - Milton

  4. #3

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    So, Tpoints, you must be all for the War on Drugs, because it obviously and disproportionally punishes those too dumb to understand and use their Constitutional rights. Well, fine. Let's do it. Just one thing--the rest of us don't want to keep paying to incarcerate dumb people in academies of higher crime, where people can learn new trades like burglary, safecracking and dozens of others. So, we'll expect you to volunteer to fund this fiasco of yours.
    Quote Originally Posted by Calvin Coolidge View Post
    There is danger of disappointment and disaster unless there be a wider comprehension of the limitations of the law. The attempt to regulate, control, and prescribe all manner of conduct and social relations is very old. It was always the practice of primitive peoples.
    Quote Originally Posted by Will Rogers View Post
    Never was a country in the throes of more capital letters than the old U.S.A., but we still haven't sent out the S.O.S.

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tpoints View Post
    My prediction : people here will say because there's a system wide conspiracy to either bait stupid people into debt, or fraudulently force people into debt they'd never incur voluntarily. But hopefully people agree that if debts were voluntarily created, then prisons would be an appropriate punishment when debts can't be expected to be paid back (and bankruptcy discharging debts makes a mockery of responsibility)

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/26/op...ison.html?_r=0
    I say lock up all those that put our nation in debt.
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  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tpoints View Post
    My prediction : people here will say
    Why should I have to pay for prisons because your dumbass can't pay your creditors?
    Maybe we'd have money to pay our bills if the state didn't always have it's hand in our pockets.
    Last edited by otherone; 02-04-2013 at 06:31 AM.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Acala View Post
    Government shouldn't be in the business of enforcing people's contracts. If you make a bad deal and end up being unable to collect what is owed you, that is YOUR problem, not mine. Fraud would be another matter and I approve of the use of force to obtain restitution in those instances. But breech of contract? That's a private matter. Be more careful next time you lend your money.
    how is breaching contract any less the government's business than fraud?

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    Why should I have to pay for prisons because your dumbass can't pay your creditors?
    Maybe we'd have money to pay our bills if the state didn't always have it's hand in our pockets.
    you assume you pay nothing if I'm free to cheat more people out of their money, obviously I would only favor punishments and costs if I believe the alternative is worse.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    So, Tpoints, you must be all for the War on Drugs, because it obviously and disproportionally punishes those too dumb to understand and use their Constitutional rights. Well, fine. Let's do it.
    why would I be in favor of that?

  10. #9

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    Prisons run and funded by whom?

    Under what authority do you see laws of this nature being instituted?

    Finally how exactly do you see this as being a net positive for US citizens?

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Prisons run and funded by whom?

    Under what authority do you see laws of this nature being instituted?

    Finally how exactly do you see this as being a net positive for US citizens?
    yeah, I sure don't want to fund prisons, let's get rid of all laws. why should I pay to lock up a person just because he killed or raped somebody I don't know? What authority do I (or YOU for the matter) have to punish a person against his will just because he violated another person other than you or me?

    Net positive? Discourage debt. Oh, sorry, I must be imagining the wrong negatives about debt. Is debt something that's harmless and not worth avoiding? My bad!
    Last edited by Tpoints; 02-04-2013 at 06:48 AM.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tpoints View Post
    yeah, I sure don't want to fund prisons, let's get rid of all laws. why should I pay to lock up a person just because he killed or raped somebody I don't know?
    Oh come on, you're the one spouting grand ideas try following up just a little bit.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Oh come on, you're the one spouting grand ideas try following up just a little bit.
    nobody likes funding prisons unless they benefit from it. I guess I can't convince you to fund it if you don't see the benefit.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tpoints View Post
    nobody likes funding prisons unless they benefit from it. I guess I can't convince you to fund it if you don't see the benefit.
    Obviously you are having trouble answering pointed questions this morning and are looking to attribute thought and statements to me again.....

    Try harder.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Obviously you are having trouble answering pointed questions this morning and are looking to attribute thought and statements to me again.....

    Try harder.
    ok, tell me. What prisons are you happy to fund, and why?

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Obviously you are having trouble answering pointed questions this morning and are looking to attribute thought and statements to me again.....

    Try harder.
    It's strawman monday...."maybe we shouldn't have ANY laws, rapists and pedophiles running amok in the streets....."


    How about this....why must I be responsible to recover money for an irresponsible lender?

  17. #16

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    I'm not going to get into a discussion with you about my beliefs on prisons, you opened this thread looking to expand the governments reach with "debtors prisons" and I merely asked you a few questions.

    Do you care to answer them?

  18. #17

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    It's strawman monday...."maybe we shouldn't have ANY laws, rapists and pedophiles running amok in the streets....."


    How about this....why must I be responsible to recover money for an irresponsible lender?
    the same reason you must be responsible for paying to imprison a criminal who didn't violate or threaten you, UNLESS YOU ADMIT WE SHOULD HAVE NO LAWS OR NO ENFORCEMENT FUNDED BY TAXPAYERS.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    I'm not going to get into a discussion with you about my beliefs on prisons, you opened this thread looking to expand the governments reach with "debtors prisons" and I merely asked you a few questions.

    Do you care to answer them?
    is it more likely you don't know what you're talking about and can't defend your position because you know how stupid it sounds when you hold yourself to the same rules and burdens you're "merely asking me"?

    I will be happy to answer a person who will at least correct me if he's going to cry strawman.
    Last edited by Tpoints; 02-04-2013 at 07:11 AM.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tpoints View Post
    is it more likely you don't know what you're talking about and can't defend your position because you know how stupid it sounds when you hold yourself to the same rules and burdens you're "merely asking me"?
    You've got it Ace.

    I'm an idiot not worthy of your time.

    Bye.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    You've got it Ace.

    I'm an idiot not worthy of your time.

    Bye.
    Can't argue with that.

    You know which prisons you won't fund, but you can't tell me which ones you want to fund. So when I asked "why not just have zero laws" you complain I strawman you, but you can't correct me.
    Last edited by Tpoints; 02-04-2013 at 07:14 AM.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    Why should I have to pay for prisons because your dumbass can't pay your creditors?
    Maybe we'd have money to pay our bills if the state didn't always have it's hand in our pockets.
    and the lesser known corollary

    Why should I have to pay for prisons because your dumb*ss can't loan to good risks?
    "Sorry, guys, the rebellion is off. We couldn't get a rebellion permit."
    "What is this, a home owner's association? Why the need to try and control other people's behavior?"



  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tod View Post
    and the lesser known corollary

    Why should I have to pay for prisons because your dumb*ss can't loan to good risks?
    let's start over, why should you pay for any prisons? Are you happy to pay for any prisons? Or do you believe we should have none at all?

  24. #23

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    Tpoints - I get what you're trying to do, which is to discourage debt, but you're thinking about it all wrong for both practical and theoretical reasons.

    First lets talk about practicality. What good does this do the creditor? As a creditor, you care about getting paid - how exactly do you think youll get paid if the person is unable to work being incarcerated? I could care less about someone being "punished" for not paying me back, I just want my money - in your scenario I have 0 chance of recouping some or all of my money... We already have courts that will force debtors to sell off assets in order to pay their debts.

    Now in theory, this is very flawed. As many have pointed out, who pays for this prison? What you are doing is forcing a bunch of people to fund a deterrent for a particular industry. Most are not involved in banking, loaning of money, etc. So a small group of people will benefit from stealing money from the majority in order to help ensure their money is repaid? Taking away the risk from lenders does not help ensure a stable market, as the housing industry is a prime example, it actually destroys the real market. Those who want to lend money must do so at their own risk, this is how you ensure that only those qualified to borrow do and those who are not qualified either cannot get the money or have to pay a much higher premium to do so. That is your deterrent... but what you are talking about is welfare for the credit/banking industry to allow them to have hired guns and detention centers paid for by the people they are lending to.

  25. #24

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    Let's see: I start a business where I loan money to someone who loses their job and can't pay me back. So now not only did I loan them money but now now I have to support them by paying for their imprisonment? Who are we punishing again?
    "Sorry, guys, the rebellion is off. We couldn't get a rebellion permit."
    "What is this, a home owner's association? Why the need to try and control other people's behavior?"



  26. #25

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CT4Liberty View Post
    Tpoints - I get what you're trying to do, which is to discourage debt, but you're thinking about it all wrong for both practical and theoretical reasons.

    First lets talk about practicality. What good does this do the creditor? As a creditor, you care about getting paid - how exactly do you think youll get paid if the person is unable to work being incarcerated?
    Because they're already convinced that paying them back is impossible either because the person is unable or unwilling. That's like asking how is putting my rapist or robber in prison going to unrape or unrob me?

    I could care less about someone being "punished" for not paying me back, I just want my money - in your scenario I have 0 chance of recouping some or all of my money... We already have courts that will force debtors to sell off assets in order to pay their debts.
    Of course I want to get paid if it was possible, but if I can't, why shouldn't I have the person punished if it either discourages him from doing it again, keeps him from doing it again, and teaches people what happens if you wrong people? Again, who doesn't want to prevent crime and undo crimes if they could? But if they can't why would doing nothing be better than punishing the criminal?

    Now in theory, this is very flawed. As many have pointed out, who pays for this prison?
    Who pays for prisons now? Who's happy to pay for which prisons and which crimes to be imprisonable?

    What you are doing is forcing a bunch of people to fund a deterrent for a particular industry. Most are not involved in banking, loaning of money, etc.
    Most of us are not victims of rape or murder either, so why should we pay to punish those people?

    So a small group of people will benefit from stealing money from the majority in order to help ensure their money is repaid?
    No, everybody will benefit from not having debtors cheat people left and right.

  27. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tpoints View Post
    nobody likes funding prisons unless they benefit from it. I guess I can't convince you to fund it if you don't see the benefit.
    Huh, ya think?

    This nation was founded with no debtors' prison being a basic principle. Why? Because it gets abused. How? Well, at the time, the slippery slope went like this: People get locked up because borrowing money they couldn't repay was considered fraudulent, then the lenders complained that this didn't help them recover their money, then those in debtors' prison were forced to work and the proceeds went to the lenders, then the lenders were motivated to make bad loans and put as many people as possible into debtors' prison, then people finally started asking how this system of slavery got started in the first place.

    There's a garden path I won't be led down. I not only don't see the benefit (free men can pay their debts, men in prison can't unless it's forced labor a.k.a. slavery) but I do clearly see the risks. No thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tpoints View Post
    Most of us are not victims of rape or murder either, so why should we pay to punish those people?
    Fail. Are you arguing that those who are raped or murdered are 'asking for it'? Or do you seriously believe that a lender that negotiates a loan with someone has as little to do with his situation as someone who is a victim of random violence? Under your system, getting a loan wouldn't be illegal, not repaying it would be. So, you're not a criminal until you miss a payment. At what point do rape and murder go from being legal to being illegal? They don't. They're illegal from the moment the perp goes from impulse to action. Therefore, the comparison is a major failure of logic.

    Take your propaganda down the hall.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tpoints View Post
    No, everybody will benefit from not having debtors cheat people left and right.
    And do they borrow by force? Or does someone willingly lend to them? Left and right? And how does everyone benefit? Because this makes getting credit easier? What about those people who never borrow? They do exist, you know.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 02-04-2013 at 07:35 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Calvin Coolidge View Post
    There is danger of disappointment and disaster unless there be a wider comprehension of the limitations of the law. The attempt to regulate, control, and prescribe all manner of conduct and social relations is very old. It was always the practice of primitive peoples.
    Quote Originally Posted by Will Rogers View Post
    Never was a country in the throes of more capital letters than the old U.S.A., but we still haven't sent out the S.O.S.

  28. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tod View Post
    Let's see: I start a business where I loan money to someone who loses their job and can't pay me back. So now not only did I loan them money but now now I have to support them by paying for their imprisonment? Who are we punishing again?
    you most likely were not stupid enough to lend to a person without some reasonable belief he'd pay back, that's what the credit rating system is for. But even then, there are unpredictable things and times. So would you be at the very least in favor of not allowing bankruptcy and discharge of debts? so the debts can never borrow again unless he pays previous debts?

  29. #28

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    As a country we chose bankruptcy over debtors prison about 150 years ago. I consider the arguments for bankruptcy compelling.
    Insanity should be defined as trusting the government to solve a problem they caused in the first place. Please do not go insane!

  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Huh, ya think?

    This nation was founded with no debtors' prison being a basic principle. Why? Because it gets abused. How? Well, at the time, the slippery slope went like this: People get locked up because borrowing money they couldn't repay was considered fraudulent, then the lenders complained that this didn't help them recover their money, then those in debtors' prison were forced to work and the proceeds went to the lenders, then the lenders were motivated to make bad loans and put as many people as possible into debtors' prison, then people finally started asking how this system of slavery got started in the first place.
    Oh, and all that time, nobody learned to stop borrowing? Nobody knew where their friends were kidnapped or scammed? People just kept falling for it?

    There's a garden path I won't be led down. I not only don't see the benefit (free men can pay their debts, men in prison can't unless it's forced labor a.k.a. slavery) but I do clearly see the risks. No thanks.
    so what do we do to people who never repays their debts? let them walk freely and continue to borrow money? Wipe their slate clean every 7 years so they can keep doing it? Or make sure their records stay with them so people know not to trust them?

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tpoints View Post
    Oh, and all that time, nobody learned to stop borrowing? Nobody knew where their friends were kidnapped or scammed? People just kept falling for it?
    Actually, during that time the government just kept making it harder and harder for people to make ends meet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tpoints View Post
    so what do we do to people who never repays their debts? let them walk freely and continue to borrow money? Wipe their slate clean every 7 years so they can keep doing it? Or make sure their records stay with them so people know not to trust them?
    Do you really and truly think there are no records of who goes through bankruptcy? Seriously?
    Quote Originally Posted by Calvin Coolidge View Post
    There is danger of disappointment and disaster unless there be a wider comprehension of the limitations of the law. The attempt to regulate, control, and prescribe all manner of conduct and social relations is very old. It was always the practice of primitive peoples.
    Quote Originally Posted by Will Rogers View Post
    Never was a country in the throes of more capital letters than the old U.S.A., but we still haven't sent out the S.O.S.

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