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Thread: How should the US respond to sanctions?

  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    Please quit repeating this, they are NOT an act of war, unless the country they are being imposed on considers it an act of war.
    What's your basis for saying this?
    I知 not a libertarian. I知 not advocating everyone run around with no clothes on and smoke pot.



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  3. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    Please quit repeating this, they are NOT an act of war, unless the country they are being imposed on considers it an act of war.
    Ok, so suppose a country has sanctions imposed on it and CONSIDERS it an act of war, what is the proper response?

  4. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    Let that country suffer the consequences of its own self-defeating policy.
    Now getting to a specific example, should the Iranians not care about our sanctions then?

  5. #34

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    Attack them it is an act of war. We should have attacked the Arabs in 73 when they put an oil embargo on us.
    War; everything in the world wrong, evil and immoral combined into one and multiplied by millions.

  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by tsai3904 View Post
    So what should the proper response be if a powerful country prevents US citizens from purchasing or selling products to their country?
    It depends. Prevents how? Or rather: prevents where?

    If it attempts to use force to impose such restrictions outside of its own borders, then that would be an act of war.

    If it attempts to use force to impose such restrictions inside of its own borders, then that would be an internal matter, and would not be an act of war.
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  7. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by tsai3904 View Post
    Now getting to a specific example, should the Iranians not care about our sanctions then?
    Care is an emotion. For their own sake they shouldn't retaliate in any ways that wouldn't be good for them to do in the first place. And it may well be the case that the best thing they could do would be to give into the demands that the sanctions are there for. I don't know what all that would involve, but it's probably mostly things they'd be better off doing anyway. They just shouldn't have their arms twisted by some foreign government telling them, "We know what's good for you better than you do."
    I知 not a libertarian. I知 not advocating everyone run around with no clothes on and smoke pot.

  8. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpreadOfLiberty View Post
    Stop bailing out Euro banks for starters!
    +rep

    /threadwinner

  9. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    If it attempts to use force to impose such restrictions outside of its own borders, then that would be an act of war.

    If it attempts to use force to impose such restrictions inside of its own borders, then that would be an internal matter, and would not be an act of war.
    How would you characterize our sanctions on Iran then? Trade is a two way street so I don't understand why it would matter if restrictions were on the outside or inside unless you are talking about a military blockade right outside another country.

  10. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by tsai3904 View Post
    Ok, so suppose a country has sanctions imposed on it and CONSIDERS it an act of war, what is the proper response?
    What is your point here?

    Seems odd that we can all see the issues of one-size-fits-all solutions that the feds enact, but in a case like this we're supposed to figure out a one-size-fits-all response?

    It is entirely based on the contingencies. In this case the US did wrong and are reaping consequences, so war doesn't seem appropriate... However, say the US is not stepping on any toes and another power-hungry superpower decided to take the wind out of our sails with blockades and such, then that may be seen more as an act of aggression rather than retaliation... And this is not to mention all of the other contingencies of whether war, which of course should only be started as an absolute last resort of defense, is warranted.

    I just don't understand why you're looking for a definitive answer to a question that is greatly affected by a number of different factors.
    The kids they dance and shake their bones,
    While the politicians are throwing stones,
    And it's all too clear we're on our own,
    Singing ashes, ashes, all fall down...

  11. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    Care is an emotion. For their own sake they shouldn't retaliate in any ways that wouldn't be good for them to do in the first place. And it may well be the case that the best thing they could do would be to give into the demands that the sanctions are there for. I don't know what all that would involve, but it's probably mostly things they'd be better off doing anyway. They just shouldn't have their arms twisted by some foreign government telling them, "We know what's good for you better than you do."
    If you were an Iranian, you don't think the US sanctions on Iran are justifiable for a military attack (ignoring the military strengths of the countries)?

  12. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by tsai3904 View Post
    If you were an Iranian, you don't think the US sanctions on Iran are justifiable for a military attack (ignoring the military strengths of the countries)?
    Not if that military attack involved the Iranian government drafting me and my loved ones, taxing us, or imposing its own economic restrictions on us in order to facilitate its waging of that war.
    I知 not a libertarian. I知 not advocating everyone run around with no clothes on and smoke pot.

  13. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrinchWhoStoleDC View Post
    What is your point here?

    I just don't understand why you're looking for a definitive answer to a question that is greatly affected by a number of different factors.
    I'm just trying to stir up a discussion. Many people have disagreed about Rand's votes for sanctions because they keep saying that all sanctions are an act of war. Well it seems that many people in this thread don't believe that.

  14. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by tsai3904 View Post
    I'm just trying to stir up a discussion. Many people have disagreed about Rand's votes for sanctions because they keep saying that all sanctions are an act of war. Well it seems that many people in this thread don't believe that.
    Because if the US does it it is an act of war, if any other country does it, it is NOT and we probably asked for it. Simple as that.
    Last edited by klamath; 02-05-2013 at 10:07 AM.
    War; everything in the world wrong, evil and immoral combined into one and multiplied by millions.

  15. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by tsai3904 View Post
    Ok, so suppose a country has sanctions imposed on it and CONSIDERS it an act of war, what is the proper response?
    Yes, now THAT is the correct question to ask. Of course the answer is always specific to the circumstances so hypotheticals are really impossible to answer.
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  16. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    What's your basis for saying this?
    Research on international law. Search the forums for some of my posts that say "sanctions are not an act of war" and you'll see it documented and such.
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  17. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    Please quit repeating this, [sanctions] are NOT an act of war, unless the country they are being imposed on considers it an act of war.
    Nonsense. Sanctions are either an act of war or they are not. Period.

    Whether the sanctioned country chooses to regard them as such (or decides to do something about it if it does) has nothing to do with it.

    I'll repeat what I said about the matter in another thread [quote is edited for concision]:

    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    Either sanctions justify the target to react with defensive force (regardless of whether the target actually chooses to do so) - or they do not.

    If I punch you in the face, either you are justified to punch me back (regardless of whether you actually choose to do so) - or you are not.

    The point of this "punch you in the face" analogy is NOT to say that sanctions are wrong because they are analogous to punching someone in the face. (That completely misses the point.)

    The point is that reacting to ANY given action ("punches" or "sanctions" or whatever) with defensive/retaliatory force is either justified or it isn't - regardless of (A) whether the target actually does so, or (B) what the target "chooses to consider".

    IF - note the IF - sanctions justify the defensive/retaliatory use of force, THEN sanctions ARE an act of war - because the target is justified in retaliating with defensive force (whether it chooses to do so or not).

    IF, on the other hand, sanctions do NOT justify the defensive/retaliatory use of force, THEN sanctions are NOT an act of war - because the target is NOT justified in retaliating with defensive force.

    So if you say, "Sanctions are an act of war if the target country chooses to consider them as such" then you are saying "Sanctions are an act of war" - because the "if ..." clause is entirely superfluous.

    Whether or not a country actually does go to war over sanctions is entirely irrelevant to whether or not it would be justified in doing so - regardless of what it "chooses to consider".
    quod omnes tangit, ab omnibus approbetur fiat justitia, ruat caelum sic semper tyrannis
    The Bastiat Collection - FREE PDF

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    • "When law and morality are in contradiction to each other, the citizen finds himself in the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense, or of losing his respect for the law."
      - The Law (p. 54)
    • "Government is that great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
      - Government (p. 99)
    • "[W]ar is always begun in the interest of the few, and at the expense of the many."
      - Economic Sophisms - Second Series (p. 312)
    • "There are two principles that can never be reconciled - Liberty and Constraint."
      - Harmonies of Political Economy - Book One (p. 447)

  18. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by klamath View Post
    Because if the US does it it isan act of war, if any other country does it is NOT and we probably asked for it. Simple as that.
    If you believe an act of war has been committed against you, whether militarily or through sanctions, wouldn't you act in response? Ron knew the reasonsings behind 9/11 but still voted to go to war in response to an act of war.

  19. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    Research on international law. Search the forums for some of my posts that say "sanctions are not an act of war" and you'll see it documented and such.
    Is there some reason we should treat "international law" as authoritative on this matter?

    In my eyes, saying, "X is not an act of war," and saying, "according to international law, X is not an act of war," are two different things.
    Last edited by erowe1; 02-05-2013 at 10:13 AM.
    I知 not a libertarian. I知 not advocating everyone run around with no clothes on and smoke pot.

  20. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by tsai3904 View Post
    If you believe an act of war has been committed against you, whether militarily or through sanctions, wouldn't you act in response? Ron knew the reasonsings behind 9/11 but still voted to go to war in response to an act of war.
    It was sarcasm.
    War; everything in the world wrong, evil and immoral combined into one and multiplied by millions.

  21. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    Yes, now THAT is the correct question to ask. Of course the answer is always specific to the circumstances so hypotheticals are really impossible to answer.
    I'm not really looking for one answer that will make me understand everything and be done with this thread. Just trying to facilitate discussion so if you want to come up with your hypotheticals, go ahead.

    I'm wondering would people here who are very non-interventionist support a military war if very harsh sanctions were imposed on us. Say if our sanctions on Iran were instead imposed on us by a powerful country, would that justify us sending boots on the ground to said powerful country (regardless of each country's military strength).

  22. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by klamath View Post
    It was sarcasm.
    I thought so but some people's response have been like yours.

  23. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by tsai3904 View Post
    I thought so but some people's response have been like yours.
    That is because Many people automatically will try and justify ANY action by a foriegn country and look for ANY scrap of evidence that it was the US's fault, but don't ask me why.
    War; everything in the world wrong, evil and immoral combined into one and multiplied by millions.

  24. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by klamath View Post
    That is because Many people automatically will try and justify ANY action by a foriegn country and look for ANY scrap of evidence that it was the US's fault, but don't ask me why.
    Well, if you want to be global superpower who starts illegal wars and meddle against anyone who gets in your way, then yeah, expect that people are going to view you as the agressor.
    The kids they dance and shake their bones,
    While the politicians are throwing stones,
    And it's all too clear we're on our own,
    Singing ashes, ashes, all fall down...

  25. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrinchWhoStoleDC View Post
    Well, if you want to be global superpower who starts illegal wars and meddle against anyone who gets in your way, then yeah, expect that people are going to view you as the agressor.
    Yep even when it is the other country that is the aggressor. All was peace and beauty in the the world before the existence of the US.
    War; everything in the world wrong, evil and immoral combined into one and multiplied by millions.

  26. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by klamath View Post
    Yep even when it is the other country that is the aggressor. All was peace and beauty in the the world before the existence of the US.
    There have been plenty of aggressive superpowers, the Nazis, Soviets, Brits just to name a couple, but I don't see what that has to do with the US getting accused of what it frequently does.

    Hell, the last time we were attacked by a sovereign nation was 1942, so I don't know what you're doing here if you don't feel that America has been THE major source of aggression since then.
    The kids they dance and shake their bones,
    While the politicians are throwing stones,
    And it's all too clear we're on our own,
    Singing ashes, ashes, all fall down...

  27. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrinchWhoStoleDC View Post
    There have been plenty of aggressive superpowers, the Nazis, Soviets, Brits just to name a couple, but I don't see what that has to do with the US getting accused of what it frequently does.

    Hell, the last time we were attacked by a sovereign nation was 1942, so I don't know what you're doing here if you don't feel that America has been THE major source of aggression since then.
    You know I really don't give a fuck why you think I should be here. I am here for MY own reasons and it is not because I think the US has been the the agressor all the time. I have absolutely no problem holding my countries feet to the fire for wrong actions I think we have done but I don't automatically try and blame EVERTHING wrong action in the world on the US even when we have nothing to do with it which many people do around here.
    War; everything in the world wrong, evil and immoral combined into one and multiplied by millions.

  28. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by klamath View Post
    You know I really don't give a fuck why you think I should be here. I am here for MY own reasons and it is not because I think the US has been the the agressor all the time. I have absolutely no problem holding my countries feet to the fire for wrong actions I think we have done but I don't automatically try and blame EVERTHING wrong action in the world on the US even when we have nothing to do with it which many people do around here.
    Example? What exactly has been levied against the federal government that they didn't deserve?

    By the way I don't care why you're here either, but I just find it bizarre why you can't see the animosity towards our government that has taken it upon itself to pre-emptively kill millions to secure resources and control, while we haven't been attacked by a nation since the 40's.
    The kids they dance and shake their bones,
    While the politicians are throwing stones,
    And it's all too clear we're on our own,
    Singing ashes, ashes, all fall down...

  29. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    Nonsense. Sanctions are either an act of war or they are not. Period.
    http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white
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  30. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    Is there some reason we should treat "international law" as authoritative on this matter?
    Yeah, because that's how every government in the world handles it.
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  31. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    Yeah, because that's how every government in the world handles it.
    You seem to be equivocating is and ought.

    If somebody argues that sanctions are unethical because they are an act of war, the answer to that needs to be more than just, "No it's not because governments say so."

    I think the word "war" is superfluous to the argument anyway. It's like saying that a crime is somehow worse than what it is if the government calls it a hate crime or an act of terrorism.
    I知 not a libertarian. I知 not advocating everyone run around with no clothes on and smoke pot.

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