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Thread: Feminist support combat woman but object to adding draft for females thereafter

  1. #1

    Feminist support combat woman but object to adding draft for females thereafter

    The Feminist Objection to Women in Combat



    http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/arc...combat/272505/


    This week the Pentagon altered its policy prohibiting women from serving in combat roles in the US military. This has generally been seen as a win for feminism by feminists themselves. It's also been seen as a feminist victory by conservative folks like Heather Mac Donald at National Review, who declares with hyperbolic outrage that "the only reason to pursue [the policy of women in combat] is to placate feminism's insatiable and narcissistic drive for absolute official equality between the sexes."

    I'm a feminist myself, and I certainly think that women should have equal access to jobs and career advancement inside the military as well as outside it. And, as the Jezebel article I linked above points out, women are already often in combat situations. Acknowledging this formally just means that they're able to get the same credit for risking their lives that men do.

    Still, while the change is certainly, and deservedly, a win for feminism, it is just as certainly a mixed one. On the one hand, the achievement of equality for women in the military highlights just how successful feminism in the United States has been in one of its primary goals—achieving equality. As Jean Bethke Elshtain argued in Women and War, military combat is, in some sense, the defining male role. Exclusion from combat, has, in turn, been one of the defining traits of femininity. A military policy that recognizes women's participation in, and capacity for, combat, is, then, an important assertion that people are not their gender roles. It shows that women really can, and should be allowed to, do everything and anything that men can.

    The problem is, feminism has never just been about equality. Many feminists have written about the need for women to have the same opportunities as men. But many have also written about the need to criticize male patriarchal values and ideals. And one of the male patriarchal values and ideals that has been consistently criticized and questioned by feminists is war.

    One famous works of pacifist feminism is Virginia Woolf's Three Guineas. In that book, she argues that:
    though many instincts are held more or less in common by both sexes, to fight has always been the man's habit, not the woman's. Law and practice have developed that difference, whether innate or accidental. Scarcely a human being in the course of history has fallen to a woman's rifle; the vast majority of birds and beasts have been killed by you, not by us; and it is difficult to judge what we do not share.

    How then are we to understand your problem, and if we cannot, how can we answer your question, how to prevent war? The answer based upon our experience and our psychology—Why fight?—is not an answer of any value. Obviously there is for you some glory, some necessity, some satisfaction in fighting which we have never felt or enjoyed. Complete understanding could only be achieved by blood transfusion and memory transfusion—a miracle still beyond the reach of science.
    Woolf is, of course, mistaken. As many women soldiers, not to mention women politicians, have shown, women can be every bit as attracted to war as men. The glory, necessity, and satisfaction of fighting is not by any means restricted to one gender.

    But Woolf is also right. The history of combat may not be entirely male, but it is overwhelmingly male. And that fact is not merely an inequality; it is a resource. Yes, you can look at the exclusion of women from combat and say, "This is unfair; women should be allowed to fight." But you can also look at that exclusion and say, "You know, half of humanity has been excluded from going to war. If that many people weren't fighting, maybe that means that fighting is an aberration rather than a necessity."

    Woolf is also correct, I think, to suggest that the glory and necessity of war is often linked to masculinity—to the need to prove one's moral worth as a man. From one perspective, that is also the reason why it's so important that women be allowed in the military and in combat. War is in many ways our standard for moral action. America's status as an ethical nation is linked to its people's willingness to fight and die in righteous wars, as Stanley Hauerwas has argued recently in War and the American Difference.

    If that's the case, if morality is tied to battle, then women too must fight if they are to be valued and honored as moral actors. When war is so central to our moral experience, those who are not warriors cannot be equal. This is why feminist cultural icons like Buffy Summers or Katniss Everdeen are so often warriors. And it's also why equality in the military has been such a vital goal for so many marginalized groups. Black units fighting in the Civil War were a tremendous boost for anti-racism and equality. Similarly, it will be increasingly difficult to justify discrimination against gay people now that they are openly fighting and dying for our country.

    Feminism, then, can draw moral force from the military. But that moral force comes at a price. That price is the moral force itself—or, more precisely, the acquiescence to war as a moral force and a moral standard. For Virginia Woolf, war was to be judged by women's experience—and found wanting. American feminism, on the other hand, seems much more comfortable judging women's experiences in relation to traditionally male standards of empowerment—of which military combat is a particularly iconic example. In popular discussions, feminist criticism of militarism and war has largely been lost. As a result, we have one fewer way to protest when our sons, and our daughters too, are sacrificed on the moral altar of war.



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  3. #2
    I'm against draft for women, too.

    I'm against draft for anybody.
    "Integrity means having to say things that people don't want to hear & especially to say things that the regime doesn't want to hear.” -Ron Paul

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  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by sailingaway View Post
    I'm against draft for women, too.

    I'm against draft for anybody.
    Ya me too, but I find the whole thing amusing.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Agorism View Post
    Ya me too, but I find the whole thing amusing.
    Double standards don't amuse me at all. Yeah, it ain't right for some portion of the population to be denied cherries. But just because they were denied cherries back in the olden days before I was born doesn't mean I need to be coerced into pitting their cherries, just so they can not only have the cherries their mothers were denied, but they don't have to deal with the seeds when they eat them.

    You want cherries, have cherries. But when you ask for them, expect the pits to come right in the package.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You only want the freedoms that will undermine the nation and lead to the destruction of liberty.

  6. #5
    Are women now going to be expected to register for selective service (AKA "we won't call it a draft until we actually have to use it")?
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    This is getting silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It started silly.
    T.S. Eliot's The Hollow Men

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  7. #6
    It probably is going to be a lawsuit on why women don't have to register with selective service. The term the democrats used to get a majority of the women voters. "War on Women" might just become the real thing thanks to their president.
    War; everything in the world wrong, evil and immoral combined into one and multiplied by millions.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by nobody's_hero View Post
    Are women now going to be expected to register for selective service (AKA "we won't call it a draft until we actually have to use it")?
    They're avoiding it so far. And these proponents of 'equality' want to keep it that way. Seems it's something other than equality these people are trying to sell...
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You only want the freedoms that will undermine the nation and lead to the destruction of liberty.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by nobody's_hero View Post
    Are women now going to be expected to register for selective service (AKA "we won't call it a draft until we actually have to use it")?
    It will be selective, they will select the poor.
    Best of luck in life.



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  11. #9
    Im all for equal rights. When can I use a women's locker room? Its time we break the chains of sexism!
    Ron Paul let the cat out of the bag.

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  12. #10
    Or a male could file the lawsuit.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by AGRP View Post
    Im all for equal rights. When can I use a women's locker room? Its time we break the chains of sexism!
    A gay guy can shower with a GI but no no straight men and women are out of luck in that department. That is now a gay only special priviledge......
    War; everything in the world wrong, evil and immoral combined into one and multiplied by millions.



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