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Rights exist regardless if a government recognize them or not.
There is no right to become a citizen? Says who? Why are we free to move where we want, worship as we want, speak as we want, and defend ourselves.... but not free to live where we want without some arbitrary documentation issued by an arbitrary group of people?
The Judge is exactly right. His stance is the principled and consistent one.
Last edited by erowe1; 01-29-2013 at 09:55 AM.
How dare the Judge suggest that people outside of our imaginary lines on a map have natural rights? Doesn't he realize that only Amuricans have the right to move?
Technically he is right, but only in theory... not in reality. Reality is we live in a nation. A nation has borders. The open-borders crowd always buckles when you ask them how to keep criminals out and keep legal immigration in check. In a truly free and sovereign world, yes, I would like to simply walk anywhere and do anything I wanted, regardless of borders and nation states... that ain't never gonna happen y'all!
I wish I lived in The Judge's world, and Ron Paul's world for that matter, but alas... we live in this one. Granting citizenship to 12 million illlegals (whom all data shows would vote overwhelmingly Democrat) would end the two party system forever. We would have a total socialist/communist statist's wet dream.
-Major General Smedley Butler, USMC,There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.
Two-Time Congressional Medal of Honor Winner
Author of, War is a Racket!
- Diogenes of SinopeIt is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours.
The huge problem they won't discuss is the chain family migration from it. That is what 'broke' our system, the 1983 amnesty STILL has family members using preference visas making it almost impossible to enter for those not wealthy from the countries where the majority of people got amnesty. What they should do is totally redo the system and let in those let in with their entire nuclear family (mom, dad, kids) but it is their choice to do it or not, after that, their family members would have to apply separately. What happens is the poorest self select to root themselves up precisely BECAUSE the govt paid education and health care etc makes it worth it, in an unending stream. the incentives are all wrong.
But it is one thing to legalize those here a long time who have been good neighbors and have family here. That is still rewarding bad behavior, but for those here a long time (and I think it should be drafted like that) it is really cruel to send them back. That does not apply to their extended families not here, and it is NOT cruel imho to not reward them with voting. I think a separate, unconvertible, permanent residency for those people should be considered. But no chain migration should stem from it, because that is many times the count of the number of people already here. I don't trust those in congress to actually do it, I expect them to keep the parts of law that says once you are here legally you can change status etc, and to pretend the existing law of change from green cards to citizenship doesn't exist in their discussion. That is what happened last time -- it was downright dishonest with the American people.
"Integrity means having to say things that people don't want to hear & especially to say things that the regime doesn't want to hear.” -Ron Paul
"Bathtub falls and police officers kill more Americans than terrorism, yet we've been asked to sacrifice our most sacred rights for fear of falling victim to it." -Edward Snowden
Have you ever had a mosquito bit you? Next time you do and catch it flex your muscles so it cant escape. It will just get bigger and bigger till it POPS. Think of the state like that mosquito. Maybe if it just keeps getting bigger and bigger one day it will pop. It will leave us with a bad case of lyme disease, but at least it got what was coming to it.
Terminus tela viaticus!
Only 'Merkins have God-given natural rights, because God is an American
You do realize that this is basically what everyone outside of Libertarians says about most liberty-oriented ideals, right? "It sounds good, but we NEED government to do such and such."
I don't care much about "keeping criminals out" because I have absolutely no faith that the current system works any better in that regard than a totally borderless system would. As far as "immigrants voting Democrat" I don't particularly care for that line of thinking either. If the Republicans stop being a party built on fear and bigotry and become a party that embraces Liberty on all fronts, they may actually attract new voters.
Last edited by KingNothing; 01-29-2013 at 10:11 AM.
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Open Borders: A Libertarian Reappraisal or why only dumbasses and cultural marxists are for it.
Cultural Marxism: The Corruption of America
The Property Basis of Rights
Kudos to the Judge for out-libertarian-ing Ron on this issue--although Ron actually wasn't that bad--always cautioning against walls and the police state which are actually being built to keep us in and oppress us further.
If Judge Nap will challenge Rand for the Republican nomination, I'll have a reason to attend my county central committee meetings and keep my voting status current:
http://revolutionpac.com/articles/draft-judge-napolitano-for-president
Because it would be stupid, that's why.
Look, we cannot change how all the people in the world want to live or what kind of government, if any, that they want to have. The best we can do right now is to carve out a piece of the world and live by the rules we want in that small piece. That is what a country should be about and borders separate it from the rest of the world.
It is la la land to believe that there aren't people in this world, and yes, outside our own government, who want the entire damn world under their control and they will stop at nothing to make it so. These people want borders to disappear. That is what all the so-called free trade agreements are about and all the "unions"... African Union, European Union, etc. There are a lot of them and they are just a precursor to the globalists' wet dream of world government.
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Open Borders: A Libertarian Reappraisal or why only dumbasses and cultural marxists are for it.
Cultural Marxism: The Corruption of America
The Property Basis of Rights
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Open Borders: A Libertarian Reappraisal or why only dumbasses and cultural marxists are for it.
Cultural Marxism: The Corruption of America
The Property Basis of Rights
this ignores that people have sums stripped from them without their agreement by govt to pay for things like schools, medical and retirement funds which are over burdened so the quality is terrible. The amounts are too great for the middle class in the areas worst hit by illegal immigration to afford the private schools (about $30,000 per child per year in Los Angeles for a decent one, right now.) So they need the quality of what they are being forced to pay for to stay as good as possible. I DO believe in sovereignty and I do believe a govt has a duty to look out for its citizens above anyone else. How else would you ever have local self determination of government? Note I am speaking of a government, not anarchy, because I do believe in a small government.
Regardless of the philosophical underpinning, I don't think the government of this country can legitimately force its citizens to pay for services and then let unlimited poor people from elsewhere use them. Those who get more in benefits then they pay in do drain what is available, and language is an additional cost. Language is also now cut in most schools until high school, in Los Angeles and then only Spanish is available, typically. It is very difficult to become fluent in ANY language with that, so only kids of those who speak English do NOT come out of the school system bilingual. That is a major market disadvantage, right there.
you can't have open borders and a welfare state, and there is no plan on the table to end the welfare state, to the contrary.
This is one of the topics there has always been a split on here, however, abortion being the other. Some people do believe in sovereignty and the ability of a country to set the rules of entry, some don't. Some believe life begins at conception, some don't. I have never seen anyone convinced of the opposing position.
"Integrity means having to say things that people don't want to hear & especially to say things that the regime doesn't want to hear.” -Ron Paul
"Bathtub falls and police officers kill more Americans than terrorism, yet we've been asked to sacrifice our most sacred rights for fear of falling victim to it." -Edward Snowden
================
Open Borders: A Libertarian Reappraisal or why only dumbasses and cultural marxists are for it.
Cultural Marxism: The Corruption of America
The Property Basis of Rights
So in your world view... we have complete and total open borders, no nation states at all, and all will just be peachy? And you also expect other nations to dissolve their borders as well right? If we don't have a border, we no longer have a country... but I guess from a true Libertarian perspective that is what you would advocate. I am not a libertarian... I am a minarchist... I like having a country with a founding document... and i like defending my country from those would would seek to dissolve it. Globalists around the world are smiling at the fact that Ron Paul supporters like you are playing right into their plans to become borderless and further integrate nations into giant conglomerate corporate states ala the EU and North American Union. No thanks... I like my country with imaginary lines.
The Supreme Court has ruled that the Congressional power to regulate naturalization, from Article 1, Section 8, includes the power to regulate immigration (see, for example, Hampton v. Mow Sun Wong, 426 U.S. 88 [1976]). It would not make sense to allow Congress to pass laws to determine how an immigrant becomes a naturalized resident if the Congress cannot determine how, or even if, that immigrant can come into the country in the first place. Just because the Constitution lacks the word immigration does not mean that it lacks the concept of immigration. -theconstitution.org
Last edited by jllundqu; 01-29-2013 at 10:29 AM.
-Major General Smedley Butler, USMC,There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.
Two-Time Congressional Medal of Honor Winner
Author of, War is a Racket!
- Diogenes of SinopeIt is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours.
There are no crimes against people.
There are only crimes against the state.
And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.
There are no crimes against people.
There are only crimes against the state.
And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.
I agree with this entirely. I think the Judge would agree with you as well. But when you are talking about natural rights, he was right on point. The consistent position here is to dismantle the welfare state to stop luring people in, and then allow anyone who wants to come, to come. If you don't do it in this order, you are asking for destruction. I believe this position is held by both Ron Paul and the Judge.
"And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat
"It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire
The resounding lack of empathy for fellow human beings here is quite unnerving.
I feel very sad for those who will use violence and domination to uphold the archaic concept of a "nation."
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Open Borders: A Libertarian Reappraisal or why only dumbasses and cultural marxists are for it.
Cultural Marxism: The Corruption of America
The Property Basis of Rights
It is not a lack of empathy... it is a matter of property rights. The Judge is spot on in terms of all human beings have natural rights. Put that into the context of a massive welfare state and it gets complicated. If I am forced to pay thru taxation etc for the endless masses that come here illegally, of course I don't want an open border! That would lead to ruin and a complete destruction of my property rights! You can't simultaneously have millions of people flooding the country while an oppressive government says "Oh by the way, we are going to steal from the rest of you to pay for all of them"
If we lived in a world where my property rights were intact and we had a minarchist form of government, you could erase the border, no issues!
-Major General Smedley Butler, USMC,There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.
Two-Time Congressional Medal of Honor Winner
Author of, War is a Racket!
- Diogenes of SinopeIt is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours.
World Government Aficionado's are concerned with individuals and basic human freedom? News to me.
You do realize that just because one entity that may be "bad" holds a belief, that does not necessarily make the belief "bad," don't you?
"You love your wife? Why, you know that Hitler loved his too, don't you, you Nazi sympathizer!"
Last edited by KingNothing; 01-29-2013 at 10:40 AM.
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