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Thread: 70-year-old Charity Told to Stop Feeding Homeless in Seattle

  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by sailingaway View Post
    Are these wrong or just selected (cherry picking) to fit his agenda? Because I don't know him, but this is awful, imho.
    I am willing to accept that the sources he cite, are credible news articles that pertain to actual laws. (Giving him the benefit of doubt). But often times, that's as deep as you need to dig, his article title will easily conflict with the actual content of what he's pointing to. So he definitely cherry picks factoids to fit a story, and then his title/headline will always sound more outrageous (and less believable) than it is.

    So, the link to external sites are not "wrong" facts, just "wrong" or inaccurate when juxtaposed to the headline he's trying to convey.



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  3. #32

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    Well, his facts back up the headline.

    And the city isn't feeding them. Cub scouts and schools have picnics in the park - heck, families bring lunches and share. Is the city going to say no homemade food for anyone, or just for the homeless? I don't like either answer.
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  4. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by sailingaway View Post
    Well, his facts back up the headline.

    And the city isn't feeding them. Cub scouts and schools have picnics in the park - heck, families bring lunches and share. Is the city going to say no homemade food for anyone, or just for the homeless? I don't like either answer.
    The facts back a story that say "you are no longer free to feed everybody, everywhere" (I changed that from anybody, anywhere, as it would easily confuse). But not "feeding homeless is illegal or banned" (even on a local level).

  5. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcchiefs6465 View Post
    Why? The 'park' they are referring to is most likely not a park in the sense of swingsets and children. Where I live they call it a 'park' but it is merely a few picnic tables in open grass. They feed the homeless there every first Sunday of the month.
    I lived outside Seattle for 4 months this past summer, and as I was there I joined a local dodgeball league (used to play competitively) that played every week in a park in downtown seattle. It was a real park with grass, basketball courts, homeless people, all kinds of people...very ghetto.


    Anyway, as far the homeless thing goes, what a lot of people don't realize is a lot of "homeless" people aren't really homeless (they simply beg for money because the average beggar makes more than $50,000 a year doing that) and 90% of the people who are really homeless are capable of getting a job, they simply make enough to survive by not working.

    Unfortunately there is no universal answer that will solve the entire issue, but to continue giving money supporting this trade definitely does not solve it. Handing out food though is not necessarily making the problem worse.
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  6. #35

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    if all the excess food were to e done away with, well the poor would either starve or be government dependent.. i thin we should start with free food program free of government involvement. free county gardens...etc....

  7. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tpoints View Post
    Oh, wait, are you suggesting that we have zero public land, zero public roads too?
    Yup.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tpoints View Post
    And what's so bad about having public parks that "good, innocent, weak and vulnerable" people can't or won't use? People with no business there stay away, let the homeless people be at parks and nobody is bothered. Oh yea, let me guess, you don't want to pay taxes for something you don't use? I get that, but what if the alternative is worse (unless you propose euthanizing or housing them)
    "Public" property always leads to clashes of interest that are resolved politically. This leads to more government power and more factions among the people. Your argument here is simply for YOUR view of how confiscated private property should be used. Such arguments are endless and will be resolved in favor of whoever has the most political clout. The better approach is to get government out of it. Then if you and your friends want to set aside some property to use as a feeding station for vagrants, GREAT! Then the issues will be resolved by market forces, including the will to act charitably with YOUR OWN property.
    The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.

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  8. #37

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    I've heard of this thing happening before. Cities want the homeless pop. to leave so they start forbidding people feed them. I guess Seattles politicians feel their image is more important than feeding the hungry.
    "We do have some differences and our approaches will be different, but that makes him his own person. I mean why should he [Rand] be a clone and do everything and think just exactly as I have. I think it's an opportunity to be independent minded. We are about 99% [the same on issues]." Ron Paul

  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acala View Post
    Yup.



    "Public" property always leads to clashes of interest that are resolved politically. This leads to more government power and more factions among the people. Your argument here is simply for YOUR view of how confiscated private property should be used. Such arguments are endless and will be resolved in favor of whoever has the most political clout. The better approach is to get government out of it. Then if you and your friends want to set aside some property to use as a feeding station for vagrants, GREAT! Then the issues will be resolved by market forces, including the will to act charitably with YOUR OWN property.
    So what do you think about Mountains, Lakes and Rivers? If there were no parks, the wealthy would own all this property. How would the commoners have an opportunity to enjoy them?

  10. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by BAllen View Post
    So what do you think about Mountains, Lakes and Rivers? If there were no parks, the wealthy would own all this property. How would the commoners have an opportunity to enjoy them?
    I own property and I'm not wealthy. My neighbors own property and they aren't wealthy. People can join their wealth together and buy parks for their use. Also, the "wealthy" very well might want to make their property available to others for free (it's called philanthropy and is common) or for a small fee. There are many different ways that people can enjoy mountains etc. without being wealthy and without resorting to government theft and violence. Most of the land in the eastern US is privately owned but people still are able to enjoy mountains, rivers, etc.

    If the only way a particular activity can occur is through government force, then something is wrong with that activity.
    The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.

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  11. #40

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    Sad, I think I got a meal there when I passed through the area.

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  12. #41
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    Really worried eventually I'll stop seeing these signs in the window of some NYC cafe's and restaurants:



    I really recommend joining a local Food Not Bombs chapter, or research and see how many times members of this group have beeb arrested or harassed by the law for feeding the homeless and hungry.
    Last edited by Nirvikalpa; 01-21-2013 at 11:49 AM.

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  13. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by BAllen View Post
    So what do you think about Mountains, Lakes and Rivers? If there were no parks, the wealthy would own all this property. How would the commoners have an opportunity to enjoy them?
    What are you? Crazy? Where did you get the idea that enjoying mountains was a human right?

  14. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcchiefs6465 View Post
    Beauracracy at it's finest. Heaven forbid we stopped paying their salary and they happen upon hard times. I've read a few other cities have the same policy. You are more valuable when you are dependent on the state.
    Thats how its designed. The state doesnt want you to make it on your own. They want you to recieve your government check indefinetly.

  15. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Acala View Post
    I own property and I'm not wealthy. My neighbors own property and they aren't wealthy. People can join their wealth together and buy parks for their use. Also, the "wealthy" very well might want to make their property available to others for free (it's called philanthropy and is common) or for a small fee. There are many different ways that people can enjoy mountains etc. without being wealthy and without resorting to government theft and violence. Most of the land in the eastern US is privately owned but people still are able to enjoy mountains, rivers, etc.

    If the only way a particular activity can occur is through government force, then something is wrong with that activity.
    OK. More libertarian utopia drivel that I once actually tried to sell.
    The notion of privately owned parks is ridiculous.
    And if parks are funded through fees, there is nothing wrong with them.
    But a government is far more reliable to keep a park unspoiled than a corporation.
    And once a park is spoiled, it can be impossible to restore.

    read about Pennsylvania. William Pitt set it up as a wonderful utopia.
    Then his son inherited it, and was already on the edge of debt.
    By the time his son was done running it, it was just like every other colony.

    What are you? Crazy? Where did you get the idea that enjoying mountains was a human right?
    Where did you get the idea that destroying land for profit was a human right?
    Last edited by UWDude; 01-21-2013 at 06:09 PM.
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  16. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by UWDude View Post
    But a government is far more reliable to keep a park unspoiled than a corporation.
    Says who?
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  17. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgt150 View Post
    Says who?
    Because if land is set aside not to be spoiled, it is set aside not to be spoiled, and will be as long as that government is in power. I can't even think of any examples of national parks where miners have been allowed in.

    If it's a corporation, that corporation can legally change its policies, go bankrupt, or decide to develop the land for greater profitability.

    I have also in my camping days, (I don't camp anymore, I backpack) seen the difference between private campgrounds and public ones. Private campgrounds suck, period. They are mostly made for RV's and people that like to go to adult summer camp, complete with carving lessons and junk like that. Yeah it may be more profitable for those people, but some people just want to get away from society, not go live in a different one for a couple of weeks.

    And don't even tell me to buy my own mountains if I love the mountains so much. I would have to buy all the mountains of Olympic National Park to get the wilderness experience.

    The idea of miners or KOA setting up camp in that park is so abhorrent. If this is your idea of paradise, count me out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by UWDude View Post
    Because if land is set aside not to be spoiled, it is set aside not to be spoiled, and will be as long as that government is in power. I can't even think of any examples of national parks where miners have been allowed in.
    You should love Agenda 21 then. Lots of people being robbed of their land so it won't be 'spoiled' by human development.
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  19. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgt150 View Post
    You should love Agenda 21 then. Lots of people being robbed of their land so it won't be 'spoiled' by human development.
    Robbed of their land? Is that how the parks system was established? (Besides the Indians)

    I think you need to learn you some history.
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  20. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by UWDude View Post

    Where did you get the idea that destroying land for profit was a human right?
    I got that idea from the logical extension of capitalism and property, I am allowed to capture, exploit, destroy, and otherwise utilize things I find unless somebody stops me or tells me I cannot.

  21. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tpoints View Post
    I got that idea from the logical extension of capitalism and property, I am allowed to capture, exploit, destroy, and otherwise utilize things I find unless somebody stops me or tells me I cannot.
    Just keep up your arguments. You are doing a good job.
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  22. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by UWDude View Post
    Robbed of their land? Is that how the parks system was established? (Besides the Indians)

    I think you need to learn you some history.
    Well, that's what is happening now and it is aided by the mindset of people like you. Guess it'll be fine for people like you since you get to enjoy a government-guarded nature preserve though when you're a power slave.
    Last edited by sgt150; 01-21-2013 at 07:00 PM.
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  23. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgt150 View Post
    Well, that's what is happening now...
    So? I was talking about the park system.

    and it is aided by the mindset of people like you....
    "You should love Agenda 21 then. Lots of people being robbed...."
    Oh, I get it. You project a mindset onto me, then you claim that is my mindset, then you tell me the mindset you projected onto me is a slave mindset.

    Are you proud of yourself? Do you feel superior now? You made a strawman all by yourself, and changed the topic to fit your little argument. Instead of the National Park System, we are talking about Agenda 21. Pat yourself on the back, give yourself a handshake.

    And I say this in all seriousness:
    Please let your ideas on the park system be loud and clear. People need to know people like you exist.
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  24. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by UWDude View Post
    Oh, I get it. You project a mindset onto me, then you claim that is my mindset, then you tell me the mindset you projected onto me is a slave mindset.

    Are you proud of yourself? Do you feel superior now? You made a strawman all by yourself, and changed the topic to fit your little argument. Instead of the National Park System, we are talking about Agenda 21. Pat yourself on the back, give yourself a handshake.

    And I say this in all seriousness:
    Please let your ideas on the park system be loud and clear. People need to know people like you exist.
    Your words speak for themselves. You got a hard on at a park once upon a time and now you extol the virtues of state owned property. Nobody can preserve nature quite like the state, according to you. It's this type of asinine talk that enables state powergrabs like Agenda 21 to happen. Get over your own biases and quit spewing bullshit, champ.
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  25. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgt150 View Post
    Your words speak for themselves. You got a hard on at a park once upon a time and now you extol the virtues of state owned property. Nobody can preserve nature quite like the state, according to you. It's this type of asinine talk that enables state powergrabs like Agenda 21 to happen. Get over your own biases and quit spewing bullshit, champ.
    Go fuck yourself, champ.
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  26. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by UWDude View Post
    Go fuck yourself, champ.
    Uncalled for. Closing thread.
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  27. #56
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    I just brought it up as a question. I believe free market capitalism works, it's just rarely free. If we had a free market system, housing prices would have already adjusted to the lower wages of Americans, and probably be about 1/3 of their current pricing. I was just curious how the free market could allow those places to be accessible to non wealthy people, since the supply of those desirable areas is so limited, unlike regular housing in the entire country. There's only so much space in the market for mountains, lakes, and rivers. This limited supply makes the property a perpetually high priced item, doesn't it?

  28. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by BAllen View Post
    I just brought it up as a question. I believe free market capitalism works, it's just rarely free. If we had a free market system, housing prices would have already adjusted to the lower wages of Americans, and probably be about 1/3 of their current pricing. I was just curious how the free market could allow those places to be accessible to non wealthy people, since the supply of those desirable areas is so limited, unlike regular housing in the entire country. There's only so much space in the market for mountains, lakes, and rivers. This limited supply makes the property a perpetually high priced item, doesn't it?
    Not if you are buying a small time share in a national park....
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  29. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by UWDude View Post
    OK. More libertarian utopia drivel that I once actually tried to sell.
    The notion of privately owned parks is ridiculous.
    And if parks are funded through fees, there is nothing wrong with them.
    But a government is far more reliable to keep a park unspoiled than a corporation.
    And once a park is spoiled, it can be impossible to restore.

    read about Pennsylvania. William Pitt set it up as a wonderful utopia.
    Then his son inherited it, and was already on the edge of debt.
    By the time his son was done running it, it was just like every other colony.



    Where did you get the idea that destroying land for profit was a human right?
    Government is the worst steward of property. National forest and BLM land are clearcut, strip mined, overgrazed, sprayed with herbicide, and abused in every way by those with the political clout to get special privileges and no interest in the long-term health of the resource.
    The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.

    "Who would be free, themselves must strike the blow." - Byron

    "Who overcomes by force, hath overcome but half his foe." - Milton

  30. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by BAllen View Post
    I just brought it up as a question. I believe free market capitalism works, it's just rarely free. If we had a free market system, housing prices would have already adjusted to the lower wages of Americans, and probably be about 1/3 of their current pricing. I was just curious how the free market could allow those places to be accessible to non wealthy people, since the supply of those desirable areas is so limited, unlike regular housing in the entire country. There's only so much space in the market for mountains, lakes, and rivers. This limited supply makes the property a perpetually high priced item, doesn't it?
    I'm not sure the supply is that limited, given the demand. Even when heavily subsidized, with a few exceptions, Federal park and forest land is barely used by hikers and campers. Vast millions of acres never see a soul. Not really a very efficient use of the resource.

    But if you assume that the supply is very limited, that is MORE reason to allow markets to allocate them. Markets are REALLY good at allocating resources to meet consumer needs. If it were the case that people who like camping happened to all be really poor, and therefore unable to express a demand for camping facilities, then it is true that the market would turn those resources to other uses. But so what? The poor can't afford private airplanes either, but there is no call for government to provide them.

    It is really easy to look to government to force our values on others. But it isn't right.
    The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.

    "Who would be free, themselves must strike the blow." - Byron

    "Who overcomes by force, hath overcome but half his foe." - Milton

  31. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Acala View Post
    Government is the worst steward of property. National forest and BLM land are clearcut, strip mined, overgrazed, sprayed with herbicide, and abused in every way by those with the political clout to get special privileges and no interest in the long-term health of the resource.
    Now you are talking about forest and BLM land.
    I am talking about parks. Are you going to tell me national parks are mismanaged?
    Come to some West Coast natural national parks.

    If it were the case that people who like camping happened to all be really poor, and therefore unable to express a demand for camping facilities, then it is true that the market would turn those resources to other uses. But so what?
    This is the problem with pure Libertarianism.
    It assumes the only important thing is efficient use of resources for economic reasons.
    Last edited by UWDude; 01-23-2013 at 02:21 PM.
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